What is your no. 1 wanted technical spec/data?

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Ezio

The things i like about the E92 that the new one will not have is. A high redline, and a distinctive engine sound over other BMW models.

A bit early to conclude isn't it???

Judging from the PCH video, it certainly doesn't sound like any other current gen BMW.

And, even though the E9x M3 might have a impressive soundtrack inside the car, from the outside it's quite unimpressive. Go to a track on a track day and listen to the cars driving by. The E9x M3 has a exhaust note that never seems to reach a high RPM and sounds allmost like a lazy cross plane crank V8, just like any other V8.

Redline will most likely (like 99,99999% certain) be lower than the current M3 engine, but a 7500+ redline is still a high(ish) rpm. And the straight six will sound racier and more exotic than the V8 burble from the current gen

All IMHO of course

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by Boss330

A bit early to conclude isn't it???

Judging from the PCH video, it certainly doesn't sound like any other current gen BMW.

And, even though the E9x M3 might have a impressive soundtrack inside the car, from the outside it's quite unimpressive. Go to a track on a track day and listen to the cars driving by. The E9x M3 has a exhaust note that never seems to reach a high RPM and sounds allmost like a lazy cross plane crank V8, just like any other V8.

Redline will most likely (like 99,99999% certain) be lower than the current M3 engine, but a 7500+ redline is still a high(ish) rpm. And the straight six will sound racier and more exotic than the V8 burble from the current gen

All IMHO of course

Well i disagree on the E92 v8 sounding like any other V8. people here will agree with me on that. Its a 4.0L high revving V8, very small. It does sound like a V8, but not really a typical V8. that you would find in a Muscle car. Although the new M3 could sound more exotic, i agree! but from what i heard that in that video. it sounds like shit.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Ezio

Well i disagree on the E92 v8 sounding like any other V8. people here will agree with me on that. Its a 4.0L high revving V8, very small. It does sound like a V8, but not really a typical V8. that you would find in a Muscle car. Although the new M3 could sound more exotic, i agree! but from what i heard that in that video. it sounds like shit.

My point is that sound is subjective. To me the E9x M3 doesn't sound very exotic, it doesn't sound bad, not at all. But that V8 burble just reminds me to much of a Suburban and not enough of a Ferrari... But, that's me. To you, and many others it sounds great, which is good.

To me, the new M3/M4 has a much more racy and high pitched sound, more in line with what a M3 traditionally has sounded like.

I disagree with a statement that concludes it sounds like sh!t. Both because it's based on a poor recording but first and foremost because that's YOUR opinion, and not mine and many others.

It's not like there is universal agreement that the E9x M3 sounds great and that the new M3/M4 sounds bad...

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by Boss330

My point is that sound is subjective. To me the E9x M3 doesn't sound very exotic, it doesn't sound bad, not at all. But that V8 burble just reminds me to much of a Suburban and not enough of a Ferrari... But, that's me. To you, and many others it sounds great, which is good.

To me, the new M3/M4 has a much more racy and high pitched sound, more in line with what a M3 traditionally has sounded like.

I disagree with a statement that concludes it sounds like sh!t. Both because it's based on a poor recording but first and foremost because that's YOUR opinion, and not mine and many others.

It's not like there is universal agreement that the E9x M3 sounds great and that the new M3/M4 sounds bad...

I think the problem with you is that you haven't really heard the right exhaust system with this V8. I will make this statement clear. You can make a M3 sound more muscle than European, i will agree with you on that.

I wanted to share with you this video, its more high pitched, and way more Ferrari than suburban.

not saying its exotic, but its not a suburban!

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Ezio

I think the problem with you is that you haven't really heard the right exhaust system with this V8. I will make this statement clear. You can make a M3 sound more muscle than European, i will agree with you on that.

I wanted to share with you this video, its more high pitched, and way more Ferrari than suburban.

not saying its exotic, but its not a suburban!

Sounds AWESOME

Still has that burble at idle though

But, it seems like it needs an exhaust to come alive (due to legal noise requirements for the OEM suppliers). Let's not forget that aftermarket exhaust on the next gen will be available as well. Not fair to compare a stock vs aftermarket race exhaust

[solstice]

Interesting result so far. It's nice to see that weight is more of interest than power indicating that agility is more important than big power to the M3 people. But it also seems that performance is more important than visceral feel and communication since power to weight is of much more interest than steering ( no. 1 connection to the car ) and turbo system ( throttle response ).

[solstice]

Deleted. Wrong thread.

[Randy M]

I'd really like to know whether ZCP will be available right off the bat as well.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by solstice

Interesting result so far. It's nice to see that weight is more of interest than power indicating that agility is more important than big power to the M3 people. But it also seems that performance is more important than visceral feel and communication since power to weight is of much more interest than steering ( no. 1 connection to the car ) and turbo system ( throttle response ).

