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      12-01-2017, 04:04 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Maybe so CAM. But, the PSC2 are optional, no? I think you had mentioned that in a prior thread. If that's indeed the case, most of that isn't even included in the $97.5k base price of the car. The DCT tweaks might be. But again, we are talking about what are likely minor tweaks from the ZCP package anyway.



Fair enough. Even so, track specific pads would still be a marked improvement over the stock ones once you to go for more than a couple laps. Should BMW put track pads on a factory car? No, probably not. Still the fact remains that if you are buying an M3 and planning to go to the track, when determining where to allocate money toward that goal, putting a few hundred on track pads makes a lot more sense than starting out by shelling out $30k+ to upgrade to the CS.

Let's see if BMW upgrades their fleet of M3's at their performance schools to M3 CS. What do you think? I doubt it. Perhaps they'll receive a few - we'll see.



But we're way off course from where the discussion started which is basic value.

The M3 CS does have some added content with real value, sure. But the car is simply not offering a $30k better track experience than a base M3. I've already presented a few reasoned arguments as to why.

If you want another, look at value within the existing portfolio of the M3 family. How about a ZCP M3? Let's say for the sake of argument that that one does indeed offer a $5k better track experience than a base M3. I can get on board with that. After all, you do get 19 more hp, which is probably just enough to be noticeable, and you also get some tweaks of the variety that CAM mentioned, not to mention wider rubber. And heck, it comes with some nice visual improvements on top of all of that. So, sure, that one isn't too hard to argue the value of.

But now you want me to pony up $25k (5x the price of the competition package) more for 10 more hp, and some more aesthetic changes that, while nice to look at sure, are really just a different take on the same car? To me it is easy to see why, by and large, the tone of this thread is that the numbers just don't work. It's just not an easy sell no matter how hard they are trying with the marketing campaign.



I think the reason why so few people agree those two situations are really equal is elementary.

With the 911, we don't have the situation where there is a variant/package that offers reasonable content: ~5% more power, some chassis tweaks, and some aesthetic upgrades for a less than 10% up-charge from the base model... *and then* another 911 variant that offers a tiny 2% additional bump in power, some marginal additional chassis tweaks, and some different aesthetic enhancements, for... wait for it... nearly 50% more over the price of the base car.

Instead, with a 911 what do you get if you pony up 50% more cash over the base Carrera? You get a GT3, that's what. If the M3 CS, offered content anything like what the GT3 has, would we even be having this discussion? No. If the 911 GT3 offered content anything like what the M3 CS does, would it have anywhere near the cult-like status it does? No way in hell.
I also think the CS models are thin on value. I would have preferred less show and more go. For instance, if they would have given us the 500hp water injected engine and MP HAS while keeping the standard CP interior, they would have made a much more appealing package.
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      12-01-2017, 04:11 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I also think the CS models are thin on value. I would have preferred less show and more go. For instance, if they would have given us the 500hp water injected engine and MP HAS while keeping the standard CP interior, they would have made a much more appealing package.
that would have been SOOOO awesome! water injected engine for the win!
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      12-01-2017, 04:23 PM   #333
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I also think the CS models are thin on value. I would have preferred less show and more go. For instance, if they would have given us the 500hp water injected engine and MP HAS while keeping the standard CP interior, they would have made a much more appealing package.
And widen the rear hips of the M3 cs a bit. I bet that would sell some cars by itself.



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      12-01-2017, 04:25 PM   #334
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Read my post above wrt to limited slip in the base 911. Doubt you’d even know unless you were someone like Randy Pobst. And even he’d say you don’t need one.
I'm sorry man, that's just nickel and diming on a sports car.

I don't want to be a badge whore by some people's definition driving Porsche's version of the 320i. (see post #271)
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      12-01-2017, 04:33 PM   #335
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iMinLuv View Post
Camaro ZL1 1LE smoked that for 20k less. BMW is wild with their pricing
Camara ZL1 1LE smoked the 991 GT3 RS at the Lightning Lap for what, 1/4 of the price?

