Crashed on Nurburgring during tourist ride. BMW ED insurance HDI denies claim

[dim635csi]

Well, a quick summary:
- cudos to OP for sharing the story
- hopefully it will be resolved to success and your car will be back in shape
- ED is a great opportunity, but it is a different country, different insurance rules,even if BMWNA tells you're 'all covered'
- the value of driving on historic track on street tires and stock/endurance brakes, well, under appreciated.
- you'll get a better experience at Road Atlanta, Circuit of Americas or Laguna Seca, coming prepared and with a few valuable instruction laps with a friend or club instructor.

Good luck with your HIP/BMWNA battle and a chance your car coming out of the VPC like new.

[Ibiza]

dongerkim THANK YOU FOR SHARING THIS WITH THE FORUM!! It is unfortunate that BMW AG changed up the insurance on us. This is 'bait and switch' tactic that I would hold Raven.Cooper@bmwnaext.com responsible to uphold Sabrina Knudsen's undated e-mail that the Nordschleife tourist road IS COVERED!! I would lawyer up in the States and track down an attorney who looking for class action status litigation claim. I would personally grab some popcorn for the depositions during discovery.

Regarding damages, alloy wheels can be refinished for $150 per rim, so that is $300. I would just have the bumper touched up, especially if its a lease, as if your a repeat customer your local dealership will not 'noticed' it when you lease a G80 in 2+ years.

Thescout13 your poor wife that your would be selling to street merchants.

As IK6SPEED and Thescout13 pointed out, this is advice to others to drive off the Ring and then file the insurance claim. So much for being honest with HDI- the law won't catch up with you as you could always claim ignorance being in a foreign country (out of reach of US courts) and clam PTSD as a defense if caught.

Please keep us posted, and who ever trolls you should be banned from Bimmerpost!! I got your back!! Ibiza

[Ibiza]

Originally Posted by iamwingman

Not to be a dick... but, get a brain...

Not cool, as we have all done this Daddy during ED at the Ring. Great to be a Monday morning quarterback.

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by Ibiza

dongerkim THANK YOU FOR SHARING THIS WITH THE FORUM!! It is unfortunate that BMW AG changed up the insurance on us. This is 'bait and switch' tactic that I would hold Raven.Cooper@bmwnaext.com responsible to uphold Sabrina Knudsen's undated e-mail that the Nordschleife tourist road IS COVERED!! I would lawyer up in the States and track down an attorney who looking for class action status litigation claim. I would personally grab some popcorn for the depositions during discovery.

Regarding damages, alloy wheels can be refinished for $150 per rim, so that is $300. I would just have the bumper touched up, especially if its a lease, as if your a repeat customer your local dealership will not 'noticed' it when you lease a G80 in 2+ years.

Thescout13 your poor wife that your would be selling to street merchants.

As IK6SPEED and Thescout13 pointed out, this is advice to others to drive off the Ring and then file the insurance claim. So much for being honest with HDI- the law won't catch up with you as you could always claim ignorance being in a foreign country (out of reach of US courts) and clam PTSD as a defense if caught.

Please keep us posted, and who ever trolls you should be banned from Bimmerfest!! I got you back!! Ibiza

Bimmerfest? Come on Ibiza you are part of the "cool" forum now hahaha

[Ibiza]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

Bimmerfest? Come on Ibiza you are part of the "cool" forum now hahaha

S**t, I ment Bimmerpost- both forums are my social media interaction. FB is so yesterday. I'll correct.

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by Ibiza

dongerkim THANK YOU FOR SHARING THIS WITH THE FORUM!! It is unfortunate that BMW AG changed up the insurance on us. This is 'bait and switch' tactic that I would hold Raven.Cooper@bmwnaext.com responsible to uphold Sabrina Knudsen's undated e-mail that the Nordschleife tourist road IS COVERED!! I would lawyer up in the States and track down an attorney who looking for class action status litigation claim. I would personally grab some popcorn for the depositions during discovery.

Regarding damages, alloy wheels can be refinished for $150 per rim, so that is $300. I would just have the bumper touched up, especially if its a lease, as if your a repeat customer your local dealership will not 'noticed' it when you lease a G80 in 2+ years.

Thescout13 your poor wife that your would be selling to street merchants.

As IK6SPEED and Thescout13 pointed out, this is advice to others to drive off the Ring and then file the insurance claim. So much for being honest with HDI- the law won't catch up with you as you could always claim ignorance being in a foreign country (out of reach of US courts) and clam PTSD as a defense if caught.

Please keep us posted, and who ever trolls you should be banned from Bimmerpost!! I got your back!! Ibiza

It is comical every week someone who is clueless as to the law uses the term “class action”, “Lemon Law” or something similar.

