Auto Bild M4 CS vs 911 GTS

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

In all fairness, BMW went turbo before the 911s did. Porsche also barely added any hp to the 991.2s (20 hp), but torque makes a big difference in acceleration, and now you're seeing the entry level 911s reap the rewards from a minor bump in power but a substantially beneficial increase in torque, and not to mention what is the best 3.0 liter and under turbo engine out there.

It is not only about the torque. Due to engine characteristics and power rating standards, you cannot compare the power ratings modern FI engines with NA engines.

The F8X only received a minor 11hp boost over the E9X, yet it completely trounces it acceleration wise. We are seeing the same thing with the 991.2 relative to the 991.1.

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

It is not only about the torque. Due to engine characteristics and power rating standards, you cannot compare the power ratings modern FI engines with NA engines.

The F8X only received a minor 11hp boost over the E9X, yet it completely trounces it acceleration wise. We are seeing the same thing with the 991.2 relative to the 991.1.

Yes, that's what I was saying.

To be accurate though, the M3/4 went up 110 lb-ft whereas the 911s only went up about 40 lb-ft.

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I think an interesting piece of info in this article is the lap time comparison between the M4 CP, CS and GTS:

GTS 1:33.17
CS 1:34.01 (+0.84)
CP: 1:36.89 (+2.88)

That's why in my other Sport Auto M4 CS thread, SA clearly was impressed with the CS.

Not as focused as the GTS, but clearly better than the standard M4, and has the making of a future classic.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Phatcat

That's why in my other Sport Auto M4 CS thread, SA clearly was impressed with the CS.

Not as focused as the GTS, but clearly better than the standard M4, and has the making of a future classic.

I have favour to ask , could you post the entire articles? I am fluent in German and would appreciate reading it .

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I have favour to ask , could you post the entire articles? I am fluent in German and would appreciate reading it .

Here is Auto Bild, let us know what it says!

[Captain Unknown GT4]

Ehh, I quote my selfe...guys...the M4 CS is far behind the M4 GTS, I dont know where you guys come from.

But where I come from they are apart like It should be. On hockenheim and sachenring M4 CS is behind and not to close like Porsche GTS vs GT3!

Did you not get the message, The 991.2 GTS and 991.2 GT3, now thats a close call. Hence the aero and the other bits did its thing on M4 GTS. But If the diff was that small like 991.2 GTS and 991.2 GT3 well I would agree with you guys.. If so ..It was nothing in It.

But the way I see it now Its big difference M4 CS vs M4 GTS. Its like BMW decide It to be. Porsche did wrong, GTS PORSCHE is to close to NEW GT3 Porsche. Just look on others cars on the list thats ap. 1 sec slower In this kind of track.

Come on, its like a close call 991 GT3, M4 GTS, MB GT-S, Ferrari 458 etc, these cars are a close call. But M4 CS is Not close to M4 GTS when its almost 1 second slower in the lap. Sure a few tenths ...then It would be close...but Its not like that.

Originally Posted by Captain Unknown GT4

Porsche made this 991.2 GTS a bit to fast:-). Its right up there GT3.2 fast. I am glad BMW keep M4 CS at a more normal distance behind the M4 GTS.

[Captain Unknown GT4]

To be fair M4 CS was on a to hot test on hockenhiem Hence I look at Auto Bild sachenring.
I am sure sport auto will on the otherhand put M4 CS ring time closer to M4 GTS than BMW did.

Due to M4 GTS was also having heat termal issue when sport auto did lap It at 7.37min as It was 30 degrees that test aswell.

Hence I would assume M4 CS will not also have this bad luck when set ring lap, thats why It will get closer to GTS.

All In the mix I often look at the whole picture, thats me anyway, Hence I also see BMW factory time as they always give the cars best possebilety to lap. They never go laps when hot, not on M4 CS not on M4 GTS. So its 7 seconds between them on ring factory lap. (the 2 cars lap god conditions)

I guess If M4 CS lap god cool conditions with sport auto on nur. It will be only 5 sec slower.

[stevehifi]

124k euros for the CS? has bmw lost it's mind?

the price for the GTS was laughable to begin with but this takes the cake...

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by Captain Unknown GT4

Ehh, I quote my selfe...guys...the M4 CS is far behind the M4 GTS, I dont know where you guys come from.

But where I come from they are apart like It should be. On hockenheim and sachenring M4 CS is behind and not to close like Porsche GTS vs GT3!

