BMW M4 CS vs Camaro ZL1 1LE

[CirrusSR22]

Originally Posted by F80Moe

Louder (Some linings have been ditched like the trunk)

I don’t believe that’s accurate for the 1LE. It was stripped of that stuff in the old Z/28.

“the engineering manager for the Camaro 1LEs and ZL1s, admits that he wanted to make the car a bit more extreme by ditching some creature comforts—the trunk lining, for example. He was thwarted by GM historians who wanted to keep the 1LE true to its roots as an additive option, not a give-and-then-take one, a philosophy that dates to the third-generation Camaro. Unlike the last-generation Z/28, this 1LE has all the features of the ZL1”

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...t-drive-review

[F80Moe]

Originally Posted by CirrusSR22

I don’t believe that’s accurate for the 1LE. It was stripped of that stuff in the old Z/28.

“the engineering manager for the Camaro 1LEs and ZL1s, admits that he wanted to make the car a bit more extreme by ditching some creature comforts—the trunk lining, for example. He was thwarted by GM historians who wanted to keep the 1LE true to its roots as an additive option, not a give-and-then-take one, a philosophy that dates to the third-generation Camaro. Unlike the last-generation Z/28, this 1LE has all the features of the ZL1”

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...t-drive-review

Thanks for the correction

Thought it would be like the Z/28

[CirrusSR22]

Originally Posted by F80Moe

Thanks for the correction

Thought it would be like the Z/28

Hopefully they make a new Z/28 that IS stripped!

[sycd]

Zl1 is tempting, but zl1 1le too extreme unless you track the car.

The interior of the camaro is so bad compared to the M, and the camaros don't age well in the looks category.

Tech in the M? The only tech I have in mine is a nav I never use, but I don't buy a car for its "tech".

[Swiftym3]

ran a 2017 ZL1 on the highway ... took everything i had to stay in front of it ... and i mean everything

[RobbyMack]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

OK, I guess we just have different ideas of what is ok to daily drive

Very true. I'd simply posit that the lack of visibility is unnerving (ymmv). For the record I've only driven the SS but it remains to this day the only rental I've ever returned within 5 mins of pick up simply because I was that uncomfortable with the visibility. I was driving a good distance that day in a town Id never been in so that played a part as well.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by RobbyMack

Very true. I'd simply posit that the lack of visibility is unnerving (ymmv). For the record I've only driven the SS but it remains to this day the only rental I've ever returned within 5 mins of pick up simply because I was that uncomfortable with the visibility. I was driving a good distance that day in a town Id never been in so that played a part as well.

too bad you didn't keep it.. It would have been an awesome rental. SS was always one of my favorites from Avis

I used to daily a Z435 and I guess I got used to so-so visibility, and recently did a 1hr drive from the track in a spec miata so I guess my tolerance for crap/non existent interior and really stiff suspensions is a lot higher than others

EDIT: now that M3 CS has been confirmed, I guess my interest in ZL1 1LE type chevys has gone down again. I just can't get over the idea of how much performance BMW stuffs into a 4dr/5 seats sedan and that body shape is a "trump card" that lets me forgive the M3 even if it gets edged out a little bit in performance. Vs. with M4 ZCP, I keep judging it in my head as an 'all out' sports car because it has the word "competition" in the model name and it has the same less practical 2 dr / 4 seats shape

Edit2: I was mistaken about the m3 cs performance level (7:38s ring time) and zl1 1le performance and price ($72k, 7:16s ring time). That's next level performance for what will likely be ~$20k less cost. Wow.

[bazil769]

Updated the title.

[Dethsupp0rt]

Originally Posted by bazil769

Updated the title.

Doesn't really change anything. If you have no intentions of tracking the car on a regular basis, the ZL1 1LE is not a good choice.

M4 CS vs. regular ZL1 . . . well, that depends on how much luxury you want and are willing to pay for. I'll still bet the ZL1 is a better driving/riding car, and no doubt for a lot less money.

As an aside, I'm not sure where people are getting the BMW has better 'tech'. Granted, I didn't tick all the boxes when I had my M3, but there's way more tech. in the Camaro. The overall interior is obviously not as nice, but it's a big step up from the last gen.

[CirrusSR22]

ZL1 1LE just beat the 2018 911 GT3 around a track (NCM), at less than half the price

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...r-of-the-year/

[jpdchicago]

The actual buyer of those cars (not the online basher on either side) is NOT going to cross shop Between those 2.
Right comparison is Camaro Zl1LE vs Mustang GT350 R or M4CS vs 911GTS.
All that stuff about more bang for your buck for the Camaro but crappy interior or waste of money for the CS but better build is totally irrelevant.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by jpdchicago

The actual buyer of those cars (not the online basher on either side) is NOT going to cross shop Between those 2.
Right comparison is Camaro Zl1LE vs Mustang GT350 R or M4CS vs 911GTS.
All that stuff about more bang for your buck for the Camaro but crappy interior or waste of money for the CS but better build is totally irrelevant.

I keep seeing posts like these from both my Mustang forum and on here. I completely disagree. For fanboys of a specific brand or the I only buy American or German crowd etc yes this is true.

