Piston Heads: M3 ZCP vs Giulia QV vs C63 S

[Law]

Originally Posted by FC

Fixed.

People have awfully short memories around here
People tend to only remember the good memories when it comes to nostalgia and filter out the less pleasant memories, so they tend to group the early 2000s together.
But the early 2000s also saw the beginning of this.



Actually, the year (not years) everyone is thinking about 2001.
After 2001, the handsome E38 is replaced by the anus of Bangle.
Before 2001, you miss out on the E46 M3 and the S54.
2001 was the year where one could walk into a BMW dealership and find every single model in the lineup desirable.

From a M54 equipped 3er or 5er daily drivers, to a range-topping 750iL, to the agile, sharp M3, to the fastest family car in the world, the M5, to the Z3 (M or not) for weekend mountain carving, each BMW was fun and special and served its purpose.

3----Already the benchmark, the M54B30 is recently introduced in the 330i and the M3 had just entered production.

5----The E39 receives gorgeous facelift treatment and the M5 remains fastest saloon on the planet. *last manual / manual only M5 (depending where you live)*

7----The E38 is in its last phase of production, sees minor and final cosmetic changes (clear lenses, color-matched moldings). The 750iL featured in Tomorrow Never Dies is fresh in the minds of many. *last manual 7er*

Z3---The M coupe and M roadster receives S54 engine, coinciding with the start of production of the E46 M3.

X5---Controversial at first, but proved successful, redefined the segment and inspired other followers. Utilized E39 platform and drivetrain with 4x4 know-how learned from BMW's Rover acquisition. **only X5 available with manual trans.*

Z8---Halo-car of sorts, S62 motor & 6-speed from the M5, 507 inspired design, featured in The World Is Not Enough.



What we also took for granted then, was the abundance of NA engines and manual transmissions, which were available all across the board (incl. for the 7-series and X5). Oh and RWD too. How the mighty have fallen.

Now if you're talking about BMW M, then I'd say their streak continued until they did away with NA engines (but I'm also biased )

[KevinM]

Originally Posted by Law

People have awfully short memories around here
People tend to only remember the good memories when it comes to nostalgia and filter out the less pleasant memories, so they tend to group the early 2000s together.

Can't argue about 2001 (although my M5 is a MY 2002). To be more specific, I was actually referring to the E38, E39 and E46 platforms, which of course span the mid 1990s to early 2000s (as you note, 2001 for the E38).

[996ttelise]

Originally Posted by Jono2112

Well, you never hear the phrase, "Italian reliability" for a reason. You also don't here, "sexy German styling" either. Except in reference to Marlina Detricht, of course she was a U.S. citizen...

Sexy German.

[Jono2112]

Originally Posted by 996ttelise

Sexy German.

OK, that's definitely Marlina Detrcht territory!!

[Java99]

This is Alfa's first iteration and it feels rushed but drives better than comparable BMW. BMW should be worried. Alfa has better steering, sounds better, faster right out of the gate. Sure the interior is subpar and other headaches with the car but let's wait a year or 2 and revisit. 7 out of 10 reviews preferred the Alfa QV.

You want to talk reliability? How about s85v10 and s65v8 engines that grenaded due to rod bearings and upwards of $20k - $30k for new engine.
s65v8 litigation is still in court. Let's have some perspective here. I owned both. When they ran and had no issues, the s65 and s85 felt more engaging and had that passion and i dare say they were more italian than german.
That is what the Alfa is. A hot stripper that will date you and try to stab you in the guts at the same time if you keep your eye closed for a second

I've owned BMWs since after college but lets be real. BMW is not the most reliable car and let's not pretend it is. I am seriously looking at the Alfa but not first year. IF Alfa can come up with a car that is arguably better performance wise out of the box 1st iteration (you need ZCP to even get near Alfa QV) then what happens few years when they get it right..

[Golfgeek]

Originally Posted by domino_z

are there any reviews where an alfa doesn't shit itself

this is becoming hilarious, never seen an epic failure rate like this with a car before

Carwow loves it

[Tacoma]

Originally Posted by Java99

This is Alfa's first iteration and it feels rushed but drives better than comparable BMW. BMW should be worried. Alfa has better steering, sounds better, faster right out of the gate. Sure the interior is subpar and other headaches with the car but let's wait a year or 2 and revisit. 7 out of 10 reviews preferred the Alfa QV.

