6MT or DCT?

[GMe90]

So the takeaway from this debate is that people who prefer the manual will buy the manual and vice versa. Then they will try to convince the other that they made the wrong choice.

[Liberation]

Originally Posted by GMe90

So the takeaway from this debate is that people who prefer the manual will buy the manual and vice versa. Then they will try to convince the other that they made the wrong choice.

Isn't that how this thread topic always plays out?

[GMe90]

Originally Posted by Liberation

Isn't that how this thread topic always plays out?

Sure is! And it's always entertaining!

[ChrisMT79]

Originally Posted by Liberation

Isn't that how this thread topic always plays out?

That is why I suggested repurposing the question-
If you are normally MT driver why did you choose the DCT?
Obviously the MT is a dying breed and technology unfortunately. And I am just as guilty to have purchase an automatic in previous years to allow for a family and others to drive it if the occasion necessitates. I think that anyone that drives a MT with any regularity would always say that it can be more fun and engaging to drive. For me personally I plan to squeeze every ounce of enjoyment my driving ability will allow me. But because I am buying a MT, I obviously would not know the experience of a DCT, other than to ask someone who was a regular MT driver who made the DCT choice to enlighten us.

[s4play]

Originally Posted by ChrisMT79

That is why I suggested repurposing the question-
If you are normally MT driver why did you choose the DCT?
Obviously the MT is a dying breed and technology unfortunately. And I am just as guilty to have purchase an automatic in previous years to allow for a family and others to drive it if the occasion necessitates. I think that anyone that drives a MT with any regularity would always say that it can be more fun and engaging to drive. For me personally I plan to squeeze every ounce of enjoyment my driving ability will allow me. But because I am buying a MT, I obviously would not know the experience of a DCT, other than to ask someone who was a regular MT driver who made the DCT choice to enlighten us.

My reason was simple, my wife suggested we try it. My e90 m3 was my first ever DCT and it will be my last 'nuff said.

My e36 and e46 were both manuals.

[stressdoc]

Originally Posted by s4play

My reason was simple, my wife suggested we try it. My e90 m3 was my first ever DCT and it will be my last 'nuff said.

My e36 and e46 were both manuals.

Nooo not 'nuff said. Please do tell us why you did not like the DCT !

I'm a fence-sitter on this one, love manual but thinking DCT is more efficient.

[991brothers]

DCT because it will be my daily driver

[s4play]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

Nooo not 'nuff said. Please do tell us why you did not like the DCT !

I'm a fence-sitter on this one, love manual but thinking DCT is more efficient.

My impressions:

1) DCT definitely made me feel like it affected the MPG, of course we all know about the added weight but just doesn't feel as efficient. Those who haven't owned both probably won't get what I'm talking about. Just a butt feeling I guess.

2) DCT is much smoother than it's previous generation SMG II, yes it's better but cannot compare to a PDK or the tranny in the 458 Italia. At lower speeds it's not as intuitive. For example if you had to hit the brakes at a red light, then it changes to green suddenly, the car's tranny does not know what gear to be in until you mash the throttle.

3) When you are backing out of a parking spot, you go from "R" to "1" and the car continues to roll back so you have to be careful to use your brake or you will slide right into the cars behind you. With manual it's never an issue.

4) When using the paddles, the 1-2 shift is either abrupt or requires quick shifts so pretty much useless. I found myself preferring to leave it in "D" mode and in the most aggressive mode. It's actually faster than using the paddles.


IF I can think of anything else, I'll reply later

[stressdoc]

Thanks S4play, helpful comments. I am back to thinking that there is no way that DCT can provide the control that a clutch provides in snow or oversteer or burnouts. Plus $2800 and 89lbs. It just seems so cool, with the hyper fast shifts, and the supposedly higher gas mileage.

[s4play]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

Thanks S4play, helpful comments. I am back to thinking that there is no way that DCT can provide the control that a clutch provides in snow or oversteer or burnouts. Plus $2800 and 89lbs. It just seems so cool, with the hyper fast shifts, and the supposedly higher gas mileage.

Ask some 6MT owners what they get MPG wise but I swear the DCT is LESS efficient and dropped my MPG rather than increase it. I averaged about 16-17 if I drove it with a very light foot. I know most M3 owners do not drive like me.

In comparison my ISF and 6MT s4 also with a V8 averages around 21mpg. If you think about it, 90lbs is pretty heavy, that's pretty close to what my wife weighs so it's potentially another person in the car!

[ChrisK]

Originally Posted by s4play

My impressions:

1) DCT definitely made me feel like it affected the MPG, of course we all know about the added weight but just doesn't feel as efficient. Those who haven't owned both probably won't get what I'm talking about. Just a butt feeling I guess.