1) There is no class action. To have a class, you need a group that has been injured. As thus, only a lawsuit by the OP which he would need to fund out of pocket, almost certainly well over $17k and probably recover nothing.

2) BMWNA arranged an EU Auto policy as a 3rd Party (agent). Unless OP has in writing that Nurburgring was covered, there is no deception or bait and switch. As thus, a USA lawyer has nothing or no one to file against.

3) Just like a BMW Warranty, any Extended Warranty or any Insurance, it is up to you to read the coverage limitations.

4) Nurburgring has no bearing on what they call specific days in terms of Insurance Coverage. As someone said in another thread, “If the BMW Platinum does not cover everything the original BMW Warranty does, how can they call it Platinum”. Marketing and Promotional terms have no bearing.

That does not mean there is nothing the OP can do.

OP could try and file suit against HDI as they are based in Chicago, but they are subsidiary of Talanx Aktiengesellschaft, a German Insurance Company.

I suspect HDI might claim it needs to be litigated in Germany as that is where it all happened. Actually that might be better for multiple reasons below, but jurisdiction has to be established and that will cost money out of OPs pocket that will not be recovered to begin with.

As this is a $17k claim against an Insurance Company, lots of luck finding any Attorney worthwhile to take on contingency.

OP can always hire a German lawyer and file suit against Insurance Company in Germany. Of course Insurance Companies have their own in house lawyers. The only grounds OP could possibly win would be Nurburgring’s description and definition of the day he was on track.

One would think Nurburgring would testify for OP defending that position and that he was wrongly denied coverage. Nurburgring should be on OPs side as they could lose revenue as this becomes public knowledge. I seriously doubt they would come to USA to testify though.

There very well may be precedent at Nurburgring on this kind of claim in the German Courts.

That said, I know nothing about German Court System. I do know I spent 4 years and just under $100k suing a car company for non-payment of Warranty claims making car inoperable for 4 years. 4 years later they were forced to buy car back but in USA loser doesn’t pay Attorney costs, so that came out of my pocket. They spent well into 6 figures defending.

Germany may or may not have a loser pays judicial system. Good if OP wins. On the flip side, it means OP would pay all their Attorney expenses as well if he lost.

Bottom line, it would most likely cost $17k multiple times over paid in advance with no sure outcome.

EDIT: The policy most likely has language where action is to be filed and if binding arbitration is used instead of the court system.

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

It is comical every week someone who is clueless as to the law uses the term "class action", "Lemon Law" or something similar.

1) There is no class action. To have a class, you need a group that has been injured. As thus, only a lawsuit by the OP which he would need to fund out of pocket, almost certainly well over $17k and probably recover nothing.

2) BMWNA arranged an EU Auto policy as a 3rd Party (agent). Unless OP has in writing that Nurburgring was covered, there is no deception or bait and switch. As thus, a USA lawyer has nothing or no one to file against.

3) Just like a BMW Warranty, any Extended Warranty or any Insurance, it is up to you to read the coverage limitations.

4) Nurburgring has no bearing on what they call specific days in terms of Insurance Coverage. As someone said in another thread, "If the BMW Platinum does not cover everything the original BMW Warranty does, how can they call it Platinum". Marketing and Promotional terms have no bearing.

That does not mean there is nothing the OP can do.

OP could try and file suit against HDI as they are based in Chicago, but they are subsidiary of Talanx Aktiengesellschaft, a German Insurance Company.

I suspect HDI might claim it needs to be litigated in Germany as that is where it all happened. Actually that might be better for multiple reasons below, but jurisdiction has to be established and that will cost money out of OPs pocket that will not be recovered to begin with.

As this is a $17k claim against an Insurance Company, lots of luck finding any Attorney worthwhile to take on contingency.

OP can always hire a German lawyer and file suit against Insurance Company in Germany. Of course Insurance Companies have their own in house lawyers. The only grounds OP could possibly win would be Nurburgring's description and definition of the day he was on track.

One would think Nurburgring would testify for OP defending that position and that he was wrongly denied coverage. Nurburgring should be on OPs side as they could lose revenue as this becomes public knowledge. I seriously doubt they would come to USA to testify though.

There very well may be precedent at Nurburgring on this kind of claim in the German Courts.

That said, I know nothing about German Court System. I do know I spent 4 years and just under $100k suing a car company for non-payment of Warranty claims making car inoperable for 4 years. 4 years later they were forced to buy car back but in USA loser doesn't pay Attorney costs, so that came out of my pocket. They spent well into 6 figures defending.

Germany may or may not have a loser pays judicial system. Good if OP wins. On the flip side, it means OP would pay all their Attorney expenses as well if he lost.