So if BMW is out of their minds with their pricing, what is Porsche? If all you're interested is the lap time, the Viper has been winning that metric for a few years already
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Camaro ZL1 1LE smoked that for 20k less. BMW is wild with their pricing
Camara ZL1 1LE smoked the 991 GT3 RS at the Lightning Lap for what, 1/4 of the price?

So if BMW is out of their minds with their pricing, what is Porsche? If all you're interested is the lap time, the Viper has been winning that metric for a few years already
Viper also more than ZL1. I'm saying you don't get enough performance for the money with BMW I don't car about Dodge or Porsche I like BMWs but they're crazy in their pricing on this one with what's in the market place for less money
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      12-01-2017, 04:35 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Figurka View Post
Base M5 .... plus some options it's easy 120K
Sigh. Okay man. I do not see how what you are saying is any different than what I am, namely, that for close to $97k I can possibly get an ED M5 (I did not say with options, and I tend to like my cars base) or a nicely optioned 911....

Are you just arguing with me now to argue? My OPINION is that for that amount of money, namely $98k including destination I could possibly get a base M5 for ED (which right now seems unlikely for the M3 CS) or a 911 with options without sweating the price difference too much.

I guess my point is that when we start getting closer to $100k, there are many more options for not that much money more. Relatively of course.

Basically, no M3, no matter how special, is worth $100k in my opinion. But again my opinion
That would still be
A bargain in Australia!!
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      12-01-2017, 05:50 PM   #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I also think the CS models are thin on value. I would have preferred less show and more go. For instance, if they would have given us the 500hp water injected engine and MP HAS while keeping the standard CP interior, they would have made a much more appealing package.
Absolutely. In fact, had they announced a product with those specifications, at the CS price, I have no doubt that the overall tone would be much more positive. Would there still be criticism? Sure. But I think it would be the exception, not the rule.

And that's why I ultimately can't agree with this statement:

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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
I am willing to bet money that it wouldn't matter what performance the CS/GTS have, most of the haters will be here hating.
There is definitely plenty of M3 hate out there, so I can appreciate your general sentiment. Some people are just going to dump on whatever BMW puts out. Indeed, the "Vs." forum is frequently host to lopsided discussions about why BMW M has lost their way and why Porsche is the only performance car worth a damn anymore.

But that's very different from what I see here. I see plenty of comments from people who already own and love an M3 - some of them with cars spec'd up over $80k, mind you, so they are very willing to pay to play - failing to be sold on the M3 CS. Sour grapes? I don't think that's it. It's just that the package simply isn't that compelling to the general audience. That's probably perfectly fine with BMW though - they only expect to move 550 in the US, and I'm sure that's doable. Now, how quickly we go from dealer markup to under MSRP will be entertaining to watch.
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      12-01-2017, 08:39 PM   #338
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I actually think it's a good thing for used F80 values. Think about used Nissan GTR and Audi R8 prices and how they've gone up

GTR used to be 70k car during initial launch, now it's 110K.

Less than 10 months of production remaining for F80, so BMW is just trying to clear their parts and trying to give one last hurrah until the upcoming G whatever M3
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      12-01-2017, 09:24 PM   #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkhm3 View Post
And widen the rear hips of the M3 cs a bit. I bet that would sell some cars by itself.



i kid.
It's already better looking than the M4, no need to mess with what works there.

I have no kids and don't need 4 doors, but got the M3 because it looks much better to me.
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      12-01-2017, 09:59 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
It's already better looking than the M4, no need to mess with what works there.

I have no kids and don't need 4 doors, but got the M3 because it looks much better to me.
Looks like we have that in common.
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      12-01-2017, 10:00 PM   #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XsltAnalyst View Post
I actually think it's a good thing for used F80 values. Think about used Nissan GTR and Audi R8 prices and how they've gone up

GTR used to be 70k car during initial launch, now it's 110K.