2) DCT is much smoother than it's previous generation SMG II, yes it's better but cannot compare to a PDK or the tranny in the 458 Italia. At lower speeds it's not as intuitive. For example if you had to hit the brakes at a red light, then it changes to green suddenly, the car's tranny does not know what gear to be in until you mash the throttle.

3) When you are backing out of a parking spot, you go from "R" to "1" and the car continues to roll back so you have to be careful to use your brake or you will slide right into the cars behind you. With manual it's never an issue.

4) When using the paddles, the 1-2 shift is either abrupt or requires quick shifts so pretty much useless. I found myself preferring to leave it in "D" mode and in the most aggressive mode. It's actually faster than using the paddles.


IF I can think of anything else, I'll reply later

1) DCT or MT is only as efficient as the shifter.
2) It's not an automatic, but an automated manual. If you drove a MT in that same situation - I doubt you could shift fast enough either. The 458's trans is made by the same company that makes the m3 DCT trans - Getrag
3) What?! A MT would do the same if you didn't put you foot on the brake.
4) What car are you driving?? My DCT M3 doesn't do anything like this, maybe you need a software upgrade.

[GMe90]

Originally Posted by ChrisMT79

That is why I suggested repurposing the question-
If you are normally MT driver why did you choose the DCT?
Obviously the MT is a dying breed and technology unfortunately. And I am just as guilty to have purchase an automatic in previous years to allow for a family and others to drive it if the occasion necessitates. I think that anyone that drives a MT with any regularity would always say that it can be more fun and engaging to drive. For me personally I plan to squeeze every ounce of enjoyment my driving ability will allow me. But because I am buying a MT, I obviously would not know the experience of a DCT, other than to ask someone who was a regular MT driver who made the DCT choice to enlighten us.

I don't think that MT is dying. Road and Track recently republished an article from 50 years ago, which at that time made the same arguments we hear today, which is that MT is a dying technology. Fifty years later, the MT is alive and well and will continue to be for many years to come, at least with cars that are appropriate for the use of MT (excludes SUVs, cars like Toyota Camrys).

I think many MT drivers switch to DCT/Steptronic because of issues unrelated to the driving enjoyment experience, such as a spouse who cannot drive stick, bumper to bumper traffic, better financial deals on used cars with auto transmissions, etc. For most, there are multiple factors that go into making that switch and not just "which one is more fun."

[ChrisK]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

Thanks S4play, helpful comments. I am back to thinking that there is no way that DCT can provide the control that a clutch provides in snow or oversteer or burnouts. Plus $2800 and 89lbs. It just seems so cool, with the hyper fast shifts, and the supposedly higher gas mileage.

DCT does great in snow (Chicago). Three years worth so far.
You can easily do a burnout - turn of traction control.
You do get better mpg with the DCT. I consistently get 18.5mpg in my M3

DCT - you get launch control.


I drove manuals for 30 years. DCT is the best of both worlds.

In traffic - DCT saved my left leg from getting any bigger. MT folks will get this.

[ChrisK]

Originally Posted by GMe90

I don't think that MT is dying. Road and Track recently republished an article from 50 years ago, which at that time made the same arguments we hear today, which is that MT is a dying technology. Fifty years later, the MT is alive and well and will continue to be for many years to come, at least with cars that are appropriate for the use of MT (excludes SUVs, cars like Toyota Camrys).

I think many MT drivers switch to DCT/Steptronic because of issues unrelated to the driving enjoyment experience, such as a spouse who cannot drive stick, bumper to bumper traffic, better financial deals on used cars with auto transmissions, etc. For most, there are multiple factors that go into making that switch and not just "which one is more fun."

Some of switch because we like new tech!

[s4play]

Originally Posted by ChrisK

1) DCT or MT is only as efficient as the shifter.
2) It's not an automatic, but an automated manual. If you drove a MT in that same situation - I doubt you could shift fast enough either. The 458's trans is made by the same company that makes the m3 DCT trans - Getrag
3) What?! A MT would do the same if you didn't put you foot on the brake.
4) What car are you driving?? My DCT M3 doesn't do anything like this, maybe you need a software upgrade.

Chris, I assume you have a DCT so I understand you need to defend it. No problem.

My answers:

1) I'm not sure what you mean by the "shifter" are you referring to the human driving the car? I don't see how that eliminates the added weight penalty nor the added drive train losses of the fancy gear box.

2) I know what a DCT is, it's not an automatic like my last ISF which actually is a better tranny for DD. The DCT is not perfectly smooth in many real life situations such as sudden stop and then accelerating unless you just mash the throttle at every light.

