Bootmod3: Stage 2 Review

[chewbakam4]

Originally Posted by F80Paul

I think what he was saying is that if you are running a JB4 and considering flash tune then keep in mind if you already have ZCP then you already have a better flash tune working for you than non-ZCP.

That said, I have a ZCP and JB4 and when I got the BM3 it make a big difference. Nobody is talking about things like load targets. Those changes alone make the car behave much better on high boost.

How are you using your combined setup? Any details?

[dmk08]

Originally Posted by F80Paul

I think what he was saying is that if you are running a JB4 and considering flash tune then keep in mind if you already have ZCP then you already have a better flash tune working for you than non-ZCP.

That said, I have a ZCP and JB4 and when I got the BM3 it make a big difference. Nobody is talking about things like load targets. Those changes alone make the car behave much better on high boost.

Do you have a before and after dyno of your zcp and then bm3? This is what we all want to see.

[F80Paul]

Originally Posted by chewbakam4

How are you using your combined setup? Any details?

I'm using a modified BM3 stage 2 that targets about 22psi with a taper. Then on the JB4 side I'm targeting 26-27psi with meth injection. 2016 F80 ZCP, stock except DP's, CP's and drop in filters. 93octane + boostjuice

[F80Paul]

Originally Posted by dmk08

Do you have a before and after dyno of your zcp and then bm3? This is what we all want to see.

Very soon. The closest Dynojet is 2 hours from me.

[chewbakam4]

Are you using 100% meth or blending?

[F80Paul]

Originally Posted by chewbakam4

Are you using 100% meth or blending?

I've used 50/50 up to about 80/20 meth/water.. I could not tell a big difference. I'll test this on the dyno, 50/50 vs 100% to find out for sure. I am also ordering some cm7 nozzles as I suspect they will work better than cm5's when running 100%.

Some E85 would also be great but I don't have a station near me unfortunately.

[CaryTheLabelGuy]

Originally Posted by F80Paul

I'm using a modified BM3 stage 2 that targets about 22psi with a taper. Then on the JB4 side I'm targeting 26-27psi with meth injection. 2016 F80 ZCP, stock except DP's, CP's and drop in filters. 93octane + boostjuice

Timing is a little rough on this run. Do you have any more for us to look at?

Either the DME is pulling timing or the timing tables aren't smoothed properly. Being that you're probably using the BM3 canned tune as your base, I'm betting the DME is pulling timing. Timing looks like it recovers as boost starts to taper down and the engine traverses past peak VE (where it's most susceptible to knock).

How are your fuel trims looking (include them in your next datalog screenshot). ? You should increase your meth to at least 80% and see how timing looks or lower peak boost a bit.

[F80Paul]

Originally Posted by CaryTheLabelGuy

Timing is a little rough on this run. Do you have any more for us to look at?

Either the DME is pulling timing or the timing tables aren't smoothed properly. Being that you're probably using the BM3 canned tune as your base, I'm betting the DME is pulling timing. Timing looks like it recovers as boost starts to taper down and the engine traverses past peak VE (where it's most susceptible to knock).

How are your fuel trims looking (include them in your next datalog screenshot). ? You should increase your meth to at least 80% and see how timing looks or lower peak boost a bit.

Here is a 3rd, 4th, 5th gear pull to show a different perspective. Trims included this time. I want to try cm7's with 100% meth to see if timing improves. I agree timing would be better if I target a psi or two down but the car felt strongest and smooth at this boost level. When I get on the dyno I'm going to get a BM3 custom tune as well as take a few baselines like stock, stock+JB4, BM3 OTS + JB4, etc. then see what can be improved with a custom flash.

[alz0rz]

Originally Posted by 1FastS4

Comparing HEX Tuning to any "random tuner" is like comparing an NBA player to a random person on a basketball court with hightops and a ball looking for a pick up game.

I don't see random tuners developing tools that makes their product distributable through a dealer network, engineering multiple stage levels for various hardware upgrades and fuel levels, offering MAP switching capabilities, supporting the community with some of the best customer service this forum has ever seen while educating people even if you don't own their product, while consistently proving themselves with dyno plots and timeslips that show similar results on cars even when on opposite sides of the country.

I'm willing to bet that none of that sounds like a one trick pony to anyone who doesn't have a BM3 avatar under their username.

If you think that the concept of creating one tune that can be sold to hundreds or thousands of different customers automatically makes it less effective, then someone should break the news to BMW that they're doing it wrong too!

But if you honestly feel that you or your local tuner can out calibrate and out perform what you negatively refer to as "canned" or "off the shelf", then by all means take full advantage of what BM3 offers, just know that doesn't make your assessment of another brands product any more credible or true.

AMEN.

[dmk08]

Originally Posted by 1FastS4

It's not worth developing a brain bleed overthinking it.

