Meth Controller with Flash Only

[CloudVIII]

For those of you running meth with flash only, what controller are you using and how do you have it set up to ensure safety?

Thanks in advance!!!

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

JB4 with a back end flash is a great solution for meth..

You let JB4 control meth. You can also setup a full flash and then the JB4 is only there as a meth controller and dynamically adds boost when meth starts flowing.

Mike

[F80Paul]

I will post later when I’m back to a computer and can post photos. I use a Torqbyte controller and have developed a safety mechanism that will open the EWG’s and dump boost if there is a condition where the WMI pump current either goes too low(tank empty or leak) or too high (line or filter clog).

The safest thing with meth injection is a proper tune and a very solid install using quality lines, fittings, pumps, and controllers. I’ll share more of my experiences later wen I can.

[azn_fcuk]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

JB4 with a back end flash is a great solution for meth..

You let JB4 control meth. You can also setup a full flash and then the JB4 is only there as a meth controller and dynamically adds boost when meth starts flowing.

Mike

I inquired about that with Terry,
unless your running MHD, the JB4 hasnt been proven to work with other BEF's....

Map 7 is apparently the map to use, I wont have a chance to test and log until spring.

I believe Aquamist is running a controller that also integrates with the car, but I havent done much research, I hope someone can also chime in.

[CloudVIII]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

JB4 with a back end flash is a great solution for meth..

You let JB4 control meth. You can also setup a full flash and then the JB4 is only there as a meth controller and dynamically adds boost when meth starts flowing.

Mike

I am running JB4 with BEF via MHD. Still seems like there is issues reporting tq correctly and having clutch slip.

I don't want to have to go to upgrade clutches to run this way when flash only guys don't seem to have issue. Looking at all options still so just researching.

Want a reliable 650hp/tq think flash with E40 maybe the way to go

[F80Paul]

Originally Posted by CloudVIII

I am running JB4 with BEF via MHD. Still seems like there is issues reporting tq correctly and having clutch slip.

I don't want to have to go to upgrade clutches to run this way when flash only guys don't seem to have issue. Looking at all options still so just researching.

Want a reliable 650hp/tq think flash with E40 maybe the way to go

If you already have a BMS meth kit and want to run full flash with the JB4 in map 0 I have a way to do it. If you want something that allows you to map meth flow by boost/rpm or injector duty/boost/rpm you need a Torqbyte or Aquamist respectively.

[CloudVIII]

Originally Posted by F80Paul

If you already have a BMS meth kit and want to run full flash with the JB4 in map 0 I have a way to do it. If you want something that allows you to map meth flow by boost/rpm or injector duty/boost/rpm you need a Torqbyte or Aquamist respectively.

For safety though you would have to splice into the ewg wiring?

Are you familiar with snow performance controllers? I am just running their pump and have a local supplier.

Thanks in advance!

[F80Paul]

Originally Posted by CloudVIII

For safety though you would have to splice into the ewg wiring?

Are you familiar with snow performance controllers? I am just running their pump and have a local supplier.

Thanks in advance!

You can use the EWG portion of the JB4 harness to tap the EWG signal wires. That portion of the harness is also sold separately if you don’t want to splice your JB4 harness. To do this you need a controller that will be able to trigger two relays when the meth pump current draw goes below or above a set point. The Torqbyte has this feature.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by CloudVIII

I am running JB4 with BEF via MHD. Still seems like there is issues reporting tq correctly and having clutch slip.

I don't want to have to go to upgrade clutches to run this way when flash only guys don't seem to have issue. Looking at all options still so just researching.

Want a reliable 650hp/tq think flash with E40 maybe the way to go

You set the clamping torque in the back end flash map. Maybe you just need to raise it? I've got a few customers pushing 550-560whp on the stock clutch packs with it with and not heard of any slippage. A few had slippage with the stock back end flash and added the BMS back end flash to resolve slippage.

I know MHD is working on raising their internal torque limiter cap so maybe that will help a bit. Do you have the ZCP trans flash? That also makes a big difference.

