Is P-car the only logical next step?

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

That's the thing. On the street, these cars are not meant to be oversteering, blunt instruments cars like M3/4 and AMGs and many others are by comparison. They have limits much higher than those cars and their suspension tuning is on another level which doesn't make them crash and get flustered by broken pavement. They really do shine on the street IMO and on track the are mind blowingly good and that's where you'll see their true magic.
The buttons aren't really an issue. They all have a purpose and everything they do is intuitive unlike the convoluted labyrinth of things you often need to do in idrive or many of the other systems out there.
As far as pricing, that's always been how they're pricing worked and it's never stopped anyone. They are by and large custom cars and they cater to anything buyers want. That comes with a price. Well worth much more than what they charge for cars that perform, handle and are built with the quality they are if you ask me.
For me, I have similar feelings to the GT350, C7 and Zl1. The performance is there but I cannot get past the interiors and the flaws in quality (panel gaps, leather and paint quality, etc). At those price points it's not acceptable, especially when a 50k Boxster has an interior that is far nicer. Additionally, those cars (not driven a zl1) don't feel as connected and don't leave me wanting to drive them after a short time like a Porsche does.

This is with absolutely no offense to anyone, but a lot of manufacturers are getting more and more capable, but they are dialing out the fun and the feel on the street. And I don't mean tail out on every corner kind of fun. When I drove (multiple times/they are very cool at that dealer props to them) the 911 Carrera S at my local dealer I was 100% percent sure I was going to walk back in and order a 911 the way I liked. I couldn't have been more underwhelmed with the test drives They said the same things you have so I drove it multiple times and came away with the same conclusion.

My GT350 has mismatched panels and the interior has a couple of rattles/is cheap looking, but it puts a massive smile on my face just rowing the gears and listening to the engine (even under 4000 RPM etc) going to get coffee. I didn't get that with my DCT M4 and I certainly didn't get that with any Porsche I've driven. I'm not trying to troll, but warts and all I'll take other cars for over 1/2 the price that I enjoy more. Which is what it is all about.

I realize the buttons all have a function. But, I still find it a cluttered mess and give BMW props with iDrive and other things. They are the ergonomic champs and it isn't even close IMO. Even my GT350 has everything I need on a couple of buttons on the steering wheel. Much easier and less cluttered so I can bask in my plastic interior.

I also get they are highly customizable cars, but like many German manufacturers they know how to build in profit and capitalize on their name. I and many others call it a ripoff and it does get very annoying. It has stopped plenty of people from buying them. Will they go out of business tomorrow, of course not. But charging you for $50 or $100 or whatever for wheel caps is at best and blatant profit taking at worst.

Even though many of us have the money it doesn't mean we don't want value for it. In a 95% DD to 5% track ratio I would still choose and an M4 comp pack (I'd instantly change the wheels ) over a 911 Carrera S for the money. Like I've said, they are awesome cars, but they aren't for everyone.

Edit: I would 100% disagree about the connected to the road comment. I found the 911 very numb compared to my GT350 on the road. Also, I found nothing special about a base Boxster interior. Not as bad as my car, but definitely not special. Different cars for different tastes and wants/needs.

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by minn19

This is with absolutely no offense to anyone, but a lot of manufacturers are getting more and more capable, but they are dialing out the fun and the feel on the street. And I don't mean tail out on every corner kind of fun. When I drove (multiple times/they are very cool at that dealer props to them) the 911 Carrera S at my local dealer I was 100% percent sure I was going to walk back in and order a 911 the way I liked. I couldn't have been more underwhelmed with the test drives They said the same things you have so I drove it multiple times and came away with the same conclusion.

My GT350 has mismatched panels and the interior has a couple of rattles/is cheap looking, but it puts a massive smile on my face just rowing the gears and listening to the engine (even under 4000 RPM etc) going to get coffee. I didn't get that with my DCT M4 and I certainly didn't get that with any Porsche I've driven. I'm not trying to troll, but warts and all I'll take other cars for over 1/2 the price that I enjoy more. Which is what it is all about.

I realize the buttons all have a function. But, I still find it a cluttered mess and give BMW props with iDrive and other things. They are the ergonomic champs and it isn't even close IMO. Even my GT350 has everything I need on a couple of buttons on the steering wheel. Much easier and less cluttered so I can bask in my plastic interior.