Bottom line, it would most likely cost $17k multiple times over paid in advance with no sure outcome.

EDIT: The policy most likely has language where action is to be filed and if binding arbitration is used instead of the court system.

1) Incorrect. You can sustain a class action under one of the various deceptive trade practices acts even if most members of the class have not been actually injured yet. The point being that a company shouldn't get away with a deceptive practice just because a ton of people haven't been hurt yet. Happens all the time. See any class action relating to the iPhone. In addition almost all DTPA type laws carry with them an award of attorneys fees m, unlike warranty claims, so finding a lawyer who will take a DTPA claim is not hard considering they are a bitch to litigate for defendants and almost always settle. I'm a lawyer at a very large and notable law firm, I deal with shit like this daily for our big clients on the defense side. I'm not saying he has a valid claim here, but for $17k I would recommend my client settle. The client would pay 3-4xs that for an answer and a motion to dismiss or any other pleading type motion. Not worth it. Pay out and have them sign a confidential settlement agreement. Walk away and post in large letters that the Ring is not covered.

2) He does have representations from BMWNA that it was covered, albeit from the past to another consumer. Whether it occurred in Germany or not, he is in privity of contract with BMWNA and may have a cause of action under one of the various consumer protection laws or maybe even under the contract itself, although the most likely would have to go through arbitration and he doesn't have the best facts. Refer to 1) above as his best option.

3) if it's a contract of adhesion and the terms are unconscionable or one sided, the contract will be read in favor of the non drafting party. These things are overcome all the time even thought he "consumer didn't read it" because of reasons like that or because of a custom in the trade that has created a reliance. Having a good lawyer and good facts on your side help in this regard.

4) there are tons of factors re venue and availability that makes responding to this kind of moot. But I understand your points and that would be a fight on its own in the pleadings stage.

I appreciate you litigated against a manufacturer for a warranty claim, but that doesn't mean you know the state of the law in this area sufficient enough to call someone "clueless" or "stupid."

I think there is a way to prove your point without resulting with ad hominem attacks. Granted some people say stupid shit sometimes, but this wasn't that out there out of the realm of possibility.

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

1) Incorrect. You can sustain a class action under one of the various deceptive trade practices acts even if most members of the class have not been actually injured yet. The point being that a company shouldn't get away with a deceptive practice just because a ton of people haven't been hurt yet. Happens all the time. See any class action relating to the iPhone. In addition almost all DTPA type laws carry with them an award of attorneys fees, so finding a lawyer who will take a DTPA claim is not hard considering they are a bitch to litigate for defendants and almost always settle. I'm a lawyer, I deal with shit like this daily.

Great. Tell us where the deception is Mr Esquire.

Apple had class action (with batteries etc) as everyone was eventually a victim.

No class action here. Only those who crashed at Nurburgring. And what makes you think jurisdiction would be in USA?

Originally Posted by Thescout13

2) He does have representations from BMWNA that it was covered, albeit from the past to another consumer. Whether it occurred in Germany or not, he is in privity of contract with BMWNA and may have a cause of action under one of the various consumer protection laws or maybe even under the contract itself, although the most likely would have to go through arbitration. Refer to 1) above as his best option.

A standard BMW CPO purchased in early 2017 covered 2 years. It only covers 1 year now. Different Policy, different terms. I certainly hope you do not take a court case based on a weak argument like that.

Someone leased a BMW with x money factor and I paid x+ now. I should get the old rate.....really?

Someone else got comp and collision. I didn’t. I should be covered.

Very, very weak.

Originally Posted by Thescout13

3) if it's a contract of adhesion and the terms are unconscionable or one sided, the contract will be read in favor of the non drafting party. These things are overcome all the time even thought he "consumer didn't read it." Having a good lawyer and good facts on your side help in this regard.

Most contracts specify that they cannot viewed in that fashion. Regardless, a good attorney costs money. Someone needs to pay up to explore possibilities.

Originally Posted by Thescout13

4) there are tons of factors re venue and availability that makes responding to this kind of moot.

Which means you don’t know nor do I.

Originally Posted by Thescout13

I appreciate you litigated against a manufacturer for a warranty claim, but that doesn't mean you know the state of the law sufficient enough to call someone "clueless" or "stupid."

I think there is a way to prove your point without resulting with ad hominem attacks on people. Just saying.

The original post I responded to with it’s baseless claims speak for itself.

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

Great. Tell us where the deception is Mr Esquire.

Apple had class action (with batteries etc) as everyone was eventually a victim.

No class action here. And what makes you think jurisdiction would be in USA?

A standard BMW CPO purchased in early 2017 covered 2 years. It only covers 1 year now. Different Policy, different terms. I certainly hope you do not take a court case based on a weak argument like that.