The short version is that Flash Tunes yield identical results on ZCP and non-ZCP cars, period.

And you only see slightly better results with the JB4 on the ZCP because the factory ZCP calibrations from BMW is like having a decent "back end flash" to begin with.

JB4 = people who are intimidated by flash tuning, #causewarranty or who developed an ethanol addiction, #causecheap way to increase effective octane rating.

BM3 = people who are intrigued by the idea of custom tuning, like datalogging, and the future of open source file sharing #likecobb

HEX = people who want something turn key right out of the box and don't see themselves ever going beyond common bolt ons #causesimple and effective.

I dont understand this. Why isn't BM3 the answer for scenario 2 and 3? The OTS tunes are comparable to Hex for a much cheaper price AND more features. Once again not sure why anyone would still buy a Hex tune at this point.

[1FastS4]

Originally Posted by dmk08

I dont understand this. Why isn't BM3 the answer for scenario 2 and 3? The OTS tunes are comparable to Hex for a much cheaper price AND more features. Once again not sure why anyone would still buy a Hex tune at this point.

Haven't seen the comparables yet, plain and simple.

BM3 created an interesting platform with some cool options, but from the set it and forget it standpoint, the HEX Stages are still setting the standard with power and features. It also helps that the have well over a year of reviews and mostly excellent customer feedback.

[dmk08]

Originally Posted by 1FastS4

Haven't seen the comparables yet, plain and simple.

BM3 created an interesting platform with some cool options, but from the set it and forget it standpoint, the HEX Stages are still setting the standard with power and features. It also helps that the have well over a year of reviews and mostly excellent customer feedback.

What do you mean you have not seen the "comparables"? They are all over this forum?

[CaryTheLabelGuy]

Originally Posted by chewbakam4

Look its nothing to do with me being this or that. You're saying the same thing now, bmw did more with zcp so JB can do better on a zcp car. Why? Because of everything else they did in the flash. They didn't just give you 2psi more. That's all I'm talking about but no internet argument was ever won so I'll walk away here.

I've been saying the same thing over and over again. You just aren't comprehending what I've been saying, until now.

Anyway.........have a good weekend.

[CaryTheLabelGuy]

Originally Posted by 1FastS4

Haven't seen the comparables yet, plain and simple.

BM3 created an interesting platform with some cool options, but from the set it and forget it standpoint, the HEX Stages are still setting the standard with power and features. It also helps that the have well over a year of reviews and mostly excellent customer feedback.

Ehh. If you're gonna flash, BM3 is the best option and the cheapest. Sorry, but it's true.

[1FastS4]

Originally Posted by CaryTheLabelGuy

Ehh. If you're gonna flash, BM3 is the best option and the cheapest. Sorry, but it's true.

Based on what?

For someone like you, I'm sure you'd be using it for the ability to custom tune. That great for a limited number of people with the skill set to do so, but if you're not interested in custom tuning and don't need data-logging, there's just no other benefit than the lower price.

When looking at both HEX and BM3 for just using existing Stage Level tunes, HEX dynos, timeslips, and customer reviews are top shelf.

[CaryTheLabelGuy]

Originally Posted by 1FastS4

Based on what?

For someone like you, I'm sure you'd be using it for the ability to custom tune. That great for a limited number of people with the skill set to do so, but if you're not interested in custom tuning and don't need data-logging, there's just no other benefit than the lower price.

When looking at both HEX and BM3 for just using existing Stage Level tunes, HEX dynos, timeslips, and customer reviews are top shelf.

Question: what does the HEX tune do that BM3 can't, other than cost you more money?

[BMW M4 PWR]

Originally Posted by CaryTheLabelGuy

Question: what does the HEX tune do that BM3 can't, other than cost you more money?

Do'h!

[1FastS4]

Originally Posted by CaryTheLabelGuy

Question: what does the HEX tune do that BM3 can't, other than cost you more money?

It's not about what BM3 "can't" do, because the concept of open source and customization has a lot of potential. No one's disputing that.

It's about comparing what's currently available for customers who want turn key, ready-set-go, install and enjoy. And so far VF / HEX offers the most right out of the box, or as people like to say, "off the shelf".

They have the most authentic ZCP/GTS features, best power on pump fuel, fastest stock turbo timeslips with just bolt ons (no water meth/port injection/ethanol/etc...), most Stage Level/MAP options, over a year and a half of customer reviews and feedback to rely on, and arguably some of the best customer service and community support this forum has ever seen.

For the set it and forget it customer who doesn't want customization or need datalogging, it's a few hundred dollars extra for the most complete product. Cheaper doesn't mean better, and for some people paying a little more upfront is more valuable than spending your time and effort customizing it yourself or paying the difference to a 3rd party.