Did you not get the message, The 991.2 GTS and 991.2 GT3, now thats a close call. Hence the aero and the other bits did its thing on M4 GTS. But If the diff was that small like 991.2 GTS and 991.2 GT3 well I would agree with you guys.. If so ..It was nothing in It.

But the way I see it now Its big difference M4 CS vs M4 GTS. Its like BMW decide It to be. Porsche did wrong, GTS PORSCHE is to close to NEW GT3 Porsche. Just look on others cars on the list thats ap. 1 sec slower In this kind of track.

Come on, its like a close call 991 GT3, M4 GTS, MB GT-S, Ferrari 458 etc, these cars are a close call. But M4 CS is Not close to M4 GTS when its almost 1 second slower in the lap. Sure a few tenths ...then It would be close...but Its not like that.

I don't see how the new GT3 and .2 GTS are that close. By factory times, they are still 10 seconds apart on the same tires, and that is quite a lot of time. Even by Sport Auto times they're still a bit off. They are both very different flavors too. One could also argue the 991.2S is too close too if you put it on Cup tires given how fast it is on summer tires. It's also very hard to compare NA engines vs the turbo engines as CanAut and I were mentioning above. Still though, other than the Huracan, no one else is doing NA engines and Porsche continues to push how damn good NA engines are too. I'll be at the Atlanta track driving the new GT3 in August and can't wait to experience what a unparalleled masterpiece it is.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Captain Unknown GT4

Ehh, I quote my selfe...guys...the M4 CS is far behind the M4 GTS, I dont know where you guys come from.

But where I come from they are apart like It should be. On hockenheim and sachenring M4 CS is behind and not to close like Porsche GTS vs GT3!

Did you not get the message, The 991.2 GTS and 991.2 GT3, now thats a close call. Hence the aero and the other bits did its thing on M4 GTS. But If the diff was that small like 991.2 GTS and 991.2 GT3 well I would agree with you guys.. If so ..It was nothing in It.

But the way I see it now Its big difference M4 CS vs M4 GTS. Its like BMW decide It to be. Porsche did wrong, GTS PORSCHE is to close to NEW GT3 Porsche. Just look on others cars on the list thats ap. 1 sec slower In this kind of track.

Come on, its like a close call 991 GT3, M4 GTS, MB GT-S, Ferrari 458 etc, these cars are a close call. But M4 CS is Not close to M4 GTS when its almost 1 second slower in the lap. Sure a few tenths ...then It would be close...but Its not like that.

Not sure where you are coming from .

I don't believe that anyone ever assumed the CS would be as fast as the GTS around a track, given its 40hp deficit and less fancy suspension. But it is only a few tenths off the GTS' pace in this test, 8 tenths, not even a full second while it is 2.9 seconds faster than a M4CP. The 911GT3 is 3 tenths faster than the 911GTS. Not THAT different to the gap between the M4CS and M4GTS. You are splitting hairs.

However, the CS, with a mere 10hp and sticky r-comps, is able to bridge most of the gap (77% of it in this test) between the M4CP and M4GTS. Kinda proves the point many of have been making since day one, that most of the GTS' performance gains come from the tires. But in the end, it is not only about lap times, it is also about how a car feels and how well it is dialled in. According to the reviews thus far, BMW seem to have done a fairly good job with the CS.

[Wills2]

7.8 and 7.3 seconds for the 0-99mph sprint these cars are so quick.

I was in a friends 991.1 GTS last week what a machine, no quicker than my F80 but the noise/poise and general four square attitude of the car made me ache for one.

[Captain Unknown GT4]

Its better tuned chassie and braking and DSC and more...in CS vs CP Hence not only tires and them 10hp you mention. Also Its better aero In CS vs CP. CS give same downforce more or less like the GTS give in street aero setting. Wich is way better than CP.

Oh, its not tires but chassie, tires, power and aero that give the GTS Its pace. And a big part is chassie.

No, no one have said CS is GTS fast, agree. But some mention It like almost 1 sec off the GTS pace is like same ballpark in this short tracks. Its far from same ballpark.

A few tenths slower in the average short track 2.4km-3.7km well then cars are more or less same ballpark.

M4 CS seems like a great car anyway.

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Not sure where you are coming from .

I don't believe that anyone ever assumed the CS would be as fast as the GTS around a track, given its 40hp deficit and less fancy suspension. But it is only a few tenths off the GTS' pace in this test, 8 tenths, not even a full second while it is 2.9 seconds faster than a M4CP. The 911GT3 is 3 tenths faster than the 911GTS. Not THAT different to the gap between the M4CS and M4GTS. You are splitting hairs.

