03-28-2017, 08:54 AM | #23 | |
Banned
202
Rep 621
Posts |
Quote:
Then tell me this. Why has the 991.2S been tested to be embarrass the M4 GTS despite the GTS having 80 more hp, 80 more torque and running Cup tires vs a summer street tire on the 991? Sorry but the evidence doesn't support one outlier of some clown who can't drive. Sport Auto 991.2S - 7:34 M4 GTS - 7:37 Hockenheim 991.2S - 1:09.6 M4 GTS - 1:09.6 Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca 991.2S - 1:36.44 M4 GTS - 1:37.66 Grand Tour - Eboladrome 991.2S - 1:21.4 M4 GTS - 1:22.4 M3 - 1:24.3 Again on the same tires as the M4 GTS the 991.2 S would be even faster. That goes on all times. The times as they are even at a tire disadvantage strongly favor the 911. Please explain the above given your initial post. I'd love to know why the best car M can make loses badly to a basic 911. Here's a test of the 991.2 base vs M3 by autocar 991.1 BASE - 1:32.47 M3 - 1:33.6 GTR - 1:32.47 Go look at times of the 991.1S it trounces the M3 and the 991.2S is in another ballgame altogether. I'll go one further. Here's a BASE 991.1 against an M4. The 991.1 base was 1.4 seconds faster on a sub 1:20 lap. And at Motown Mile, the results were the same, 991.1 base 1 second faster on a sub 1 min lap. I'll add yet another: MT Thunderhill Raceway 991.2 BASE (7MT) - 1:23.82 M3 Competition (DCT) 1:23.89 Just adding PDK (equal transmissions), the 911 would be at least 1-1.5 seconds faster, but again, even as is, the 911 was faster despite a huge deficit in power to weight and at the disadvantage of transmission type. Again, I encourage you to find data that proves otherwise. Last edited by Motorsportenterprise; 03-28-2017 at 09:38 AM.. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-28-2017, 08:57 AM | #24 | |
Banned
202
Rep 621
Posts |
Quote:
Explain to me why an M4 GTS which has 20% more power and torque AND on cup tires vs summer still can't touch a 991.2S? The thing is, if you stuck a dedicated tire in the 911 (keeping tires equal) the 911 will only be faster yet again. I've spoken to this point about REAL racing and it takes a race prepped M3/4 (IM or CM class) to keep up with a bone stock from the factory 911. To look at it fairly, you need to turn the m3 into a race car (losing all its qualities as a daily driven car) to make it perform like a 911. And at the end of the car you'll likely spend close to what a 911 costs. A base 991.2 is faster on track and in a straight than an M3/4 competition and doesn't cost much more. Last edited by Motorsportenterprise; 03-28-2017 at 10:05 AM.. |
|
Appreciate
1
Kimeran69.00 |
03-28-2017, 09:03 AM | #25 |
Banned
202
Rep 621
Posts |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-28-2017, 09:36 AM | #26 | |
Major
654
Rep 1,095
Posts |
Quote:
__________________
2016 M3 Alpine White / Sakhir Orange BM3 Stage 2 / AWE Exhaust (Non-Res) / VRSF Cat-less Downpipes / CG Precision Valve Control / AFE Drop In Filters / 20% 3M Tint / Blackvue DR650GW-2CH / Escort Redline (Blendmount) |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-28-2017, 09:40 AM | #27 |
Banned
202
Rep 621
Posts |
I don't particularly care about it barely losing in a straight. Again, I own BOTH cars, and it's a drivers race except on a circuit. It's not a driver's race anymore given the new turbo 911s where a base 991 is faster than an m3/4 competition (straight or lap times).
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-28-2017, 09:53 AM | #28 |
Enlisted Member
30
Rep 42
Posts |
So I am not allowed to cherry pick the way you have! and yes I have seen the comparison on the smaller track but clearly on a larger GP mainly this track the M4 CP is quicker.