The steering type simply does not tell the whole story of steering. There are a variety of suppliers making very good electric steering systems for a variety of OEMs. EPS is here to stay, both for sports cars and many other segments. It is already possible to make it very close to as good as the best HPS systems and it will continue to get better. I'm just not too concerned about this to worry much about it.

OTOH there is no mistaking power to weight ratio...

[Robin_NL]

I voted weight, because power/weight doesn't say anything irl if the power is @ 8300rpm and 'no torque' whatsoever below 4000rpm....

First get rid of the overweight the E9x M3 is suffering from.

Originally Posted by Boss330

My point is that sound is subjective. To me the E9x M3 doesn't sound very exotic, it doesn't sound bad, not at all. But that V8 burble just reminds me to much of a Suburban and not enough of a Ferrari... But, that's me. To you, and many others it sounds great, which is good.

To me, the new M3/M4 has a much more racy and high pitched sound, more in line with what a M3 traditionally has sounded like.

I disagree with a statement that concludes it sounds like sh!t. Both because it's based on a poor recording but first and foremost because that's YOUR opinion, and not mine and many others.

It's not like there is universal agreement that the E9x M3 sounds great and that the new M3/M4 sounds bad...

Cheers
Robin

[solstice]

Originally Posted by swamp2

The steering type simply does not tell the whole story of steering. There are a variety of suppliers making very good electric steering systems for a variety of OEMs. EPS is here to stay, both for sports cars and many other segments. It is already possible to make it very close to as good as the best HPS systems and it will continue to get better. I'm just not too concerned about this to worry much about it.

OTOH there is no mistaking power to weight ratio...

Yeah, just different top preferences I guess. I have zero concerns that power to weight will be more than sufficient. While EPS is the future and there are good systems BMW has still to show a system that meets or exceeds their best HPS systems where they have decades of proof of their abilities. I also think you will have hard to find anyone who will say that even the best EPS systems hasn't lost something in relation to their HPS predecessor. That goes for Porsche as well. It's good to see that there are enthusiast like yourself though that has confidence that BMW has now created an EPS equal or better in feel to at least the E9X M3.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by solstice

I also think you will have hard to find anyone who will say that even the best EPS systems hasn't lost something in relation to their HPS predecessor. That goes for Porsche as well.

Many are reporting that Porsche has hit a home run with very little if anything lost to HPS. Unfortunately I've yet to drive one myself, let along be able to drive one hard...

Originally Posted by solstice

It's good to see that there are enthusiast like yourself though that has confidence that BMW has now created an EPS equal or better in feel to at least the E9X M3.

That is a stretch and not what I said. First of all no OEMs make the EPS, they are from Tier 1 suppliers. Secondly the steering on the E9X is good but has its flaws. I don't think I can personally quite give it a 9 or 10 out of 10 rating. I didn't spend enough time with my E46 M3 but I think the E46 had better steering.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Many are reporting that Porsche has hit a home run with very little if anything lost to HPS. Unfortunately I've yet to drive one myself, let along be able to drive one hard...


That is a stretch and not what I said. First of all no OEMs make the EPS, they are from Tier 1 suppliers. Secondly the steering on the E9X is good but has its flaws. I don't think I can personally quite give it a 9 or 10 out of 10 rating. I didn't spend enough time with my E46 M3 but I think the E46 had better steering.

In regards to Porsche, in pretty much all reviews I've read the comment is that it's a very good EPS system but not as good as the predecessor's HPS system.

I think BMW and Porsche source the steering HW from the same supplier but tune the SW by themselves. Porsche has proven that they can make an acceptable EPS, BMW has IMO not. If the F8X has EPS I would think this will change but until we've seen it I will be concerned and would like to know as soon as possible what to expect. If it's HPS I'm confident it will be awesome. The presumable lighter weight should also help in this regard.

[M3/4 life]

Power to weight!

[Transfer]

Turbo setup and cooling. This will define track days.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by solstice

In regards to Porsche, in pretty much all reviews I've read the comment is that it's a very good EPS system but not as good as the predecessor's HPS system.

I think BMW and Porsche source the steering HW from the same supplier but tune the SW by themselves. Porsche has proven that they can make an acceptable EPS, BMW has IMO not. If the F8X has EPS I would think this will change but until we've seen it I will be concerned and would like to know as soon as possible what to expect. If it's HPS I'm confident it will be awesome. The presumable lighter weight should also help in this regard.

I'd be willing to place a very large wager it won't be HPS. There are so many reasons for this belief.

The Porsche EPS supplier is ZF. Multiple accounts I have read indicate there is basically no practical difference between this and their prior HPS.

Also, again, it is not fair to assume that just because BMW uses HPS that it will by default be "awesome".