But, I’ve ran into plenty of people here and other forums that don’t care about that stuff and just like cars. They cross shop everything and buy them based on what is available at the time. There are many more people out there like that than most think. Me being one of them.

My perfect garage is keeping my GT350 and making it a caged track car and then having a 911 GTS along side of it for DD and occasional track fun for the hell of it.

[REDEV217342]

Originally Posted by jpdchicago

The actual buyer of those cars (not the online basher on either side) is NOT going to cross shop Between those 2.
Right comparison is Camaro Zl1LE vs Mustang GT350 R or M4CS vs 911GTS.
All that stuff about more bang for your buck for the Camaro but crappy interior or waste of money for the CS but better build is totally irrelevant.

You are going to have your buyers that care first and foremost about the badge on the hood.......and gasp......could never drive a car with a bowtie or blue oval on it. Yes, there are a ton of those like that.

Like Minn said you would be surprised how many Porsche owners and BMW owners actually cross shop these cars. I,personally, do not like the Camaro (but respect the hell out of it) but love love love the GT350. I have owned three C6 Vettes (including a Z06), a 996 Turbo, 997 Turbo, 997.1S, 987 CaymanS, 981 BoxsterS, two E92M3's, E60 M5, F82M4 in addition to a GTR. I drive a Toyota Crewmax 1794 pick-up to work everyday. I couldn't give two shits about the interior of my weekend car.....it's a fun performance and 3-4 event per year track car. Now that I think about it, I obviously don't give two shits about the interior of my daily driver as well. The 1794 is loaded with cheap plastic.

Real car guys couldn't care less about the emblem on the hood.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by REDEV217342

Real car guys couldn't care less about the emblem on the hood.

+1

[adc]

I had a ride in a ZL1 automatic at VIR with an instructor. Before you comment, , know that he had a deposit on a 1LE.

Obviously a better driver than I am, significantly so. Not only in terms of laptime (although that too) but more car control, feel, confidence and overall skill. He posted a good time on VIR Grand (same layout as C&D Lightning Lap) - a 2:56 repeatedly with me in the car, and a bit of sprinkled traffic.

From the passenger seat, my takeaways were: superb engine, good brakes, excellent chassis setup all marred by that kid in a bathtub Camaro feel and seats that look fabulous but are so wide and un-grippy that I came away with bruises (oh yeah, and no good door handle).

He has ridden with me in the M3 at Watkins Glen and was very impressed from the passenger seat. His comment at VIR was that the Camaro is similar in driving dynamics to an M3, but with 650HP.

So in my conclusion the Camaro is a similar driving car, with worse ergonomics, lots more power and ancillaries that were designed for the level of power and speed (suspension, wheels, brakes etc).


I personally wouldn’t buy one. I want my next M to be Euro Delivery again, the experience is incredible and I don’t feel shortchanged by owning a slower car. It’s still an excellent car to learn and perfect driving classic driving skills, and get soothed on the daily grind with all sorts of tech doodads.

But yeah, the ZL1 is a hell of a car.

[uniqueMR]

M4, enough said

[Salespunk]

The real comparison is M4 GTS vs Camaro ZL1 1LE. The 1LE is not a real daily driver with the solid suspension mounts, front lip etc. Could you do it, yes, would 99% of people want to, no way.

Personally as a weekend toy I will take the 1LE all day every day. I want my weekend car to be an event to drive and the standard M4 just does not fill that role. Daily driver M4 (really M3 for me) because it is a fast and comfortable vehicle that can fulfill both roles and still get to work in relative comfort.

[azn_fcuk]

As much as I love the car, I have a hard time putting my money down on American muscle... the car as amazing and damn fast! But it is is like having kids... I love to hang out with my friends kids but I’m not interested in owning one, just borrowing it from time to time.
Lol

[torment]

Test drove a ZL1 before my F80 CP, incredibly fast. Lots of features for the money and it sounded incredible. Just wasn’t as nice or well put together as my M. And there’s a million Camaros in Oklahoma so it just blends in like crazy. Didn’t drive the 1LE because they were asking over sticker and it’s too rough for roads here.

Monster power though. Seriously. Getting wiggly at 65 on the highway is rather disconcerting lol

[M-Pilot]

I haven't driven one yet but rode in a SS 1LE which has the same magnetic ride suspension as the base ZL1 and ride comfort was noticeably better than my ZCP. I would seriously consider one if the rear seats weren't completely useless. If won't be able to use the rear seats, getting a Corvette GS seems more reasonable but the Vette is almost $80k.

[Dethsupp0rt]

Originally Posted by cntzl

If won't be able to use the rear seats, getting a Corvette GS seems more reasonable but the Vette is almost $80k.

Nah, $80K will get you a pretty nice Z06. When I was getting my ZL1, there were GSs for about the same price as the Camaro. Deals are even better now that it's winter time, and the 2019s are due to start production in just a couple of weeks.

[M-Pilot]

Originally Posted by Dethsupp0rt

Nah, $80K will get you a pretty nice Z06. When I was getting my ZL1, there were GSs for about the same price as the Camaro. Deals are even better now that it's winter time, and the 2019s are due to start production in just a couple of weeks.

Really? Good to know!