However, the CS, with a mere 10hp and sticky r-comps, is able to bridge most of the gap (77% of it in this test) between the M4CP and M4GTS. Kinda proves the point many of have been making since day one, that most of the GTS' performance gains come from the tires. But in the end, it is not only about lap times, it is also about how a car feels and how well it is dialled in. According to the reviews thus far, BMW seem to have done a fairly good job with the CS.

[Captain Unknown GT4]

I was refering to the auto bild test!

Same driver did put 991.2 GTS only a few 10:s off the pace he did in 991.2 GT3
And I was comparing that to the same auto bild driver when he made almost 1 seconds difference in M4 CS vs M4 GTS.

Hence, BMW did put M4 CS right where It shoud be, but Porsche got the 991.2 GTS to god and them GT3 owners dont like It

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

I don't see how the new GT3 and .2 GTS are that close. By factory times, they are still 10 seconds apart on the same tires, and that is quite a lot of time. Even by Sport Auto times they're still a bit off. They are both very different flavors too. One could also argue the 991.2S is too close too if you put it on Cup tires given how fast it is on summer tires. It's also very hard to compare NA engines vs the turbo engines as CanAut and I were mentioning above. Still though, other than the Huracan, no one else is doing NA engines and Porsche continues to push how damn good NA engines are too. I'll be at the Atlanta track driving the new GT3 in August and can't wait to experience what a unparalleled masterpiece it is.

[RaidersFan]

Originally Posted by Captain Unknown GT4

I was refering to the auto bild test!

Same driver did put 991.2 GTS only a few 10:s off the pace he did in 991.2 GT3
And I was comparing that to the same auto bild driver when he made almost 1 seconds difference in M4 CS vs M4 GTS.

Hence, BMW did put M4 CS right where It shoud be, but Porsche got the 991.2 GTS to god and them GT3 owners dont like It

Is that the new 991.2 GT3 tested? If not, then it isn't really apples to apples. The new .2 GT3 is a big step up: didn't it run 7:14 at the ring?

[minn19]

Originally Posted by stevehifi

124k euros for the CS? has bmw lost it's mind?

the price for the GTS was laughable to begin with but this takes the cake...

This, BMW is really starting to price themselves out of the value equation. Why would you buy a CS when for 25k more euro you can have a much better car in the Porsche GTS or Carrera S for that matter. If you can afford 124k you can or should certainly be able to afford 150. They are really depending on their loyal fan/customer base to the point I don't know how long it can last before people start looking around.

Unless options are an issue such as a loaded M4 CS vs a stripper GTS and a usable backseat, which the M4 CS wins........otherwise I really don't get it.

[Captain Unknown GT4]

There Is a god solid gap in the laptimes M4 CS vs M4 GTS. Thats very solid from BMW as Its the way It should be, all happy.

Then again Porsche hmm. Sport auto Is 1 tenths of a second slower in 911.2 GTS vs 991.2 GT3 on hockenheim. Mm, no GT3 owner like that guys ☺️

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Captain Unknown GT4

There Is a god solid gap in the laptimes M4 CS vs M4 GTS. Thats very solid from BMW as Its the way It should be, all happy.

Then again Porsche hmm. Sport auto Is 1 tenths of a second slower in 911.2 GTS vs 991.2 GT3 on hockenheim. Mm, no GT3 owner like that guys ☺️

I actually think that is where BMW failed.

Instead of making a CS and GTS, if BMW would have made a car that has the pace of the GTS on track but maintained DD practicality like the CS at the CS price point, they would have a true winner in their hands. It would be like a modern day E46 CSL and I am sure it would have received much warmer reviews from the press.

You keep repeating a weak argument about the gap between cars. In this test, there is 0.8 seconds between the M4 GTS and M4 CS while there is 0.3 seconds between the 991.1 GT3 and 991.2 GTS, not that different. Further, you're not comparing the same generations, just wait until we see the 991.2 GT3 lap time .

[CanAutM3]

Article is out on Auto Bild's website (Google translation below):

http://www.autobild.de/artikel/bmw-m...-12449783.html

This M4 clasps almost the 911er

M4 CS and 911 Carrera GTS embody the golden mean of their respective guilds, and still strive for far more than a mere mediocre.
Sometimes it really seems as if the gentlemen product struggles would be attacked by almost chronic defibrillation rage. In the search for ever-new shopping malls, they mix equipment features with performance levels, fill niches in the niche, and even head up even clear-lacquered edition models until the model structure finally bursts from all (leather) seams. The best example: the Porsche 911, which now has to split with all its body shapes in no less than 20 variants - the upcoming starlets GT2 RS and Turbo S Exclusive still not counted.