I also get they are highly customizable cars, but like many German manufacturers they know how to build in profit and capitalize on their name. I and many others call it a ripoff and it does get very annoying. It has stopped plenty of people from buying them. Will they go out of business tomorrow, of course not. But charging you for $50 or $100 or whatever for wheel caps is at best and blatant profit taking at worst.

Even though many of us have the money it doesn't mean we don't want value for it. In a 95% DD to 5% track ratio I would still choose and an M4 comp pack (I'd instantly change the wheels ) over a 911 Carrera S for the money. Like I've said, they are awesome cars, but they aren't for everyone.

Edit: I would 100% disagree about the connected to the road comment. I found the 911 very numb compared to my GT350 on the road. Also, I found nothing special about a base Boxster interior. Not as bad as my car, but definitely not special. Different cars for different tastes and wants/needs.

Certainly disagree on connected as I find everything in the 911 to be where I'd went and set up ideally. Steering, clutch, gearbox, throws, seating position, pedal position. Do remember, the 911s short of GTx cars are touring cars and just happen to lay down very fast lap times. Meant to be a bit quieter but they still have some of the best damn steering and IMO their electric is better than most anyone's hydraulic except their own.
I drove the GT350 and other than sounding nice, did very little for me. Also didn't feel that fast for well over 500 hp but I guess you get spoiled by how fast Porsches are given their low hp ratings.
Have you driven the turbo 911s? Those cars are like mini 911 turbos and they certainly deliver. I still prefer NA power best but those turbo motors are really quite something and the results speak for themselves, as well as the International engine of the year awards where nothing in the 3.0 category even gave it a run for its money.
I have never quite been able to gel with my M4 in almost any aspect and don't really think after driving the comp pack car that it made meaningful strides in the areas I would hope for, but maybe in a few more years the next gen will be where an 80-95k car should be as far as engineering. Shame given how they went all out. The new Alfa was quite impressive though for its first iteration.
May have gone off tenge totally there.
I do agree on the colored center caps and some of the small Porsche items. Once you get into that leve of the market and above, you can certainly say they aren't for everyone, but, they aren't meant to be. Porsche needs no help in continuing to knock everything out of the park and I hope they do come to market with a small sedan to take over that segment too.

Overall, sounds like we are stuck in similar arguement of what watch do you wear. I mean, I don't need to wear an Audemars Piguet when a $100 Casio will tell time just as well, but what is behind them couldn't be any different.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

Certainly disagree on connected as I find everything in the 911 to be where I'd went and set up ideally. Steering, clutch, gearbox, throws, seating position, pedal position. Do remember, the 911s short of GTx cars are touring cars and just happen to lay down very fast lap times. Meant to be a bit quieter but they still have some of the best damn steering and IMO their electric is better than most anyone's hydraulic except their own.
I drove the GT350 and other than sounding nice, did very little for me. Also didn't feel that fast for well over 500 hp but I guess you get spoiled by how fast Porsches are given their low hp ratings.
Have you driven the turbo 911s? Those cars are like mini 911 turbos and they certainly deliver. I still prefer NA power best but those turbo motors are really quite something and the results speak for themselves, as well as the International engine of the year awards where nothing in the 3.0 category even gave it a run for its money.
I have never quite been able to gel with my M4 in almost any aspect and don't really think after driving the comp pack car that it made meaningful strides in the areas I would hope for, but maybe in a few more years the next gen will be where an 80-95k car should be as far as engineering. Shame given how they went all out. The new Alfa was quite impressive though for its first iteration.
May have gone off tenge totally there.
I do agree on the colored center caps and some of the small Porsche items. Once you get into that leve of the market and above, you can certainly say they aren't for everyone, but, they aren't meant to be. Porsche needs no help in continuing to knock everything out of the park and I hope they do come to market with a small sedan to take over that segment too.

Overall, sounds like we are stuck in similar arguement of what watch do you wear. I mean, I don't need to wear an Audemars Piguet when a $100 Casio will tell time just as well, but what is behind them couldn't be any different.

Yah, I drove a 17 911s so it was the newer Turbo version. The power definitely wasn't lacking.

I would love for Porsche to make an M2 sized coupe with 4 seats and a M3 size sedan. It would be cool to see what they could do with it.