Someone leased a BMW with x money factor and I paid x+ now. I should get the old rate.....really?

Someone else got compmand collision. I didn't. I should be covered.

Very, very weak.

Most contracts specify that they cannot viewed in that fashion. Regardless, a good attorney costs money. Someone needs to pay up to explore possibilities.

Which means you don't know nor do I.

The original post I responded to with it's baseless claims speak for itself.

Sigh. Okay man sure. I revised my post substantially above after my initial post so you missed quite a bit.

But basically, let's just say I know this area of the law much better than you. Not saying he has a winning case, as I mentioned above, but yeah man sure, you got me. You're a winner. And the battery case is not what I am talking about, but sure, let's go with the one case you know about because it was on the news recently.

I want to go point by point in response, but it's just not worth it. Your responses are filled with logical fallacies and nonanalougous reasoning. Deceptive practices are not the same as warranty claims nor financial terms on a contract. But sure, okay.

And it doesn't matter what a contract says about how it "can be viewed", the court can do what the court wants. I've seen a court completely ignore a limitation of liability and find damages for 20x the cap. And LOLs are supposed to be ironclad.

And calling me names doesn't improve your point or make you right.

Now can't we all just get along and hope the best for OP.

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

Sigh. Okay man sure. I revised my post substantially above after my initial post so you missed quite a bit.

But basically, let's just say I know this area of the law much better than you. Not saying he has a winning case, as I mentioned above, but yeah man sure, you got me. You're a winner. And the battery case is not what I am talking about, but sure, let's go with the one case you know about because it was on the news recently.

I want to go point by point in response, but it's just not worth it. Your responses are filled with logical fallacies and nonanalougous reasoning. Deceptive practices are not the same as warranty claims nor financial terms on a contract. But sure, okay.

And it doesn't matter what a contract says about how it "can be viewed", the court can do what the court wants. I've seen a court completely ignore a limitation of liability and find damages for 20x the cap. And LOLs are supposed to be ironclad.

And calling me names doesn't improve your point or make you right.

Now can't we all just get along and hope the best for OP.

As contract is in German, I would venture to say Germany is venue. Does Germany even allow Class Action suits (not that I believe OP has a class action).

As virtually every attorney uses Esquire, how is that name calling?

I guess it’s not out of the possibility that BMW will give him a new undamaged car. It’s also possible, but ridiculous to think it would happen. Just as ridiculous as a F30 person is stating BMW should retrofit all past cars with improvements made over the years for free.

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

As contract is in German, I would venture to say Germany is venue. Does Germany even allow Class Action suits (not that I believe OP has a class action).

As virtually every attorney uses Esquire, how is that name calling?

I guess it's not out of the possibility that BMW will give him a new undamaged car. It's also possible, but ridiculous to think it would happen.

He can only hope for the best.

And after many years of practicing, I have never met an attorney that uses esquire. The only one that I know of, but never met, is a personal injury attorney (ambulance chaser) that plasters his face on bus stop benches where I live. Then again, the type of attorneys I deal with on a daily basis are in a different realm than ambulance chasers. As you can imagine, handling multi billion dollar deals or multi million dollar litigation is quite a bit different than whether John broke his leg at Home Depot because of a faulty chair in the break room. So I guess in my mind esquire would come off as a slight to me haha. But you would have no way to know that.

As to venue. It's a factor test, and it could be litigated here. Federal courts litigate claims under foreign laws or languages all the time here in diversity cases. But at the end of the day it's a factor test so no one can give you a definitive answer.

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

He can only hope for the best.

And after many years of practicing, I have never met an attorney that uses esquire. The only one that I know of, but never met, is a personal injury attorney (ambulance chaser) that plasters his face on bus stop benches where I live. Then again, the type of attorneys I deal with on a daily basis are in a different realm than ambulance chasers. As you can imagine, handling multi billion dollar deals or multi million dollar litigation is quite a bit different than whether John broke his leg at Home Depot because of a faulty chair in the break room. So I guess in my mind esquire would come off as a slight to me haha. But you would have no way to know that.

As to venue. It's a factor test, and it could be litigated here. Federal courts litigate claims under foreign laws or languages all the time here in diversity cases. But at the end of the day it's a factor test so no one can give you a definitive answer.

Mr Esquire was not intended as name calling (then again, a line from Shakespeare about what to do with all the lawyers now comes to mine). It was meant no differently than if I said Mr Attorney....meaning you are one and I admitted up front I was not.

[Ibiza]

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

It is comical every week someone who is clueless as to the law uses the term “class action”, “Lemon Law” or something similar.

1) There is no class action. To have a class, you need a group that has been injured. As thus, only a lawsuit by the OP which he would need to fund out of pocket, almost certainly well over $17k and probably recover nothing.