[Sleeper]

Originally Posted by 1FastS4

It's not about what BM3 "can't" do, because the concept of open source and customization has a lot of potential. No one's disputing that.

It's about comparing what's currently available for customers who want turn key, ready-set-go, install and enjoy. And so far VF / HEX offers the most right out of the box, or as people like to say, "off the shelf".

They have the most authentic ZCP/GTS features, best power on pump fuel, fastest stock turbo timeslips with just bolt ons (no water meth/port injection/ethanol/etc...), most Stage Level/MAP options, over a year and a half of customer reviews and feedback to rely on, and arguably some of the best customer service and community support this forum has ever seen.

For the set it and forget it customer who doesn't want customization or need datalogging, it's a few hundred dollars extra for the most complete product. Cheaper doesn't mean better, and for some people paying a little more upfront is more valuable than spending your time and effort customizing it yourself or paying the difference to a 3rd party.

Sorry man, not buying it. Good for you for buying VF and I'm sure it's an excellent product, but your arguments are sitting on a pretty thin base.

- most authentic GTS features - based on what? You listening to YouTube clips?

- best power on pump fuel - based on what? Did you flash VF then an equivalent BM3 map same day while running your car on the dyno for both tunes? Don't forget, VF targets more boost than BM3. Different tuning strategies, but I know what I would prefer.

- most stage levels - sure, if you're talking OTS maps. BM3 provides endless map options for every stage, mod level, and fuel type.

I'm not disputing that VF has a great product, as does Burger, as does BM3. Each tuning solution has its merits. But your passionate championing of VF just needs to be toned down. You may not have an angle, but it sure comes across as aggressive purchase justification and sales pitching.

Anyway, enjoy your tune and VF's service. I'm sure your car is quick.

[M-Pilot]

Originally Posted by 1FastS4

It's not about what BM3 "can't" do, because the concept of open source and customization has a lot of potential. No one's disputing that.

It's about comparing what's currently available for customers who want turn key, ready-set-go, install and enjoy. And so far VF / HEX offers the most right out of the box, or as people like to say, "off the shelf".

They have the most authentic ZCP/GTS features, best power on pump fuel, fastest stock turbo timeslips with just bolt ons (no water meth/port injection/ethanol/etc...), most Stage Level/MAP options, over a year and a half of customer reviews and feedback to rely on, and arguably some of the best customer service and community support this forum has ever seen.

For the set it and forget it customer who doesn't want customization or need datalogging, it's a few hundred dollars extra for the most complete product. Cheaper doesn't mean better, and for some people paying a little more upfront is more valuable than spending your time and effort customizing it yourself or paying the difference to a 3rd party.

You are making it sound like every bm3 customer has to custom tune their DME or datalog. This is not true. These are just additional benefits of bm3. All the things you listed to describe VF such as turn key, ready-set-go, install and enjoy, aka OTS tunes are already available for bm3 as well. And I'm pretty sure most of bm3 customers are "set it forget it" type of people. I don't have either of these tunes and I don't favor either of them in terms of OTS tunes. However, all the features you mentioned above including ZCP/GTS features, OTS tune, etc are all available in bm3 as well.

[CaryTheLabelGuy]

Originally Posted by 1FastS4

It's not about what BM3 "can't" do, because the concept of open source and customization has a lot of potential. No one's disputing that.

It's about comparing what's currently available for customers who want turn key, ready-set-go, install and enjoy. And so far VF / HEX offers the most right out of the box, or as people like to say, "off the shelf".

They have the most authentic ZCP/GTS features, best power on pump fuel, fastest stock turbo timeslips with just bolt ons (no water meth/port injection/ethanol/etc...), most Stage Level/MAP options, over a year and a half of customer reviews and feedback to rely on, and arguably some of the best customer service and community support this forum has ever seen.

For the set it and forget it customer who doesn't want customization or need datalogging, it's a few hundred dollars extra for the most complete product. Cheaper doesn't mean better, and for some people paying a little more upfront is more valuable than spending your time and effort customizing it yourself or paying the difference to a 3rd party.

It feels like you have a vested interest in VF's tunes.

I'm not trying to hurt anybody or any company, but what you're saying is garbage. There is a place for both VF and BM3 in this market and I hope the best for you and VF, but stop with the grandstanding in BM3's threads already. Maybe you guys should re-think your sales strategy- it looks a bit desperate.

[Irishace]

I would be interested to find out of the HEX tune has solved the throttle blade closures at WOT, particularly in the 2015 and Non-ZCP cars. We all know that BM3 has resolved this horrible tuning flaw from the factory but if VF has not solved it in their tune, its going to be a far worse tune than BM3 by a long ways. This does not even consider the total lack of features it offers along with its materially higher price tag.

To each his own I guess.