Yes again I'm aware Getrag makes both but pretty sure it's like saying both the 3000GT VR4 and m3 feel the same. The 458 does not drive or react like the M3 DCT, it's not the same feeling. Porsches PDK is also a DCT but it has much better programming and is more intuitive than the m3 DCT. Go drive one sometime.

3) Sorry if I was not clear but with a manual, I have control of the clutch to engage immediately so car will not slide back the minute I go into gear. If you've driven stick 30 years you know what I'm talking about. We put the car in reverse, as it's backing out we move to first gear and release the clutch to immediately go forward without hitting the brake. With the DCT it won't engage right away if you go from R to 1 when you hit the gas, it continues to slide back for a brief moment.

4) Mine was a 09 e90 m3 - everything was stock.

[s4play]

Originally Posted by GMe90

So the takeaway from this debate is that people who prefer the manual will buy the manual and vice versa. Then they will try to convince the other that they made the wrong choice.

Not true, I'm not trying to convince anyone - could care less what you buy!

All I was doing is stating my observations comparing both. I tried DCT and really disliked it. I do understand some peope's need for a DCT. I will state if you must get a DCT, go buy a Porsche with the PDK, it's a much more intuitive and smarter tranny.

For an M3 I'm going back a 6MT next round.

[ChrisK]

Originally Posted by s4play

Chris, I assume you have a DCT so I understand you need to defend it. No problem.

My answers:

1) I'm not sure what you mean by the "shifter" are you referring to the human driving the car? I don't see how that eliminates the added weight penalty nor the added drive train losses of the fancy gear box.

2) I know what a DCT is, it's not an automatic like my last ISF which actually is a better tranny for DD. The DCT is not perfectly smooth in many real life situations such as sudden stop and then accelerating unless you just mash the throttle at every light.

Yes again I'm aware Getrag makes both but pretty sure it's like saying both the 3000GT VR4 and m3 feel the same. The 458 does not drive or react like the M3 DCT, it's not the same feeling. Porsches PDK is also a DCT but it has much better programming and is more intuitive than the m3 DCT. Go drive one sometime.

3) Sorry if I was not clear but with a manual, I have control of the clutch to engage immediately so car will not slide back the minute I go into gear. If you've driven stick 30 years you know what I'm talking about. We put the car in reverse, as it's backing out we move to first gear and release the clutch to immediately go forward without hitting the brake. With the DCT it won't engage right away if you go from R to 1 when you hit the gas, it continues to slide back for a brief moment.

4) Mine was a 09 e90 m3 - everything was stock.

Bottom line, it sounds like had the buggie DCT software that got fixed in early 2010.

[stressdoc]

Both have their advantages.
DCT faster shifts, electronic control over launch, auto-like convenience in traffic.
Manual has a clutch, allowing immediate control over drivetrain, hence ability to rock back & forth to get out when stuck in snow, modulate wheelspin in burnouts, etc.
MPG seems to be uncertain.

DCT seems upscale & techie to me, plus you can just put it in auto and forget about it when you want.

Manual is old-fashioned, tiresome at times, but it's what I am trained to drive with, and it provides more control.

Tough to evaluate how important the 89 lbs is. $2900 is an easier metric.

Are there any significant differences in maintenance costs?

I am still on the fence. Really tough decision. Don't imagine my dealer would lend me an E90 M3 w/ DCT for the weekend...

Not to go too far off topic, but damn, I am having a hard time deciding on adaptive suspension and cloth seats as well. And YMB... The 19" wheels, provided they are forged, and the HK stereo are the only easy boxes to check for me.

[Sir Loin]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

Are there any significant differences in maintenance costs?

I'd imagine that DCT is better for the clutch's life as the computer controls it. DCT also would not let you downshift when you are already at or close to redline, another feature to protect the transmission.

[jbraslins]

Owned many manuals before E90 with DCT. DCT is more fun on track for me. DCT is also fun to downshift in traffic, burping at cars and pedestrians (hot girls) as you go past them. On twisty roads, I find pulling paddles with instant response just as engaging and fun as rowing through manual gears. Especially downshifts.

Finally, if I get tipsy, my wife can drive us home in D.

DCT again in F80 for me.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by Sir Loin

I'd imagine that DCT is better for the clutch's life as the computer controls it. DCT also would not let you downshift when you are already at or closes to redline, another feature to protect the transmission.

As I understand it the DCT is maintenance free unless it breaks when the whole thing is replaced to a tune of ~$14k. Not sure if that's a myth or true. Mine has needed no maintenance this far.

[Denk]

DCT would be my ultimate choice buying untested...based on e9x experiences. As with the e9x, I've gotta test drive both first and with an open mind. I'll decide in year 3 of the F8x what I'd get...if either at all. Might just keep trucking with my e92.