GSR Autosport - F80 M3 / F82 M4 ECU Flash Tune - Expanding the Performance Envelope

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by RJM3

The fact that GSR can't even reply to their own thread or post more dyno files makes me think they don't have a thing.

Any company that has developed a tune would be more open and wouldn't have a problem to post any info regarding the new tune.

I say GSR don't have a tune or not even close to have one.

This is either really exciting or going to be some serious egg-on-the-face embarrassment... Come on GSR - post up some proof!

[bradleyland]

Couple of things for everyone to keep in mind:

1) You don't always have to crack the encryption, you only need to find a way around the implementation. Cell phone Jailbreaks are a great example of this. You don't attack the encryption head on, you look for deficiencies in the way that the encryption is implemented. Encryption is tremendously complex and very easy to get wrong.

2) Plenty of "CIA grade encryption" (whatever the fuck that is) gets "cracked" every day. OpenSSL, which is one of the most developed security libraries on the planet suffered from a little something that you might have heard about on the news: the heartbleed vulnerability. With this vulnerability, it doesn't matter if you were running a 4096-bit private key, the attacker could use the vuln to cause your server to leak the private key to untrusted clients.

3) Automotive ECU encryption gets a small fraction of the attention that is paid to things like web server security and cell phone jailbreaks. The companies that make web servers and cell phones are technology companies at their core, yet their shit gets cracked all the time. With the right amount of resources directed at their systems, I have serious doubts that BMW's implementation is completely unbreakable. You don't get to set the rules when the attackers come for your software.

I'm not saying GSR has done the unthinkable, but I am cautioning everyone to believe in the infallibility of the encryption that BMW has implemented. All encrypted systems look hard... until they're broken.

[VCP]

Curious if you are using ESYS to accomplish this.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Couple of things for everyone to keep in mind:...

Excellent contribution.

[Damasconian]

As a newbie to this forum, as well as a newcomer to flash tuning, can someone give me a quick rundown of what this is exactly.

You connect a car to a computer and it comes out with 50 more HP? Why didnt BMW just do this from the factory? How can you squeeze another 50HP without any hardware upgrades? Will it void the warranty?

Fascinating stuff.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Couple of things for everyone to keep in mind:

1) You don't always have to crack the encryption, you only need to find a way around the implementation. Cell phone Jailbreaks are a great example of this. You don't attack the encryption head on, you look for deficiencies in the way that the encryption is implemented. Encryption is tremendously complex and very easy to get wrong.

2) Plenty of "CIA grade encryption" (whatever the fuck that is) gets "cracked" every day. OpenSSL, which is one of the most developed security libraries on the planet suffered from a little something that you might have heard about on the news: the heartbleed vulnerability. With this vulnerability, it doesn't matter if you were running a 4096-bit private key, the attacker could use the vuln to cause your server to leak the private key to untrusted clients.

3) Automotive ECU encryption gets a small fraction of the attention that is paid to things like web server security and cell phone jailbreaks. The companies that make web servers and cell phones are technology companies at their core, yet their shit gets cracked all the time. With the right amount of resources directed at their systems, I have serious doubts that BMW's implementation is completely unbreakable. You don't get to set the rules when the attackers come for your software.

I'm not saying GSR has done the unthinkable, but I am cautioning everyone to believe in the infallibility of the encryption that BMW has implemented. All encrypted systems look hard... until they're broken.

Agreed... but how could one have translated the entire ECUs tables within days lol? This begs to ask, what are they actually modifying? Encryption is only one part of the process.

[VCP]

bingo

Originally Posted by ASAP

Agreed... but how could one have translated the entire ECUs tables within days lol? This begs to ask, what are they actually modifying? Encryption is only one part of the process.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Damasconian

As a newbie to this forum, as well as a newcomer to flash tuning, can someone give me a quick rundown of what this is exactly.

You connect a car to a computer and it comes out with 50 more HP? Why didnt BMW just do this from the factory? How can you squeeze another 50HP without any hardware upgrades? Will it void the warranty?

Fascinating stuff.

This is an easy answer as it hasn't changed since the first tuner started poking around with " points" and carbs

- the manufacturer designs, road tests, and tunes a vehicle for performance, reliability, and also a certain amount of fuel economy ( which is then tested and rated by the EPA in the US) and also provides a warranty.

- a tuner can provide more power but generally provides little to no guarantee of reliability ( note that this is not saying that the tune is not reliable) , and furthermore provides no warranty, with the exception of Dinan Engineering, who will warranty the vehicle for any failure caused by their products. Fuel economy may or may not suffer, depending on the tuner.


Is the OEM warranty voided by a tune? Yes , if the tune is what caused the failure then the manufacturer will not warranty it, and again, aside from dinan, the tuner doesn't provide any warranty

As far as further tuning, yes it's possible but generally dialing up the boost leads to less reliability, particularly over time

[Jblack4083]

LOL at people pretty much asking for GSR's trade secrets.

[Serious]

399-339 isn't 50whp guys.