2) BMWNA arranged an EU Auto policy as a 3rd Party (agent). Unless OP has in writing that Nurburgring was covered, there is no deception or bait and switch. As thus, a USA lawyer has nothing or no one to file against.

3) Just like a BMW Warranty, any Extended Warranty or any Insurance, it is up to you to read the coverage limitations.

4) Nurburgring has no bearing on what they call specific days in terms of Insurance Coverage. As someone said in another thread, “If the BMW Platinum does not cover everything the original BMW Warranty does, how can they call it Platinum”. Marketing and Promotional terms have no bearing.

That does not mean there is nothing the OP can do.

OP could try and file suit against HDI as they are based in Chicago, but they are subsidiary of Talanx Aktiengesellschaft, a German Insurance Company.

I suspect HDI might claim it needs to be litigated in Germany as that is where it all happened. Actually that might be better for multiple reasons below, but jurisdiction has to be established and that will cost money out of OPs pocket that will not be recovered to begin with.

As this is a $17k claim against an Insurance Company, lots of luck finding any Attorney worthwhile to take on contingency.

OP can always hire a German lawyer and file suit against Insurance Company in Germany. Of course Insurance Companies have their own in house lawyers. The only grounds OP could possibly win would be Nurburgring’s description and definition of the day he was on track.

One would think Nurburgring would testify for OP defending that position and that he was wrongly denied coverage. Nurburgring should be on OPs side as they could lose revenue as this becomes public knowledge. I seriously doubt they would come to USA to testify though.

There very well may be precedent at Nurburgring on this kind of claim in the German Courts.

That said, I know nothing about German Court System. I do know I spent 4 years and just under $100k suing a car company for non-payment of Warranty claims making car inoperable for 4 years. 4 years later they were forced to buy car back but in USA loser doesn’t pay Attorney costs, so that came out of my pocket. They spent well into 6 figures defending.

Germany may or may not have a loser pays judicial system. Good if OP wins. On the flip side, it means OP would pay all their Attorney expenses as well if he lost.

Bottom line, it would most likely cost $17k multiple times over paid in advance with no sure outcome.

EDIT: The policy most likely has language where action is to be filed and if binding arbitration is used instead of the court system.

The BMW NA European Delivery Purchase Order states the following in regards to insurance under the Terms and Condition sub-section:
"INSURANCE
A driving insurance package for the Customer's Vehicle containing liability, comprehensive, damage and collision coverage for 14 days is included with this order. Customer authorizes BMW NA, by signing the purchase order to arrange for such insurance on the Customer's behalf with an insurance company registered in Germany. Insurance beyond the 14 days and up to five (5) months is available for an additional premium. For example, for 45 days coverage, you would order two months of insurance, which is the actual coverage period, not one month plus 14 days. The automobile will be registered and delivered with German export license plates valid only in Europe. BMW AG and/or BMW NA and its dealers will not be held responsible for the insurer's warranties and representations or omissions and all information given in connection with this insurance. Customer must maintain on their person all keys to the Vehicle and the registration and insurance documents that are received at time of delivery. Insurance Companies insuring the Vehicle which are based in Europe will not process or pay any loss claims unless all keys and original documents are turned in with such claims. Personal items must be removed prior to your returning the car to the drop off location. U.S. Customs does not permit items to be shipped in the vehicle; further, these items are not covered by insurance"

Based on the e-mail statement in the past that the Nordschleife was covered, OP would have a claim against BMW NA for breach of insurance good faith and fair dealing, as BMW NA is arranging the insurance, and as Thescout13 pointed out is misrepresentation.

The ED Purchase Order does not have a binding arbitration clause, just that "This agreement shall be governed and construed in accordance with the laws of the State of New Jersey". OP would file a claim in State court as the amount is under $75,000, and then defendant BMW NA would move to change venue to Federal Court third circuit, due to a favorable venue, but this would be based on previous case law/holdings that BMW NA attorneys would have already researched.

You are correct, that under the American court system each party has to pay for their respective legal fees unless it is specified in the contract that the prevailing party is entailed to expenses. However, I'm sure that NJ has a consumer protection statue under the convent of good faith and for dealing that the Plaintiff (OP) would be entailed to recovery of legal expenses. British court system allows the prevailing party to recovery attorney fess/legal costs, but I defer knowledge of the German court system, but this is a moot point as the contract is between OP and BMW NA, and governed by the laws of NJ.