Less than 10 months of production remaining for F80, so BMW is just trying to clear their parts and trying to give one last hurrah until the upcoming G whatever M3
I think you're right.
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      12-01-2017, 10:15 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkhm3 View Post
And widen the rear hips of the M3 cs a bit. I bet that would sell some cars by itself.



i kid.
It's already better looking than the M4, no need to mess with what works there.

I have no kids and don't need 4 doors, but got the M3 because it looks much better to me.
It's funny because imo M4 looks much better. I've owned both cars. 17 M3 comp and now 18 M4 comp.
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      12-01-2017, 10:17 PM   #343
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Aren't slightly used M4 GTS's going for $100k? Wouldn't one just get the "superior" car that only has a few miles on it?
GTS is too pure track I e race car ish whereas the CS is more street and track so no I'd prefer the new CS with two additional doors for the same money.
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      12-01-2017, 10:19 PM   #344
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btdt - Porsches aren't that much more expensive. Fact

Ferraris though...
Yes they are lol.

A used 2016 GT3 sells easily 25k above sticker. I dare you to find a BMW currently that has that mark on it.

Porsches are more expensive by a good margin when you look at their better trims. GTS especially (Macan, Cayenne... 911? Cayman?)
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      12-01-2017, 10:31 PM   #345
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It's funny because imo M4 looks much better. I've owned both cars. 17 M3 comp and now 18 M4 comp.
Maybe I’m just jaded but it looks too long or something to me. There’s an aspect to the proportions that just seems a bit off. I feel the same way about the 2er (same sort of complaint).
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      12-01-2017, 10:34 PM   #346
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GTS is too pure track I e race car ish whereas the CS is more street and track so no I'd prefer the new CS with two additional doors for the same money.
I really agree with mkoesel - if the had kept the ZCP interior for the CS, but included the water injection system, they’d have had a much better winner on their hands.

The M3 CS in current form seems a bit muddled.
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      12-01-2017, 10:38 PM   #347
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GTS is too pure track I e race car ish whereas the CS is more street and track so no I'd prefer the new CS with two additional doors for the same money.
I really agree with mkoesal - if the had kept the ZCP interior for the CS, but included the water injection system, they’d have had a much better winner on their hands.

The M3 CS in current form seems a bit muddled.
Agree as well. ZCP is so close to CS from drivetrain perspective.
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      12-01-2017, 11:03 PM   #348
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Yes they are lol.

A used 2016 GT3 sells easily 25k above sticker. I dare you to find a BMW currently that has that mark on it.

Porsches are more expensive by a good margin when you look at their better trims. GTS especially (Macan, Cayenne... 911? Cayman?)
I think it really depends from a new standpoint - my 981 CS and F80 ZCP were in the same ballpark.

Maintenance on the other hand, is definitely more expensive.
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      12-02-2017, 01:12 AM   #349
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Lol overpriced. I'll buy a used r8 or new Gtr
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      12-02-2017, 01:23 AM   #350
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Quote:
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Yes they are lol.

A used 2016 GT3 sells easily 25k above sticker. I dare you to find a BMW currently that has that mark on it.

Porsches are more expensive by a good margin when you look at their better trims. GTS especially (Macan, Cayenne... 911? Cayman?)
A rwd 911 GTS is where it is at for $123k. GT3 is a great car, but far less practical than the GTS, with the GTS winning the tuning game by a large margin. A truckload more money(initial cost and maint) for the same 0-60 time and 2/10ths and 1mph in the 1/4? No Way.
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      12-02-2017, 05:17 AM   #351
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Standard F8X M cars sell for 100K.

Comp package for 110K.

So that price in Kuwait is a steal
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      12-02-2017, 05:29 AM   #352
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Everyone [says] I should have a spec miata, plus a trailer, plus a tow vehicle to do all these track days. Why? A pretty close to stock M3 ... is fast enough to whoop all these P car fanboys
That's also why I don't spend $$$ on a fancy gym:

None of those 10 year-olds I box has ever won a round against me.
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