Not sure where you get 7/10 reviews preferred the QV but the latest tally in this thread (see post #18) has M3/4 ahead "6 wins vs 4 losses for M3/M4 vs Alfa."

If this was Lexus or Porsche, you can get away with saying this may be "first iteration" issues and "let's way a year or 2 and revisit." However, we are talking Italian quality which has historically been bad, so I don't really buy this "first iteration" excuse for poor quality.

Here's what Chris Harris said of the Alfa 4C in 2014:

"The exceptionally poor build quality means anything you might have to touch in the process of trying to control this impish little mischief-maker feels like it might fall off at any moment."

And 3 years later, reports are the 4C will be discontinued due to poor sales. Will the Gulia be different and buck the trend and suddenly have decent quality in a year or 2? Maybe, but most probably not. Certainly don't bet on it. There's no historical precedent for poor quality being only a first year thing for Alfa.

Originally Posted by Java99

You want to talk reliability? How about s85v10 and s65v8 engines that grenaded due to rod bearings and upwards of $20k - $30k for new engine.
s65v8 litigation is still in court. Let's have some perspective here. I owned both. When they ran and had no issues, the s65 and s85 felt more engaging and had that passion and i dare say they were more italian than german.
That is what the Alfa is. A hot stripper that will date you and try to stab you in the guts at the same time if you keep your eye closed for a second

I've owned BMWs since after college but lets be real. BMW is not the most reliable car and let's not pretend it is. I am seriously looking at the Alfa but not first year. IF Alfa can come up with a car that is arguably better performance wise out of the box 1st iteration (you need ZCP to even get near Alfa QV) then what happens few years when they get it right..

Yes, BMW isn't tops in build quality. It's no Lexus in this regard but in the latest 2016 US Initial Quality Study, BMW came in 5th place of ~33 brands. Fiat, another Italian brand, came in 2nd last just ahead of Smart cars.

So you can criticize (sometimes rightly) BMW as not always had good quality, but it's not been bad and nowhere near Alfa or Fiat bad. Not even close.

[996ttelise]

Originally Posted by Java99

This is Alfa's first iteration and it feels rushed but drives better than comparable BMW. BMW should be worried. Alfa has better steering, sounds better, faster right out of the gate. Sure the interior is subpar and other headaches with the car but let's wait a year or 2 and revisit. 7 out of 10 reviews preferred the Alfa QV.

You want to talk reliability? How about s85v10 and s65v8 engines that grenaded due to rod bearings and upwards of $20k - $30k for new engine.
s65v8 litigation is still in court. Let's have some perspective here. I owned both. When they ran and had no issues, the s65 and s85 felt more engaging and had that passion and i dare say they were more italian than german.
That is what the Alfa is. A hot stripper that will date you and try to stab you in the guts at the same time if you keep your eye closed for a second

I've owned BMWs since after college but lets be real. BMW is not the most reliable car and let's not pretend it is. I am seriously looking at the Alfa but not first year. IF Alfa can come up with a car that is arguably better performance wise out of the box 1st iteration (you need ZCP to even get near Alfa QV) then what happens few years when they get it right..

I dunno about any of this. I have spent a fair amount of time flogging QVs and I like the feel of the M3 ZCP better. The QV is a novelty item with R compounds that everyone wants to love, because . . . it is a novelty item with sticky R compounds. The F80 ZCP (no experience in non-ZCP), however, is simply an all around better car in every category and performance is essentially the same from a subjective seat of the pants feel.

The base models are apparently proving to be a disaster. Its not just the engine and no start seems to be a prevalent problem. I heard something like a 75% return for warranty work or issues at one location that just started selling them. Sadly, these things are proving to be a POS, but is that any wonder considering the parent company.

I have had a half dozen Ferraris and a couple of Lambos. All were fantastic cars. The Alfa feels more Detroit wanna be Italian on a lean budget to me.

[stevehifi]

talk about bad ROI, FCA must of spent a fortune on marketing (TV ads, billboard, magazine) to promote this car and it's turning out to be a flop. My guess is that they'll discontinue the model in the near future and then re-use the platform on another fiat-chrysler product. (see a trend here? .. dodge dart FAIL, chrysler 200 FAIL, alfa romeo guilia FUTURE FAIL...)

[clbmw]

Doesn't matter how much better the Alfa is in the odd interview. If it doesn't work it doesn't work. Fail.

Alfa may have superior springs, but so does my mattress. I'd still take the M3 and sleep on the floor.

[raysspl]

Hilarious