I mentioned class action due to award of attorney fees and tremble damages for the Plaintiffs, that why Thescout13 pointed out these matters are settled prior to the actual jury trail. As the preliminary motions, proceedings and discovery, if not settled prior to, would be very costly to defend. Also, the plaintiff would file a motion for pre-discovery conditional case certification and court-supervised notice to potential opt-in plaintiffs. BMW NA after pleadings to deny the motion, would have to the provide OP's attorneys other customers that have had ED insurance claims denied, BUT the court would have to first grant pre-discovery conditional case certification. HDI would also be added as third party.


In house counsel for large corporations and most business contract out litigation maters to outside counsel that are well versed in complex litigation, thats why Thescout13 has a big time law position

Either way, OP has a sunken cost, so maybe hiring a NJ based attorney to write BMW NA a demand letter is all that takes for under a $1,000; maybe mention class action litigation to get BMW's attention to make OP whole.

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by Ibiza

The BMW NA European Delivery Purchase Order states the following in regards to insurance under the Terms and Condition sub-section:
"INSURANCE
A driving insurance package for the Customer's Vehicle containing liability, comprehensive, damage and collision coverage for 14 days is included with this order. Customer authorizes BMW NA, by signing the purchase order to arrange for such insurance on the Customer's behalf with an insurance company registered in Germany. Insurance beyond the 14 days and up to five (5) months is available for an additional premium. For example, for 45 days coverage, you would order two months of insurance, which is the actual coverage period, not one month plus 14 days. The automobile will be registered and delivered with German export license plates valid only in Europe. BMW AG and/or BMW NA and its dealers will not be held responsible for the insurer's warranties and representations or omissions and all information given in connection with this insurance. Customer must maintain on their person all keys to the Vehicle and the registration and insurance documents that are received at time of delivery. Insurance Companies insuring the Vehicle which are based in Europe will not process or pay any loss claims unless all keys and original documents are turned in with such claims. Personal items must be removed prior to your returning the car to the drop off location. U.S. Customs does not permit items to be shipped in the vehicle; further, these items are not covered by insurance"

Based on the e-mail statement in the past that the Nordschleife was covered, OP would have a claim against BMW NA for breach of insurance good faith and fair dealing, as BMW NA is arranging the insurance, and as Thescout13 pointed out is misrepresentation.

The ED Purchase Order does not have a binding arbitration clause, just that "This agreement shall be governed and construed in accordance with the laws of the State of New Jersey". OP would file a claim in State court as the amount is under $75,000, and then defendant BMW NA would move to change venue to Federal Court third circuit, due to a favorable venue, but this would be based on previous case law/holdings that BMW NA attorneys would have already researched.

You are correct, that under the American court system each party has to pay for their respective legal fees unless it is specified in the contract that the prevailing party is entailed to expenses. However, I'm sure that NJ has a consumer protection statue under the convent of good faith and for dealing that the Plaintiff (OP) would be entailed to recovery of legal expenses. British court system allows the prevailing party to recovery attorney fess/legal costs, but I defer knowledge of the German court system, but this is a moot point as the contract is between OP and BMW NA, and governed by the laws of NJ.

I mentioned class action due to award of attorney fees and tremble damages for the Plaintiffs, that why Thescout13 pointed out these matters are settled prior to the actual jury trail. As the preliminary motions, proceedings and discovery, if not settled prior to, would be very costly to defend. Also, the plaintiff would file a motion for pre-discovery conditional case certification and court-supervised notice to potential opt-in plaintiffs. BMW NA after pleadings to deny the motion, would have to the provide OP's attorneys other customers that have had ED insurance claims denied, BUT the court would have to first grant pre-discovery conditional case certification. HDI would also be added as third party.


In house consul for large corporations and most business contracts out litigation maters to out side consult that are well versed in complex litigation, thats why Thescout13 has a big time law position

Either way, OP has a sunken cost, so maybe hiring a NJ based attorney to write BMW NA a demand letter is all that takes for under a $1,000; maybe mention class action litigation to get BMW's attention to make OP whole.

You really should read what you posted and understand it.

“BMW AG and/or BMW NA and its dealers will not be held responsible for the insurer's warranties and representations or omissions and all information given in connection with this insurance”

BMW delivered policy as promised.

No deception.

What might have happened in past has no bearing on this case. Unless the OP has in writing Nurburgring was covered, he has no case against BMWNA.

From your own bolded statement Customer authorizes BMW NA, by signing the purchase order to arrange for such insurance on the Customer's behalf with an insurance company registered in Germany.

That sets venue in Germany against Insurance Company.

Class Action Lawsuits were illegal in Germany but that was supposed to change in mid-May of this year due to the Diesel Emissions Scandal. However, you still need all those insured by HDI with damage at Nurburgring to join the class. Lots of luck. That’s a small class, if at all.

And again, I doubt any lawyer in Germany or USA would see enough upside to take on contingency.

Even the Bimmerpost resident lawyer admits its not a slam dunk.