Mike

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by F80Paul

You can use the EWG portion of the JB4 harness to tap the EWG signal wires. That portion of the harness is also sold separately if you don’t want to splice your JB4 harness. To do this you need a controller that will be able to trigger two relays when the meth pump current draw goes below or above a set point. The Torqbyte has this feature.

Won't that just put the car in limp mode? If you just want to hard limp mode have your controller send a bogus signal to the TMAP sensor signal or something to trigger a limp. Overall like a rudimentary way to go about things considering how gracefully the JB4 can handle it if setup properly. I know they have a new safety setting that lets you use the JB4 in flash only mode where it only controls WMI and triggers a safety, and does zero tuning, if that is what you're going for.

Mike

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

For those that missed it another JB4 feature they recently added is an in dash meth flow gauge on the speedo cruise control right. Pretty slick setup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jYlum4j2evM

http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51540

[BuLoOoSki]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

You set the clamping torque in the back end flash map. Maybe you just need to raise it? I've got a few customers pushing 550-560whp on the stock clutch packs with it with and not heard of any slippage. A few had slippage with the stock back end flash and added the BMS back end flash to resolve slippage.

I know MHD is working on raising their internal torque limiter cap so maybe that will help a bit. Do you have the ZCP trans flash? That also makes a big difference.

Mike

ZCP Trans flash?

[CloudVIII]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

You set the clamping torque in the back end flash map. Maybe you just need to raise it? I've got a few customers pushing 550-560whp on the stock clutch packs with it with and not heard of any slippage. A few had slippage with the stock back end flash and added the BMS back end flash to resolve slippage.

I know MHD is working on raising their internal torque limiter cap so maybe that will help a bit. Do you have the ZCP trans flash? That also makes a big difference.

Mike

Yup I have the GTS TCU Flash. Running Pure Stage 2 turbos as well so pushing for more. Want reliable 650.

[CloudVIII]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Won't that just put the car in limp mode? If you just want to hard limp mode have your controller send a bogus signal to the TMAP sensor signal or something to trigger a limp. Overall like a rudimentary way to go about things considering how gracefully the JB4 can handle it if setup properly. I know they have a new safety setting that lets you use the JB4 in flash only mode where it only controls WMI and triggers a safety, and does zero tuning, if that is what you're going for.

Mike

I'll take limp mode over running lean and having detonation any day.

[mynameisplayer]

I tried to provoke some clever (erer) minds in another post re: Brazil factory E85 tune for an F30 that used a generic Ethanol sensor, and also hint at how the GTS ecu is triggering the water spray - use that for Meth. My Christmas wish... a BEF with E85 ability (and safety) built in, with NO piggyback to trigger Meth - use the same pins/loom as the GTS? Everyone is so busy with OBD flash to worry about this?

[BMWcurious]

The Brazil N55 flex fuel sensor input uses the same input as one of the MAF sensors on S55 and the input does not alter any candidate port registers on other N55 which are from EU or US.

Similar story with most other I/O where equipment variations leave little clear path for new I/O that is consistent across models. GTS water I/O has uses for some of the pins on other models.

These were problems I came across testing MEVD172G flex fuel on Tuesday on the bench, leaving me crying in my coffee. The flex fuel input would be useful for triggering safeties inside the DME if used with port/methanol injection without needing an external controller perform the action.

[EALm4]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

JB4 with a back end flash is a great solution for meth..

You let JB4 control meth. You can also setup a full flash and then the JB4 is only there as a meth controller and dynamically adds boost when meth starts flowing.

Mike

I run the JB4 & BM3 stack on the BMS meth kit. My dyno hits 620lb/trq (wheel) with the GTS TCU flash and I have never had a slip.

After data logging I've noticed that Map 8 produces no manipulation of the BM3 stage 2. However I personally run Map 6 either with zero additional boost or additional whenever I feel like getting rowdy. Meth trigger 1 and default meth safety will keep her safe.

The JB4 is a legit meth and boot controller however, I'm interested in seeing how the torqbyte integrates.

Upgraded braided lines and nozzles coming this spring. Shoutout to F80Paul for helping me sort out the AN fittings.

[F80Paul]

Originally Posted by EALm4

I run the JB4 & BM3 stack on the BMS meth kit. My dyno hits 620lb/trq (wheel) with the GTS TCU flash and I have never had a slip.

