BMW employee on new M3/M4: sloppy talentless drivers need not apply

[Robert B]

I'm not the surprised at the comment. My F10 M5 is an absolute handful to drive with DSC off and it will get your attention in MDM. While it is lots of fun to mash the throtle and feel the rear end fish tail around when going straight, my sense of self-preservation has prevented me from trying to do that in a curve. I would expect the M4 to demand at least as much respect from its drivers.

[JoeFromPA]

Originally Posted by Robert B

I'm not the surprised at the comment. My F10 M5 is an absolute handful to drive with DSC off and it will get your attention in MDM. While it is lots of fun to mash the throtle and feel the rear end fish tail around when going straight, my sense of self-preservation has prevented me from trying to do that in a curve. I would expect the M4 to demand at least as much respect from its drivers.

I've gone too hot into a corner in my ~3900 pound e39 m5 on slick road with DSC off.

It was a mistake. I am very lucky to have not torn up the car - I basically did a 180 and then continued spinning backwards as I slid into thick muddy soil which effectively slowed me down with no damage.

[Denk]

This is good to know. I'll be sure to bring my helmet for the test drive...

[e92pvaz]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

I've gone too hot into a corner in my ~3900 pound e39 m5 on slick road with DSC off.

It was a mistake. I am very lucky to have not torn up the car - I basically did a 180 and then continued spinning backwards as I slid into thick muddy soil which effectively slowed me down with no damage.

+1 on the m5 is a beast, at the perf driving school in South Carolina I almost went off the track in a bad area with the M5 in MDM mode. Instructor stopped the whole session and brought us in for a talk. Embarrassing for me but you definitely learn to be easy on the pedals! That being said e92 was much easier to handle , most likely due to weight

[gee-m-w]

Everyone likes the idea of lighter cars, but lighter cars spin more easily. They spin less spectacularly than if you lose a heavy car, but they spin more often. Audi has a good thing going where I can be full throttle at the apex because of the quattro and the active sports differential. Try that in an M3 and you're going backwards into a wall.

One of the safer cars I've ridden in at the track is the Audi A3 VR6, which is basically a front wheel drive car with an open diff (and some haldex AWD that occasionally sends power to the rear). It basically slipped through every turn. You could be full throttle every turn and it would just slip a wheel if you sent too much torque down.

[Randy M]

Audi's are great after the apex...

[ixse]

Originally Posted by Rated R

Audi's are great after the apex...

not really.. from apex to corner exit, you try to put your foot down, all it wants to do is wash away (understeer). very boring car to drive at the limit. guess R8 is different, but never driven it.

[gee-m-w]

Originally Posted by ixse

not really.. from apex to corner exit, you try to put your foot down, all it wants to do is wash away (understeer). very boring car to drive at the limit. guess R8 is different, but never driven it.

This may have been true at one point, but is not true on the newer platforms (B8) from 2008+. Here is my car from last weekend:

[Realw5]

Originally Posted by gee-m-w

This may have been true at one point, but is not true on the newer platforms (B8) from 2008+. Here is my car from last weekend:

Thunderhill is a great track! I'm 30 minutes from it, and cannot wait to get my M4 out there!

Nice video!

[JoeFromPA]

AWD allows you to basically go full throttle whenever the heck you want and, assuming you aren't too hot already, you are fine. AWD and mid-engine cars are very user friendly in that regard.

In regards to lighter cars being more easy to spin, I completely disagree. They have far less inertia so it is far easier to reign them back in once control is lost.

I recently had an incredibly important lesson in vehicle weight importance. I know it's not track driving, but here's my story:

I had my 2007 vw touareg v10 tdi, a 6000 pound vehicle, loaded up with 3 adult passengers and my son in a car seat. Probably 7000 total loaded pounds in the vehicle.

I hit a patch of ice on a MINOR downhill going about 10mph. I hit my brakes.

The slide was just ridiculous. I'm used to 3500-3900 pound vehicles losing traction and the level of control you have at those weights and relative inertia. You hit ice in a 3500 pound vehicle at 10mph, you slide let's say 50 feet between friction slows you enough for your tires to grab again.

When I hit that ice in my 6000lb vehicle at 10mph, I slid about 125 feet. The only thing I accomplished with my efforts was turning the front of the vehicle to an angle in case I was t-boned (I slid into a busy intersection).

...

I share this because the importance of low weight is so critical to regaining control once it is lost. Yes, given an equal contact patch a lower weight vehicle will exert less friction on a given surface. But once that contact patch loses traction, a lower weight vehicle will much more easily regain traction than the same heavier vehicle in the same situation. That's because it requires less friction to take control of the lighter vehicle.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by ///M235i

Btw, I did not intend to be too defensive here. I want to thank you for sharing this. I hope I'm not being a tool about it.


Please tell me about your C63! I love that car. How does it feel coming from your M sport f30 335, and are seriously considering switching back to the f80? C63 pics get you bonus points for sure!

No not at all! By sharing the quote I was hoping to generate some discussion. All of your points were reasonable and well-taken.