[M3ANMACHINE]

Originally Posted by RJM3

The fact that GSR can't even reply to their own thread or post more dyno files makes me think they don't have a thing.

Any company that has developed a tune would be more open and wouldn't have a problem to post any info regarding the new tune.

I say GSR don't have a tune or not even close to have one.

Haha. They're running a shop which is their primary business.

You think they have time to be sitting on the computer 24/7 answering all of these questions?

I'm sure they will respond when it is convenient for them.

Everyone here is always so damn needy for answers instantly. Chill out.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by abe12345

Lack of low rpm torque is NOT turbo lag. After reading that I have trouble believing any of the qualitative claims

I didn't like the way that this was worded either, not to mention very few people have reported noticeable lag.

[pkimM3r]

saw this car along with the 228i at buttonwillow on saturday..in fact, this car is at the end of my video

how was she running there? which run group?

[jc05e46m3]

Originally Posted by Serious

399-339 isn't 50whp guys.

That point is just at 2785 rpms.... What exactly are you talking about? You're reading the torque curve, too.

[VCP]

I think asking questions to a company that will obviously try to sell this and start possibly voiding warranties is not something to laugh at. Unless this is a BMW tuned file then warranty should be OK. Get me Think back to 2007 when AC Schnitzer copied the Alpina B3 BMW file and tried to re market it as their own in the 335i.

Originally Posted by Jblack4083

LOL at people pretty much asking for GSR's trade secrets.

[m3heaven]

Originally Posted by M3ANMACHINE

Haha. They're running a shop which is their primary business.

You think they have time to be sitting on the computer 24/7 answering all of these questions?

I'm sure they will respond when it is convenient for them.

Everyone here is always so damn needy for answers instantly. Chill out.

+2

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Jblack4083

LOL at people pretty much asking for GSR's trade secrets.

What trade secrets? You mean the same things someone asks for when there is a new tune in town? Or the same things that were asked of M5 tuners with flashes that couldn't substantiate anything?

No one is asking for their encryption algorithm or how any part of that was bypassed. I think it's common sense to ask for a log of a stock car and a tuned car showing a few basic tables that would have needed to have been modified to make these changes. Cobb provided about 50 tables when the N54 flash was released lol with 0 holding back and allowed the user to make all changes. Except that took a year not days.

There is 0 secrets here if you can do this.

[biglare]

Originally Posted by GSR Autosport

To answer a few pressing questions from M3/4 post members and put some anxious minds at ease:

- Yes, the ECU flash is real, this is not a hoax! No smoke and mirrors, its not a reported Yeti sighting Hehe

- Yes, the ECU flash is done via the OBD2 Port just as the factory would do it.

- Yes, the Max speed limiter is deactivated (See Video Link on previous post)

- Data Logs and Related Information: We will post more information in the coming weeks as we are currently developing tunes for the F10 M5, the GSR 228i Racing Project, the 650 and 740 non M Turbo V8s, and the current Generation 35i engines.

Please be patient as there is a massive amount of work involved in bringing these products to market utilizing proper testing methodology and validation processes. It is our goal to present the community with the best possible products that combine amazing performance with factory reliability.

As you can imagine having an OBD2 Flash available for the current Untunable generation of vehicles is no easy feat. While we are new to this Forum, we are an established and respected company. We have a very talented and experienced team which brings unique technical capabilities to the BMW Marketplace. Check out our New Sponsor Intro Post or give us a call to find out more

Why don't you post the boost logs from your baseline and tuned Dyno's? That data should already be available and easy to show us!

[David1]

I would like to know what BMW has as far as tuner codes and flash tracking on the ECU.

[RingMeister01]

Originally Posted by biglare

Hearsay.....

+1 lmao

[modkrazy]

Originally Posted by parky1215

When they release this and M5 tune, we can all laugh at Dinan's piggyback system that costs few thousands dollars.

I'm pretty sure most people are laughing at it now.

[snaimpally]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Couple of things for everyone to keep in mind:

1) You don't always have to crack the encryption, you only need to find a way around the implementation.

Exactly. If someone can dream it up, someone else can dream up a way to bypass it. Look at DVD encryption - a 12 year old kid wanting to play DVDs on his Linux system cracked it.

Right now, some part in the engine has to decrypt the encrypted code in order for the engine to function. Many design-arounds flow from this one detail. Can't have anything too complicated or it will mess up - some DVD/Blu-ray schemes were so complicated that a normal (e.g., Sony, Panasonic, etc.) player couldn't play them back, resulting in irate customers. So can't have anything complicated or the engine won't work.

IMO, BMW is just shooting themselves in the foot doing things like this. On the sport compact side, many companies, like Subaru, are "tuner friendly" and so enthusiasts prefer to buy those cars because of the many mods that are available. Some of the local Honda dealers saw the mods and started selling third party mods to cash in. One dealer I talked to used to install a 3rd party supercharger in a brand new car (Civic Si) and sell it off the lot that way.