After data logging I've noticed that Map 8 produces no manipulation of the BM3 stage 2. However I personally run Map 6 either with zero additional boost or additional whenever I feel like getting rowdy. Meth trigger 1 and default meth safety will keep her safe.

The JB4 is a legit meth and boot controller however, I'm interested in seeing how the torqbyte integrates.

Upgraded braided lines and nozzles coming this spring. Shoutout to F80Paul for helping me sort out the AN fittings.

I really don't want to get into a JB4 vs full flash debate. The JB4 served me well and I actually still have it installed in my car but just in map 0 and disconnected from the OBD port.

A few things discussed in this thread I'd like to clarify..

Unless something has changed, and this would be good news if it has, the JB4 ONLY has "safety" with WMI while operating in map 8. The JB4 can't do anything with ignition timing so basically what map 8 does is increase boost (above the DME requested boost) and then in theory if it detects a lack of meth flow (via over/under current from the wmi pump) it reduces boost. (side note: by the way without the ability to set the exact over/under pump amperage you will only be able to use the cooling mist pump that comes with the BMS kit, any other pump will change the amperage that the pump draws and thus will break the over/under current threshold safety)((the Torqbyte lets you manually set the over/under current safety setting to work with any meth pump you want))

Again, unless something has changed recently and I did ask Terry for this many times, there is NO meth safety in map 6. only in map 8.


Okay, so the feature that lets you use the JB4 to trigger the meth pump, with the JB turned OFF in map 0, is something that Terry made for me over a year ago with a hidden feature in a special firmware. It sounds like this feature has made it's way into the general release? The way it worked when he made it for me was you set meth safety = 4 and then the JB will trigger the pump with 100% duty based on the raw MAP sensor voltage when boost goes over the WMI minimum boost setting. NO safety. Just allows you to use the JB as a basic on/off Hobbs switch. Useful for existing JB4/bms WMI kit guys to go full flash without having to buy something else for sure!


Concerning DCT clutch clamping force...

There is no table in the DME which controls clutch clamping force. The DCT controls clamping force based on actual DME torque request, which is tied to DME boost. The JB4 allows up to approx 22-23psi boost from the DME at it's input, no more. But 22-23psi is a lot better than stock and so having a BEF will help a lot with DCT clutch slippage compared to using the stock flash. However, I do not believe the torque request sent from a BEF to the DCT is anywhere near that of a full flash with high boost. My car runs 6.0 60-130 with no slope on Stock DCT clutches and zero slippage. Over 700whp with the DME in full control of boost.


The meth injection safety mechanism I developed for my car will instantly open the wastgates and then as a result of that the car will go into limp mode. This is exactly what I want to happen IF there is ever a problem with meth flow. I want the motor to stop boosting and I want to be alerted so that I can fix the issue before continuing to drive. If you have a meth leak in the engine compartment you don't want to continue driving with reduced boost, as the JB4 in map 8 will allow. You want to shut it all down and inspect the problem.


I sincerely hope I haven't ruffled any feathers with my comments. Again, I have nothing against the JB4 and Terry Burger has always been nothing but extremely helpful to me in the past. I think it's a great plug and play setup that is easy to install and get running on map 8. These are just my experiences and challenges I have had to overcome as I have grown to incorporate much higher flowing methanol injection setups with the need for more precise control over flow throughout different boost/rpm ranges as well as incorporating safety while using larger pumps, etc.

-Paul

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Unless something has changed, and this would be good news if it has, the JB4 ONLY has "safety" with WMI while operating in map 8. The JB4 can't do anything with ignition timing so basically what map 8 does is increase boost (above the DME requested boost) and then in theory if it detects a lack of meth flow (via over/under current from the wmi pump) it reduces boost. (side note: by the way without the ability to set the exact over/under pump amperage you will only be able to use the cooling mist pump that comes with the BMS kit, any other pump will change the amperage that the pump draws and thus will break the over/under current threshold safety)((the Torqbyte lets you manually set the over/under current safety setting to work with any meth pump you want))

Again, unless something has changed recently and I did ask Terry for this many times, there is NO meth safety in map 6. only in map 8.