Sorry, but I live in the real world. Not the one where money grows on trees and I think I can win $500 Million in a MegaMillions jackpot.

[Ibiza]

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

You really should read what you posted and understand it.

"BMW AG and/or BMW NA and its dealers will not be held responsible for the insurer's warranties and representations or omissions and all information given in connection with this insurance"

BMW delivered policy as promised.

No deception.

What might have happened in past has no bearing on this case. Unless the OP has in writing Nurburgring was covered, he has no case against BMWNA.

From your own bolded statement Customer authorizes BMW NA, by signing the purchase order to arrange for such insurance on the Customer's behalf with an insurance company registered in Germany.

That sets venue in Germany against Insurance Company.

Class Action Lawsuits were illegal in Germany but that was supposed to change in mid-May of this year due to the Diesel Emissions Scandal. However, you still need all those insured by HDI with damage at Nurburgring to join the class. Lots of luck. That's a small class, if at all.

And again, I doubt any lawyer in Germany or USA would see enough upside to take on contingency.

Even the Bimmerpost resident lawyer admits its not a slam dunk.

Sorry, but I live in the real world. Not the one where money grows on trees and I think I can win $500 Million in a MegaMillions jackpot.

European Purchase Order Contract would be found to be adhesive and unconscionable. Maybe OP has cashed in bitcoin holdings prior to the correction, and does have a money to burn. After all, he's doing a 2nd ED within a short time period, taking a 3 month European vacation and paid € 1.700,00 on the spot for Ring damage.

Your just jaded for a 4 yr court case and $100,000 legal fees. You should have pulled a Trump and had your fixer ask for a 70% billed legal fee reduction.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by Ibiza

S**t, I ment Bimmerpost- both forums are my social media interaction. FB is so yesterday. I'll correct.

What's FB?

Edit: Why are you guys arguing about this anyway? BMWNA is going to end up fixing the car once it hits US shores

[INDVDL///M]

This is a shitty experience. I hope this gets resolved in your favor.

I did ED in 2015 and was very diligent to ensure the Nurburgring was covered. So I can only imagine how angry you must be.

[Darth One]

Originally Posted by iamwingman

Not to be a dick... but, get a brain...

Why is it that people preface the most dickish statements with "not to be a dick, but..."? Lol

[IrvineTim]

[KevinM]

First of all, thanks to the OP for posting his experience. While opening himself up to various comments from sofa bound pundits, this knowledge is clearly useful to those doing ED and considering visiting the Ring.

Legal issues aside, I find it untenable that BMWNA is not stepping up to the plate. It is well known that many people who do ED take their car to the Ring. If the Ring is now not covered as a German toll road, that should be listed as #1 on the exclusion list and, given the popularity of the Ring, should be highlighted during the ED.

I did not visit the Ring during my ED, but I was considering it, so I asked my delivery agent about insurance coverage. She indicated there would be no problem. I didn't read the fine print on the insurance as I figured she would know and ultimately I didn't go to the Ring.

If the non-coverage is a result of the insurance change to HDI, one would think that this change would be emphasized and not covert/read the fine print. If BMW was really caught off guard by this change (seems like BMWNA really doesn't know what is going on), they should cover the OP and warn future customers about the change.

As the OP says, the idea of driving on a track (even on a public day) without ANY coverage...wow. Can you imagine if other cars had been involved or someone was actually hurt? Blows my mind.

OP, good luck and again, thanks for sharing this painful story.

[dongerkim]

It really is a nice feeling that people can relate to being in my shoes. I actually thought I was going to get way more "you're an idiot" replies lol. Ive done threads like this in the past (other forums) and its usually about 50/50 nice/not so nice lol.

Originally Posted by KevinM

First of all, thanks to the OP for posting his experience. While opening himself up to various comments from sofa bound pundits, this knowledge is clearly useful to those doing ED and considering visiting the Ring.

Legal issues aside, I find int untenable that BMWNA is not stepping up to the plate. It is well known that many people who do ED take their car to the Ring. If the Ring is now not covered as a German toll road, that should be listed as #1 on the exclusion list and, given the popularity of the Ring, should be highlighted during the ED.

I did not visit the Ring during my ED, but I was considering it, so I asked my delivery agent about insurance coverage. She indicated there would be no problem. I didn't read the fine print on the insurance as I figured she would know and ultimately I didn't go to the Ring.

If the non-coverage is a result of the insurance change to HDI, one would think that this change would be emphasized and not covert/read the fine print. If BMW was really caught off guard by this change (seems like BMWNA really doesn't know what is going on), they should cover the OP and warn future customers about the change.