As for the "he can't drive comment" Romain Monti currently races in the Blancpain Gt Series in an Audi R8 LMS and before was in Porsche Carrera Cup so actually I think he can drive especially the Porsche! You seem like I am having a go at the Porsche which I am not. Had a 997 GTS which I loved and no doubt will go back to one someday. It's seems you are getting yourself a bit worked up here....chill out! |
Appreciate
0
|
03-28-2017, 10:08 AM | #29 | |
Banned
202
Rep 621
Posts |
Quote:
Additionally, the 718S beat the M3 competition. I don't think that makes sense the 718S would beat the 991.2S either. I'd ideally put the lap times of the 718 and M3 close with the edge to the 718 but the 911 is much faster than both. Again, I showed you many different tracks and they prove the 991.2S is faster than an M4 GTS. The M4 GTS is faster than any other m3/4 so therefore the 991.2S as I have also proven is faster than any m3/4 version they can make. You still didn't offer up an explanation as to why an M4 GTS is slower in EVERY track test vs a basic Carrera S even though the GTS had a big advantage in tires, hp and torque. My thing is this. If you're going to make blanket statement you'd better have the data to back it up. You clearly don't given you can answer why a Carrera S beats an M4 GTS and all the other tests I've shown have even the old 991.1S and even base 991.1 beating the M3/4 in nearly every comparison there is out there. Last edited by Motorsportenterprise; 03-28-2017 at 10:37 AM.. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-28-2017, 10:36 AM | #30 | |
Enlisted Member
30
Rep 42
Posts |
Quote:
Personally I really don't care. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-29-2017, 06:45 PM | #31 | |
Colonel
1097
Rep 2,287
Posts |
Quote:
Porsche 911 Carrera (991) B6 350 ps (345 bhp) 390 Nm (288 lb-ft) 1400 kg (3086 lbs) 250 ps / tonne Picture of BMW M3 (F80) BMW M3 (F80) Twin Turbo Inline-6, 24v 431 ps (425 bhp) 550 Nm (406 lb-ft) 1589 kg (3503 lbs) 271 ps / tonne Lap Times 4 911 Carrera M3 Llandow 0:46.30 0:46.70 Bedford Autodrome West Circuit (post 06/2008) 1:23.60 1:23.27 Tsukuba 1:05.44 1:04.40 Hockenheim Short 1:13.10 1:13.10 Performance 911 Carrera M3 Top speed 293 kph (182 mph) 280 kph (174 mph) 0 - 80 kph 3.1 s 2.9 s 0 - 100 kph 4.3 s 4.1 s 0 - 200 kph 17.1 s 13.3 s 0 - 60 mph 4.2 s 3.8 s 0 - 100 mph 9.7 s 8.5 s 0 - 150 mph 26.0 s 20.8 s Est. 1/8 mile 8.3 s @ 92.6 mph 8.1 s @ 96.3 mph 1/4 mile 12.4 s @ 115.0 mph 12.0 s @ 119.3 mph 1000 m 22.5 s @ 236.0 kph 22.2 s @ 243.5 kph Est. 100 - 200 kph 12.8 s 9.2 s 70 mph - 0 47 m (153 ft) 46 m (150 ft) Summary 911 Carrera M3 Track Performance 394 397 Straight line speed 921 1187 Total 1315 1585 Verdict M3 is the fastest by a small margin. This comparison has been viewed 173 times. |
|
Appreciate
1
JBGD7.50 |
03-29-2017, 06:58 PM | #32 |
Colonel
1097
Rep 2,287
Posts |
991.1 base vs. M4 (non-ZCP). Once again, M4 being far cheaper and way more practical still faster on 4 out of 7 tracks and faster in acceleration...