On the JB4 setup there are a variety of safety setting options, some that allow you to run a WMI safety on map6. They are fairly flexible and will add whatever features/settings you guys find useful. On the WMI pump the "meth flow scaling" value of 60 is intended for the Aquatec pump which every meth manufacturer resells. If you have a pump that draws more or less current for some reason then you will need to adjust the "meth flow scaling" up or down to compensate.

On maximum calculated torque that is set entirely in the back end flash map. As of right now I believe BM3 has the limiter removed and MHD does not, but I know MHD is working on removing it. Once done you can set the calculated torque to whatever you want. For example, you can set it so 20psi on the flash reports 800lb/ft of torque to the trans, as BMS has done on the N54 back end flash maps. The JB4 reports full boost to the DME up to the flash target so if you set the flash target to 30psi then you're going to have full boost reported up to 30psi regardless of the JB4 settings.

Mike

[F80Paul]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

On the JB4 setup there are a variety of safety setting options, some that allow you to run a WMI safety on map6. They are fairly flexible and will add whatever features/settings you guys find useful. On the WMI pump the "meth flow scaling" value of 60 is intended for the Aquatec pump which every meth manufacturer resells. If you have a pump that draws more or less current for some reason then you will need to adjust the "meth flow scaling" up or down to compensate.

On maximum calculated torque that is set entirely in the back end flash map. As of right now I believe BM3 has the limiter removed and MHD does not, but I know MHD is working on removing it. Once done you can set the calculated torque to whatever you want. For example, you can set it so 20psi on the flash reports 800lb/ft of torque to the trans, as BMS has done on the N54 back end flash maps. The JB4 reports full boost to the DME up to the flash target so if you set the flash target to 30psi then you're going to have full boost reported up to 30psi regardless of the JB4 settings.

Mike

Concerning meth safety on any map other than map 8, this would have to be a new feature. How exactly does this map 6 safety operate? My last conversation with Terry regarding this is that map 8 is the only map with meth safety operating.

Meth flow scaling just changes the display and logging so that 100% pump duty shows as 100%, unless something has changed this setting has no affect on anything functionally. There are many variations of the Aquatech pump, different motor versions as well as heads. On top of that, depending on the size and number of nozzles being used the actual amperage being drawn when meth is flowing properly will vary. This requires the controller "safety" over/under pump current thresholds to be adjusted for each install for it to actually work properly. There is no one size fits all setting that will work for every install. The proper way to setup a safety that relies on pump current draw to decide whether meth is flowing or not requires you to log meth amperage draw during system usage, then you set the over and under amperage setting accordingly for that setup.

I disagree about the DCT reporting. I have tested this extensively on my car. While there are two torque at the DCT clutch limit tables in the DME which I increase so that they do not become a limit as DME boost is increased, there is nothing to indicate (no logging data channel) that the torque being reported to the DCT is being altered to be different than the internal actual torque calculation that is based on actual load. I know the point where the DCT begins slipping with a JB4/BM3 BEF combo, which I have used. Full flash with high boost holds at a higher torque in my experience.

Unless something has changed recently the JB4 cannot handle more than 23psi in the BEF, as it will peg out FF to 0. The JB4 cannot handle a higher wgdc input from the flash than around 22-23psi without fudging the wgdc sensitivity with FUA which would always give me a DTMAL. Has this changed? Is anyone actually running a BEF on s55 that runs more than 23psi dme boost?

These are all things that I spent extensive time on back and forth with Terry over a year ago. Would love to know if there have been recent changes affecting these things. That would be good news if it were true!

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by F80Paul

Concerning meth safety on any map other than map 8, this would have to be a new feature. How exactly does this map 6 safety operate? My last conversation with Terry regarding this is that map 8 is the only map with meth safety operating.