Whenever you get a quote from a manufacturer employee, it would be smart to digest the content of it with a grain of salt. However, if there is some truth to the fact that the new F80 M3 is a pure driver's car that rewards driving talent, that is very exciting for all of the enthusiasts here.

Even if the quote was a bit over the top (i.e., that it was mostly marketing hype), it's refreshing that BMW M is genuinely excited about what it has accomplished/achieved with this new M3, the flagship of the M brand.

This community is full of excellent, safe drivers that enjoy the full performance of their cars responsibly on the track. We'll get a better sense of what kind of car the F80 M3 is after some of us here get a chance to drive it.

I can't wait to read the opinions and comparisons from current/former E9X M3 drivers after they get a crack at thrashing the F80. We're fortunate to have many objective-minded members that really know their stuff when it comes to "performance" cars.

And regarding the C63, I'll shoot you a PM here soon.

In the meantime, I can say that there were certain attributes/characteristics that got me very excited about the W204 C63. At this point, all indications point to the F80 M3 having the same or similar attributes/characteristics.

Consequently, if I like what I experience when I finally get some seat time with it, I wouldn't hesitate to pick one up after my W204 is gone.

[Year's_End]

This makes me want to drive one even more.

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

High power, high torque, RWD, low weight cars are always more difficult to drive. ESPECIALLY vehicles that are turbocharged and have torque "pop" on.

The m3 is going to be around a 12 second even quarter mile vehicle. Possibly high 11's. This is ALOT of power and, yes, in a lightweight RWD vehicle is going to be beyond what most people can handle with traction control off.

It's also going to change directions faster due to additional chassis stiffening and it looks like M may have made this vehicle a bit more track oriented as well.

The e46 m3 was a lot of car for a lot of owners (especially younger/inexperience owners) to handle.

And the f8x platform is a helluva lot more performance than an e46.

Wait, the next generation M3/4 is now considered lightweight? Wow BMW marketing really works!

[Richbot]

Sounds similar in character to power delivery of the 1M.

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by Richbot

Sounds similar in character to power delivery of the 1M.

EXACTLY what I was thinking.

Now we shall see if BMW's lawyers will tune the DSC to the same slip angle specs as say what the EU market gets. Me thinks not. (just like the e9x models)

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by Year's_End

This makes me want to drive one even more.

Precisely my thoughts after I read the quote. Regardless of whether it is partially marketing hype, it is very encouraging and exactly the sort of thing M drivers want to hear: that the car rewards meticulous, technically sound driving.

[krnnerdboy]

Originally Posted by Year's_End

This makes me want to drive one even more.

Agreed! It's what lured me to the m6, z06, boss302 and gt3. The m6 was a turd though.

[jrlee53]

Originally Posted by Sapper_M3

Exactly. It requires "a lot of talent" to drive..? This guy must be a near-pro level driver, like most BMW employees I know.

Haha. Didn't you know Bruno Spengler started out as BMW's janitor? Racing skills as soon as he got his employee ID card... with full dental and 401k, made him a RACING GOD!!

[dmboone25]

When will the magazines/online rags start getting their own drives in the M3/4??

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

I concur with the hearsay.

I've yet to push my F10 M5 with DSC OFF to even 50% of what I pushed my E60 M5 with DSC OFF. "The torque in these ///M turbo engines is lethal," and this I'm quoting from a BMW ///M Performance School Driving instructor. Given the new M3/M4 is about 1,000lbs lighter than an F10 M5, I'm going to go on a limb and say that it will probably be easier to drive with DSC OFF than an M5. I just can't wait to see what the new EPS is all about since it's the first true ///M car with it and BMW has made bold claims that it feels even better than the E92 M3 steering, which I find really hard to believe. Can't wait to drive one.

I also agree with the "hearsay" from the employee.

The turbo motor characteristics are going to simply catch many drivers off guard.

The 1M is without a doubt a difficult car to keep up with when all nannies off. The STIG ended up in the weeds once when turning in a hot lap for TOP GEAR. The simple fact is that TONS of torque ( more than a wimpy E9x M3 V8 hehehehehe) and then even over-boost make power delivery challenging. It's harder to achieve the same lap time as the e 9x M3 although the cars are very much equal and have the same suspension. The shorter wheelbase in the 1m is also a factor.

The other thing is how much mechanical grip is available. The 1M has crazy grip. But when it lets go.... It lets go! It takes fast hands a good driver to recover.

However, a more challenging car can also be entertaining. It's raw and sometimes unpredictable and drivers may call the car more a " drivers car" than something that simply tracks well and turns well and doesn't ever get the heart racing....

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

EXACTLY what I was thinking.

Now we shall see if BMW's lawyers will tune the DSC to the same slip angle specs as say what the EU market gets. Me thinks not. (just like the e9x models)

Or perhaps they already have ! LOL. Even if the engineers dumb down the car a bit, There are some people this side of the pond that can remap the car to EU settings..

I am seriously considering this for my car, if but to only remove the corner brake control.

[seccsc]

Not to beat a dead horse but It goes back to that old saying, Opinions are like butt-holes and everyone has one.
You ingest that tid-bit of knowledge and perspective. Later on use it for your assessment and of course whatever perspective deltas you may have.