From the Porsche 911 there are now countless variants
The problem: the flood of elves leads not only to a barely transparent view of the supply jungle, it also softens the once clearly structured performance structure. The performance-enhanced, dynamically updated derailleur of the Carrera S, called GTS, is now also available on sports tires, which means that a further all-round feature of the GT series slides down the stream. In Munich, on the other hand, there is always sunshine. No wonder, the M4 lineup so far includes only three players: the standard M4, the associated competition model and the limited GTS. All clearly differentiated and positioned according to their respective roles. But now, too, there seems to be a certain tension in the house-salvation. In the form of the M4 CS, which is supposed to be the bridge between Competition-M4 and the former GTS, but purely conceptually drifts strongly towards the latter.

The CS is to link the M4 to the GTS
Arched carbon bonnet with central hot-air outlet, M-signed stainless steel rear muffler, plastic tailoring OLEDs, light-weight door panels with closing loops, stripped center console - already the cosmetics reminds strongly of the supposedly faster brother. However, the newly-placed forging wheels, which in comparison to the Competition-Alus not only take off nine kilos of rotating mass, but also the GTS-Semislicks at the same time, are dynamic. Without water injection, the CS has to do with "only" 460 hp, but the full 600 Newtonmeter very well. We remember: the competition is only pumping its 550th. And so the whole scenario at the end of the game feels quite similar to the GTS. Especially in the two sharper drive modes, when the biturbo snaps right over the right foot, gallig tear, razor high up and so masterfully veiled, that under 2000 tours actually only a rather lukewarm blows.

The distinct torque increase of 50 Newtonmeters is opposed by a rather modest performance increase of only 10 HP. The sergeant presses towards the center thus clearly more impulsively, must however in the tips for it however more to take back, in order not to shoot power through the ceiling. Up to 7600 tours you could turn it, up to a maximum of 6800 it makes sense. Somehow a pity, where rotational speed in the house M was long regarded as the holiest of all engine goods ...

When driving, the differences are clearly noticeable
The Porsche shows how it is better. It stays on Zack over 2000 tours, turns itself beyond its nominal power and continues to build its maximum 550 Newtonmeter not only similarly nimble, but at the same time also much more harmonious; The loading pressure can be dosed better, has a more beneficial effect, although not quite as exciting. Equal play on the gearbox: Both double couplers perform their sporting tasks in a grandiose way, responding fixedly, zaping accurately, and the gears always race along the rhythm of the road. Only the BMW beats the shafts so much to the mark, that one is in the fastest gearshift already around the rear axle bearings. In the Porsche, on the other hand, one can hardly feel more than a short, highly precise jolt from the change of gear. Clearly, the flair of the M4 CS törnt; More than that of his more civilized brothers and sisters and much more than that of the ingeniously perfect GTS. Only the proof of achievement at the end is the same as for study courses: The last of the mensaparty were never the first of the exam.

The Porsche weighs a good hundred kilos less, builds more slimly, thanks to the rear engine is unequaled in traction and, with its highly efficient launch control, also manages to play all these trumps freezing. 3.4 seconds to a hundred, 11.2 to two hundred - after all, the GT3 has thus just barely missed (10.6 seconds). The BMW, on the other hand, outclasses it by more than a second, although it also perfectly sets its traction with a 3.7 to 100 km / h and after his glamorous brother to two hundred just a tenth of a second behind.

Conclusion
In the end, it is a small sensation that the M4 CS is only one tenth of a point behind the Porsche. After all, he did not move here at all, but against the possibly best elf. The 911 GTS celebrates a dream-translating handling on the highest dynamic dynamics level on sport tires, the only flaw of which is the fact that it is almost too easy for the sole. If you do not mind, we recommend the best M4 ever.

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Article is out on Auto Bild's website (for those who wish to translate):

http://www.autobild.de/artikel/bmw-m...-12449783.html

911 GTS is one damn impressive car performance wise. Then again, an S would have performed close to the same. My guess, they should have compared it to a base 911 to make it "fair".

[ClothSeats]

Of course GTS is going to be close to GT3 now that it has twin turbos.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by ClothSeats

Of course GTS is going to be close to GT3 now that it has twin turbos.

...and R-compound tires (like in this test)

[Parabolica]

I'm quite surprised at the difference (~2.9 sec) between the M4 CS and M4 CP. I would have expected them to be closer. The CS only has a 10Hp advantage. 2.9 seconds is an eternity!!

Btw, that Porsche interior is stunning. Wish i had the dough.