As the OP says, the idea of driving on a track (even on a public day) without ANY coverage...wow. Can you imagine if other cars had been involved or someone was actually hurt? Blows my mind.

OP, good luck and again, thanks for sharing this painful story.

This is exactly my point. I have accepted that the Insurance route I may not have much ground, but the misinformation from BMW to unsuspecting customers is what truly upsets me. There have been verbal and emails replies POST insurance switch from Allianz to HDI that are clearing incorrect or misleading.

The good news is, BMW NA seems to be warning upcoming ED customers about this topic. What a coincidence...

Originally Posted by Ibiza

European Purchase Order Contract would be found to be adhesive and unconscionable. Maybe OP has cashed in bitcoin holdings prior to the correction, and does have a money to burn. After all, he's doing a 2nd ED within a short time period, taking a 3 month European vacation and paid € 1.700,00 on the spot for Ring damage.

Your just jaded for a 4 yr court case and $100,000 legal fees. You should have pulled a Trump and had your fixer ask for a 70% billed legal fee reduction.

Unfortunately I have been HODLing the whole ride lol. This 3 month trip was quite an emotional decision. What makes it worse is most of my trip was planned and prepaid for long before I arrived. I am now currently re-arranging my plans to leave Europe earlier than planned. I sold a car that I was perfectly happy with for basically the same car, all for the experience. In that aspect, I feel like a total idiot.

It sure was an unforgettable experience

Originally Posted by Ibiza

dongerkim THANK YOU FOR SHARING THIS WITH THE FORUM!! It is unfortunate that BMW AG changed up the insurance on us. This is 'bait and switch' tactic that I would hold Raven.Cooper@bmwnaext.com responsible to uphold Sabrina Knudsen's undated e-mail that the Nordschleife tourist road IS COVERED!! I would lawyer up in the States and track down an attorney who looking for class action status litigation claim. I would personally grab some popcorn for the depositions during discovery.

Regarding damages, alloy wheels can be refinished for $150 per rim, so that is $300. I would just have the bumper touched up, especially if its a lease, as if your a repeat customer your local dealership will not 'noticed' it when you lease a G80 in 2+ years.

Thescout13 your poor wife that your would be selling to street merchants.

As IK6SPEED and Thescout13 pointed out, this is advice to others to drive off the Ring and then file the insurance claim. So much for being honest with HDI- the law won't catch up with you as you could always claim ignorance being in a foreign country (out of reach of US courts) and clam PTSD as a defense if caught.

Please keep us posted, and who ever trolls you should be banned from Bimmerpost!! I got your back!! Ibiza

I believe the date was August 25th 2017. The current HDI policy (unless they did a switcharoo in the fine print since then).

As for lawyering up, I don't have the energy to really think about it right now. The thought of getting a lawyer against one of the biggest and most influential companies in the world is daunting. I will contact BMW NA and hopefully they will hear me out and could come to a reasonable resolution.

I've never had any experience with such an issue (warranties etc). BMW normally just fixes the problem, no questions asked and sends me on my way in a rental lol. Any tips or experiences dealing with the BMW NA?

[SD ///M4]

Originally Posted by KevinM

If the Ring is now not covered as a German toll road, that should be listed as #1 on the exclusion list and, given the popularity of the Ring, should be highlighted during the ED.

My wife and I will be doing ED for her M3 ZCP in a little over three weeks, although we are not planning on going to the Nordschleife (or any other actual race track) during this visit, as we did two years ago. I'm looking forward to seeing if anything has changed as we sign the paperwork and I'm going to specifically ask about insurance coverage at the Nordschleife at the same time.

During our group Euro Delivery in May 2016 (#CentennialMTour), there were about a dozen of us who spent most of a day at Nurburgring Norschleife, doing dozens of laps collectively. One member did have a collision during one session that resulted in some fairly minor dented bodywork due to a collision with another car. His damage was not fixed at the VDC, nor at his dealer, and he took care of it himself after redelivery. In addition, none of us who experienced rock chips on metalwork and windshields, curb scratches on our front bumpers, or any other of the minor things that are usually fixed at the VDC, had their damage fixed. We were told after the fact that since one of the stated goals of the trip was to drive on three specific race tracks during the trip (Nurburgring Nordschleife, Circuit Park Zandvoort, and Spa Francorchamp), that any damage incurred during the trip, on track or on the street, was not covered. However, we were not told this in advance. Personally, I bottomed out on a driveway entrance in Italy and scraped the paint off the bottom of the front bumper, definitely not on a racetrack, and that was not fixed.

I'm pretty sure that I've read here of other minor damage done during recent Euro Deliveries that was not fixed by the VDC. BMW may be moving away from the idea of making your car showroom perfect again after a Euro Delivery. A change in the insurance carrier could also reflect this.