[solstice]

It's absolutely not by default that BMW HPS is awesome. The M5 is proof enough, still I've driven it and it's miles better than the EPS F10 I owned. And this is not just me. Here's another view of the M5's steering:

"Here's what Mike Febbo had to say: "Did BMW have to try to make the steering this numb? They must have hired someone from outside the company to teach them to dumb down a car like this. Normal BMW steering is like running your hands over the ground -- you feel all the buildup in lateral load, you feel the weight jacking in front. None of that is here in the F10 M5." Febbo and I aren't alone in our assessment. From Scott Evans: "Apparently, even the M division can't do much with BMW's new power steering system. It's comparatively numb and oddly weighted, too light in lesser modes and too heavy in hard-core mode."

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...s/viewall.html

I still think the M3's steering will be awesome if it's HPS, since well, it's an M3. With EPS it's going to be as good as BMW can muster with EPS. Will that be good enough? We'll see and I hope so since I do agree that EPS while not a certain is by far the most likely.

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I'd be willing to place a very large wager it won't be HPS. There are so many reasons for this belief.

The Porsche EPS supplier is ZF. Multiple accounts I have read indicate there is basically no practical difference between this and their prior HPS.

Also, again, it is not fair to assume that just because BMW uses HPS that it will by default be "awesome".

Interestingly, BMW offer two systems in F30. The 'Servotronic' by ZF and the 'VSS' by ThyssenKrupp Presta. Out of the two the VSS is the better for 'feel'. So hopefully BMW won't follow Porsche and will use the ThyssenKrupp souced system.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

Interestingly, BMW offer two systems in F30. The 'Servotronic' by ZF and the 'VSS' by ThyssenKrupp Presta. Out of the two the VSS is the better for 'feel'. So hopefully BMW won't follow Porsche and will use the ThyssenKrupp souced system.

I guess I'd say the opposite. It appears that the Porsche ZF system is one of or the best on the market presently. The new M4 can use a system of an even newer and improved design from ZF. To me the obvious conclusion here is that the ZF system BMW chose was simply a lower cost, lower end and system less focused on the requirements of the enthusiast. That goes for both the hardware and software which is extremely important in such a system. The success of the Porsche system leads me to hope BMW uses a very similar one regardless of whether there is a ThyssenKrupp system better than a crappy ZF one.

Also is "Servotronic" synonymous with EPS? Current generation of the E9X M3 have Servotronic but don't have EPS.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I guess I'd say the opposite. It appears that the Porsche ZF system is one of or the best on the market presently. The new M4 can use a system of an even newer and improved design from ZF. To me the obvious conclusion here is that the ZF system BMW chose was simply a lower cost, lower end and system less focused on the requirements of the enthusiast. That goes for both the hardware and software which is extremely important in such a system. The success of the Porsche system leads me to hope BMW uses a very similar one regardless of whether there is a ThyssenKrupp system better than a crappy ZF one.

Also is "Servotronic" synonymous with EPS? Current generation of the E9X M3 have Servotronic but don't have EPS.

Servotronic is variable steering assist, mostly speed sensitive. The E9X M3 has it on it's HPS. EPS is called Servoelectric by ZF, I would guess being all electric it has Servotronic like functionality by default.

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I guess I'd say the opposite. It appears that the Porsche ZF system is one of or the best on the market presently. The new M4 can use a system of an even newer and improved design from ZF. To me the obvious conclusion here is that the ZF system BMW chose was simply a lower cost, lower end and system less focused on the requirements of the enthusiast. That goes for both the hardware and software which is extremely important in such a system. The success of the Porsche system leads me to hope BMW uses a very similar one regardless of whether there is a ThyssenKrupp system better than a crappy ZF one.

Also is "Servotronic" synonymous with EPS? Current generation of the E9X M3 have Servotronic but don't have EPS.

Well ZF don't make a different models for each manufacturer. You can get the 'Porsche' ZF Servoelectric in the F30 today. In BMW format it sucks.

As we know, steering feel is dependant on many other factors including general design of pivot points, arm lengths, castor camber, even steering wheel size, etc. BMW's are primarily designed to be comfy, so the design is less performance orientated than say a sports car brand might get away with (i.e. Porsche). P's entry level cars are on par with BMW M cars in terms of compromise and engineering.

The VSS in the same F30 application is significantly better than the ZF system.

As I'm pretty confident M3/M4 will share general geometry of it's lesser siblings, VSS seems to be starting off in the right direction.

So can't see how because a rear engined sports car has successfully implemented a ZF steering rack, that ZF are the best.

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by solstice

Servotronic is variable steering assist, mostly speed sensitive. The E9X M3 has it on it's HPS. EPS is called Servoelectric by ZF, I would guess being all electric it has Servotronic like functionality by default.

I used Servotronic, as that is the nomenclature BMW use for the ZF Servoelectric. OEM's don't like you knowing they buy thier stuff from a parts bin, and had minimal input into it