Porsche 911 Carrera (991) B6 350 ps (345 bhp) 390 Nm (288 lb-ft) 1400 kg (3086 lbs) 250 ps / tonne Picture of BMW M4 BMW M4 Straight six, twin turbo 431 ps (425 bhp) 550 Nm (406 lb-ft) 1545 kg (3406 lbs) 279 ps / tonne Lap Times 7 911 Carrera M4 Vairano Handling Course 1:17.40 1:17.45 Nürburgring Nordschleife 8:02.00 7:52.00 Anglesey Coastal 1:17.80 1:19.20 Tsukuba 1:05.44 1:04.80 Hockenheim Short 1:13.10 1:12.60 Autocar Wet Handling Track 1:13.80 1:25.70 Autocar Dry Handling Track 1:14.20 1:12.50 Performance 911 Carrera M4 Top speed 293 kph (182 mph) 280 kph (174 mph) 0 - 80 kph 3.1 s 3.2 s 0 - 100 kph 4.3 s 4.0 s 0 - 180 kph 11.8 s 10.5 s 0 - 200 kph 17.1 s 12.9 s 0 - 60 mph 4.2 s 3.7 s 0 - 100 mph 9.7 s 8.5 s 0 - 150 mph 26.0 s 20.6 s Est. 1/8 mile 8.3 s @ 92.6 mph 8.1 s @ 95.7 mph 1/4 mile 12.4 s @ 115.0 mph 12.0 s @ 119.3 mph 1000 m 22.5 s @ 236.0 kph 21.8 s Est. 100 - 200 kph 12.8 s 9.5 s 70 mph - 0 47 m (153 ft) 46 m (150 ft) Summary 911 Carrera M4 Track Performance 682 658 Straight line speed 989 1276 Total 1671 1935 |
Appreciate
0
|
03-29-2017, 07:05 PM | #33 | |
Colonel
1097
Rep 2,287
Posts |
Quote:
Seriously - for the 500-billionth time - nobody doubts that Porsche makes a fantastic car - I've driven the 991.1 GT3 on the track several times and it's amazing. But Jesus - for the type of car and price it is - the current-gen M3/M4 are great accomplishments. I just think it's so strange that you constantly go out of your way to circle-jerk Porsche every chance you get... on a BMW forum nonetheless. You should really go onto a Porsche forum where you can converse with people with more similar vehicles than those here. Why are you even here anyway...???? |
|
Appreciate
1
Jaymax85711.00 |
03-30-2017, 11:50 AM | #34 | |
Banned
202
Rep 621
Posts |
Quote:
Interestingly enough, a base 991.2 and an M4 competition have power to weight of 8.7 and 8.1, respctively, yet the 991 is faster in straight and much faster on track. Porsche could easily drop a 4 door to put down much better performance than anything in the M3/4 segment (like they did the Panamera segment), and hopefully they do someday. Making a quick practical car is nothing special...again, the Panamera turbo puts down supercar times and plenty of practical cars and SUVs perform well. The laws of supply and demand seem to escape people around here. They're going to sell 80-100k M3/4 yet will only sell maybe one 911 for every 3 or 4 M3/4 sold. Wonder why it's more expensive still? Quality is another. Those things don't come cheap. BTW I've always had a passion for M products for being good overall cars. I just think my picture of them isn't so rosy I look beyond everything else. Last edited by Motorsportenterprise; 03-30-2017 at 12:04 PM.. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-30-2017, 06:28 PM | #35 | |
First Lieutenant
205
Rep 393
Posts |
Quote:
I actually find all of this M3/M4 versus 991 comparison hilarious. The debate usually comes down to lap times when the vast of majority of owners will never track their cars. And the fact that a $110-140k 991.2 can get around most tracks faster than a $70-80k M3/M4 should be expected given the price delta. Frankly, it should not be as close as it is. But who cares. I've owned both a 981 Cayman S and a 991.1 Carrera S. Great cars, but expensive and lacking in practicality for road use. I much prefer my M4. The fact that it has a usable back seat and a good sized trunk, yet has the performance capacity and refinement it does for the price are amazing in my view. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-30-2017, 07:12 PM | #36 | |
Banned
202
Rep 621
Posts |
Quote:
Like everyone else, I'm sure you'll deflect or more likely not even address the question but there's no denying that for the price the M4 GTS doesn't deliver (and it performs leagues better than any other M3/4). I HAVE both now, and the 991 is a far more dynamic car that really is an experience. My m4 is good for practicality, but being the fun driver's car the 911 is, it is not. Last edited by Motorsportenterprise; 03-30-2017 at 07:19 PM.. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-30-2017, 09:19 PM | #37 | |
First Lieutenant
205
Rep 393
Posts |
Quote:
The point is that the 991.2 is 25-50% more expensive than a non-GTS M4 (depending on base Carrera or S) and it should be faster around a track given it is a rather impractical sports car with several drawbacks that for some reason get ignored as the conversation always reverts back to lap times which for most of us are irrelevant. And why does such an overt Porsche advocate spend so much time on a BMW forum talking about how the 25%-50% more expensive car is so superior in his opinion? I find it comical. |
|
Appreciate
2
Powerslide1096.50 JBGD7.50 |
03-30-2017, 09:55 PM | #38 | |
Colonel
1097
Rep 2,287
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-30-2017, 10:07 PM | #39 | |
Colonel
1097
Rep 2,287
Posts |
Quote:
And for the M4GTS? Again - given its roots and inherent shortcomings as stated above - the fact that it does as well as it does is still impressive. How incredibly ignorant of you to actually think that the M4 GTS should match or exceed the newest or highest-performing 911s, which are a no-compromise, ground-up designed sports car with none of the shortcomings stated above. What do you have to say about the Corvette GS putting down laptimes equal to or better than 911 variants costing double or close to triple the amount? Does that make those 911's bad cars? Of course not. So please - at least make some attempt to compare apples-to-apples here instead of your continued, unsolicited apples-to-oranges, cherry-picked and self-serving "examples" here (better yet - if you love talking about Porsche nonstop, why wouldn't you do that on a Porsche forum)? My last question is the one that all of us have asked, and yet you have continually refused to answer it. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-31-2017, 03:26 AM | #40 |
First Lieutenant
286
Rep 317
Posts |
I think the fact that the M3/4 can even keep up (and in some cases even beat) the 911.2s on both straight line drag and track, is more than good enough !!