The GT350 really doesn't get going until over 3700 RPM. It isn't the fastest thing in a straight line and will get smoked by many other cars in a straight up acceleration contest. When it is in the power band which is huge it can hold its own. I love it for the complete driving experience and on the track it is a ton of fun when you get to wind it out. But, I get if you love the way Porsche does things that you aren't going to like the GT350. Basically the opposite of me.

Any way, thanks for the good (civil) discussion.

[tareemaa]

Originally Posted by Dethsupp0rt

I went outside the box, and am happy with my decision thus far.

What did you go with?

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by minn19

Yah, I drove a 17 911s so it was the newer Turbo version. The power definitely wasn't lacking.

I would love for Porsche to make an M2 sized coupe with 4 seats and a M3 size sedan. It would be cool to see what they could do with it.

The GT350 really doesn't get going until over 3700 RPM. It isn't the fastest thing in a straight line and will get smoked by many other cars in a straight up acceleration contest. When it is in the power band which is huge it can hold its own. I love it for the complete driving experience and on the track it is a ton of fun when you get to wind it out. But, I get if you love the way Porsche does things that you aren't going to like the GT350. Basically the opposite of me.

Any way, thanks for the good (civil) discussion.

I think in time you will. It will blow away everything in the segment but you'll pay a bit of a premium for a premium product.
I get how you feel though. That's how I feel about the Porsche's on track...super fun and super capabale and can do it all day without issue and then drive home as if you didn't even touch it.
I have a lot of admiration for these cars (GT350, z06, etc) but European cars will never be the best bang for your buck but it's something you either can accept for the multitude of others things they do so much better or you can't.
My advice, drive one on track, and you'll never want to drive anything else (at least that's how I felt). If you like NA, I love my 991.1S. It never fails to thrill in any facet and sounds scintillatingly good.
It's not that I don't like the GT350, it's a hell of a car for the price, looks great outside and sounds good but going back, once you've gotten to push a 911, Box/Cay, everything these just seems boring by comparison. In something like a GT3, that just multiplies the impact and capabilities.
Certainly good chatting with you. If you're able, check out the Porsche driving school in Atlanta or Cali. You can do a GT3 and an easy way to open your eyes to them, and a hell of a lot of fun! Just don't blame me if your wallet gets lighter after.

[k-lo]

I've done this. Used to have an E92 M, jumped to a 997TT, loved every second of it except some few things:

Unless you have plenty of dough to buy the newest greatest P-car your P-car technology is at least 7 years behind the Bimmer.

Out of warranty repairs are like passing a kidney stones. Best advice: get a P-car with warranty nuf said.

Maintenance - 2.5X the cost.

Aftermarket support is lower = $$$$. Harder to install parts = $$$$


Ask me if I would do it again? Hell yea!

[Dethsupp0rt]

Originally Posted by tareemaa

What did you go with?

I went with a ZL1. It's not perfect, but it's great bang for the buck. Much improved over the last gen.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

A test drive is almost any car, let alone one with limits as high as a Porsche, is not going to show you what they're really about. I guess I have the opposite type of feeling. Most anything else I drive outside a 911 or Porsche car just feel a bit underwhelming and never can quite deliver an experience that a 911, Boxster/Cayman can.
Take one on the track sometime if you can...it will certainly flip your world and you'll be more aligned to the latter of my first paragraph.

thats such a biased perspective. Lol.

Then again, it's you posting.

[valeram]

Yes for me. I went to 991.1 GTS from E92 M3. Hoping to get the next 991.2 GT3 allocation.

[shiv.nandak]

If having a practical car isn't important, i would say give the C7 Z06 a try. The interior has come a long way - you might like it.

i was originally looking into getting a Carrera S. I am very happy with my decision to get the Z06 instead. I once drove my friends aventador and the Z06 kinda reminds me of that car for some reason. Probably because of the digital dash, amazing exhaust note, tight cabin etc. Only thing i miss are the back seats and limited tire choices for winter driving.

[rosenbergendo]

ZL1 1LE>gt350 and even probably future GT500.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by csbear

Also, I felt the GT4 was underpowered. Especially in its long-geared manual form. But still a great car which needs to be on a track to really enjoy... The ZL1 will at least pull like a monster on regular roads in comparison.

Completely agree here - my 981 CS was 60 BHP down on the GT4, and I always felt like it needed more oomph.