Meth flow scaling just changes the display and logging so that 100% pump duty shows as 100%, unless something has changed this setting has no affect on anything functionally. There are many variations of the Aquatech pump, different motor versions as well as heads. On top of that, depending on the size and number of nozzles being used the actual amperage being drawn when meth is flowing properly will vary. This requires the controller "safety" over/under pump current thresholds to be adjusted for each install for it to actually work properly. There is no one size fits all setting that will work for every install. The proper way to setup a safety that relies on pump current draw to decide whether meth is flowing or not requires you to log meth amperage draw during system usage, then you set the over and under amperage setting accordingly for that setup.

I disagree about the DCT reporting. I have tested this extensively on my car. While there are two torque at the DCT clutch limit tables in the DME which I increase so that they do not become a limit as DME boost is increased, there is nothing to indicate (no logging data channel) that the torque being reported to the DCT is being altered to be different than the internal actual torque calculation that is based on actual load. I know the point where the DCT begins slipping with a JB4/BM3 BEF combo, which I have used. Full flash with high boost holds at a higher torque in my experience.

Unless something has changed recently the JB4 cannot handle more than 23psi in the BEF, as it will peg out FF to 0. The JB4 cannot handle a higher wgdc input from the flash than around 22-23psi without fudging the wgdc sensitivity with FUA which would always give me a DTMAL. Has this changed? Is anyone actually running a BEF on s55 that runs more than 23psi dme boost?

These are all things that I spent extensive time on back and forth with Terry over a year ago. Would love to know if there have been recent changes affecting these things. That would be good news if it were true!

A lot has changed recently since BMS released their own F series back end flash map. As a result new settings have been appearing on the JB4 end along with improved functionality. Your questions would probably be better asked to BMS directly in their back end flash thread but there is now a FUD bit setting for cars equipped with a back end flash map. And another FUD bit setting that enables a new dutybias auto learning algorithm.

For map6 WMI safety you normally use the "safety mode = 2" or "safety mode = 4" options.

0 - Raise boost on map8 as a function of meth flow & historic timing (default)
1 - Raise boost on map8 as a function of meth flow only
2 - Start at normal target and failsafe IF flow drops below flow level
for 1 second under boost. Enabled for all maps.
3 - When on map8 meth flow is completely ignored. Useful for using
map8 as an adjustable non-meth map.
4 - Run a progressive meth safety on all maps

I don't know if they are in the public firmware yet so check with them on that. I know they active in a test firmware. For option4 it uses the flash target as it's "baseline" so you're progressiving from the flash profile to your map6 profile as a function of WMI flow. And with the new guage setup you can monitor meth flow and boost in dash real time. It's a really slick setup. A trade off for you might be on the logging. You can only log via the JB4 interface as it requires OBDII for this. But they've also recently improved logging dramatically. It has all the channels now at high speed.

On the calculated torque it's loggable on the JB4 and that is the value sent to the trans to determine clamping force. Higher is better but the trans tables max out at some point also, so more torque reported does not provide additional clamping force.

Mike

[F80Paul]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

A lot has changed recently since BMS released their own F series back end flash map. As a result new settings have been appearing on the JB4 end along with improved functionality. Your questions would probably be better asked to BMS directly in their back end flash thread but there is now a FUD bit setting for cars equipped with a back end flash map. And another FUD bit setting that enables a new dutybias auto learning algorithm.

For map6 WMI safety you normally use the "safety mode = 2" or "safety mode = 4" options.



I don't know if they are in the public firmware yet so check with them on that. I know they active in a test firmware. For option4 it uses the flash target as it's "baseline" so you're progressiving from the flash profile to your map6 profile as a function of WMI flow. And with the new guage setup you can monitor meth flow and boost in dash real time. It's a really slick setup. A trade off for you might be on the logging. You can only log via the JB4 interface as it requires OBDII for this. But they've also recently improved logging dramatically. It has all the channels now at high speed.

On the calculated torque it's loggable on the JB4 and that is the value sent to the trans to determine clamping force. Higher is better but the trans tables max out at some point also, so more torque reported does not provide additional clamping force.

Mike

I spoke with Terry and he confirmed that the meth safety works in all Maps in a new firmware that is still in testing. That’s great news! We also may be able to integrate this safety functionality with my Torqbyte controller driving the meth. I will be testing this as well as feeding the JB4 a high boost flash map to see if it works. I’ll report back with my results.