The Price and practicality of the ///M cars must also count in overall rating. Both are great cars ... but pound for pound (GBP not LBS) ... ///M FTW |
Appreciate
0
|
03-31-2017, 03:52 AM | #41 |
Private First Class
102
Rep 112
Posts |
Apart from Media and professional Racing Drivers, who put better times in the 991 in nearly every test:
I drove my first laps in the 991.1 4S on the ring. Just 4 laps, only randomly one laptime: 8:40 BTG on winter tyres. Far slower than professional or quick drivers. But after about 10 laps on uhp summer tyres in the M3, the best I could get was just below 8:55. So for me personally and my driving abilities, the 991 is immensely quicker. I am pretty sure I can get below 8:30 on summer tyres in the 911. Reasons for me: 1. Traction out of corners. I can go full throttle without any hesitation. The M3 often started to dance or cut the Throttle in MDM. 2. Generally PSM >>> MDM. The implementation of ESP is much better in the 991 than in the F80. To be really quick in the F80 you have to switch ESP off and play wirh the lack of traction on the limit. 3. PDK on Sport/Sport Plus is much better than DKG. Again you have to shift manually to be quick. I did that but didn't dare to switch off ESP completely on the Nordschleife. 4. Cornering feels quicker and lighter in the 911. Tyres overheat pretty quick in the F80. Second Lap was rubbish. 911 brakes and tyres more constant. Only first lap in F80 really fast. Regards RIP |
Appreciate
0
|
03-31-2017, 03:59 AM | #42 | |
Enlisted Member
30
Rep 42
Posts |
Quote:
This! OP is clearly a keyboard warrior and I don't believe he owns both cars. I am yet to find an owner of both who constantly puts down the M3/4 especially on a BMW Forum. He also forgot to mention that the GTS is 2.6 secs quicker around the Magny-Cours short circuit than the 991.2 S and his only come back was this Professional driver obviously can't drive! Once puberty kicks in, starts to shave and have to work to buy these cars he will realise that you take everything that these journalists say with a pinch of salt as there are so many variables. After all these are road cars and most don't track them anyway. I certainly wouldn't. More purposeful things for that. In the mean time he should keep saving the pocket money for the weekly bus trip to the local Porsche dealer where he can have his gratification and quote all the track times to the Salesmen. Otherwise I might have to tell his mammy he is trolling again! |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-31-2017, 07:22 AM | #43 | |
Banned
202
Rep 621
Posts |
Quote:
The GTS is also wearing CUP tires. The 991.2 wears summer tires. You clearly don't know the difference. Maybe you should actually make it out to the track one day and try seeing what the difference is. And the PTS color is dark olive metallic (looks black in low lighting and in the sun is reminiscent of an emerald) if you're wondering. And yes, it has ceramic brakes. Last edited by Motorsportenterprise; 03-31-2017 at 09:14 AM.. |
|
Appreciate
1
TommyGuk327.00 |
03-31-2017, 07:29 AM | #44 | |
Banned
202
Rep 621
Posts |
Quote:
Actually most of my friends drive M cars with a few exceptions except they don't drone on thinking it's some kind of worldly car. Unlike you I won't personally attack you because I actually use the cognitive portion of my brain and don't get bogged down in lower level thinking. Last edited by Motorsportenterprise; 03-31-2017 at 09:13 AM.. |
|
Appreciate
2
DieGrüneHölle1308.50 TommyGuk327.00 |
Post Reply |
Bookmarks |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|