If you want the best Porsche can do, you have to go 911. The Cayman has been neutered on purpose...

[ilya335]

My father went from BMW to Porsche (Macan Turbo) and has had nothing but issues. PCM restarting, driveshaft replaced, second key not working, trunk not opening.

Technology wise, the car is a generation or two behind BMW. Rear backup camera resolution is a joke.

Driving wise, the car is great but can be better. For the $ premium though, it's been too much of a headache.

Of course this could just be a case of bad luck, but for the money I expected better.

[gtr]

Originally Posted by ilya335

My father went from BMW to Porsche (Macan Turbo) and has had nothing but issues. PCM restarting, driveshaft replaced, second key not working, trunk not opening.

Technology wise, the car is a generation or two behind BMW. Rear backup camera resolution is a joke.

Driving wise, the car is great but can be better. For the $ premium though, it's been too much of a headache.

Of course this could just be a case of bad luck, but for the money I expected better.

He must have the older PCM my Macan GTS has super high and clear resolution and I'd say looks better than my 2017 M2.

The newer I drive is the best though.

[996ttelise]

Originally Posted by ilya335

My father went from BMW to Porsche (Macan Turbo) and has had nothing but issues. PCM restarting, driveshaft replaced, second key not working, trunk not opening.

Technology wise, the car is a generation or two behind BMW. Rear backup camera resolution is a joke.

Driving wise, the car is great but can be better. For the $ premium though, it's been too much of a headache.

Of course this could just be a case of bad luck, but for the money I expected better.

Wife has 16 Macan, 17 is better, and I don't see how it is behind my 17 F80 technology wise. Yeah, the back up camera is not as clear but who frickin cares about resolution on a backup camera. No issues in 14 months and seems like in general the Macan have been pretty solid.

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by ilya335

My father went from BMW to Porsche (Macan Turbo) and has had nothing but issues. PCM restarting, driveshaft replaced, second key not working, trunk not opening.

Technology wise, the car is a generation or two behind BMW. Rear backup camera resolution is a joke.

Driving wise, the car is great but can be better. For the $ premium though, it's been too much of a headache.

Of course this could just be a case of bad luck, but for the money I expected better.

Not sure how it's a generation behind. The new 17 system is wonderful and easier to use than idrive IMO.

I've had Cayennes and have several friends who bought Macans after they had quality issues with their M3/4s and have not had any issues whatsoever in their Porsches. My M4 is no beacon of quality (had issues from very early on and dealer cant fix) whereas my 991.1S couldn't be better.

Overall BmW quality fit and finish and reliability and dependability hasn't come close to Porsche over the last 15 years running.

Bmw is definitely a generation or two behind on suspension, transmission, and overall driving dynamics though

[ilya335]

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

Not sure how it's a generation behind. The new 17 system is wonderful and easier to use than idrive IMO.

I've had Cayennes and have several friends who bought Macans after they had quality issues with their M3/4s and have not had any issues whatsoever in their Porsches. My M4 is no beacon of quality (had issues from very early on and dealer cant fix) whereas my 991.1S couldn't be better.

Overall BmW quality fit and finish and reliability and dependability hasn't come close to Porsche over the last 15 years running.

Bmw is definitely a generation or two behind on suspension, transmission, and overall driving dynamics though

Different experiences for everyone. This one was a 2016 and has been nothing but problems. Panels rattling due to the overly bassy Bose system.

Agreed that the you def get the upgrade on the mechanics. This thing has the best brakes I've ever had.

[ilya335]

Originally Posted by 996ttelise

Wife has 16 Macan, 17 is better, and I don't see how it is behind my 17 F80 technology wise. Yeah, the back up camera is not as clear but who frickin cares about resolution on a backup camera. No issues in 14 months and seems like in general the Macan have been pretty solid.

This one is a 2016. Seems like the 17 got some upgrades.

One big gripe I have is when using different keys, you cannot have different radio presets. Also many other settings cannot get saved to the individual keys. Maybe this changed on 2017?

The other is that the PCM will always have the volume on when you turn the car off/on despite setting it on mute. Maybe they changed this on the 17 as well?

Just my experiences. The car has been to the dealer 3 times for the PCM issue and they have updated/replaced the whole system but the issue persists.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

Not sure how it's a generation behind. The new 17 system is wonderful and easier to use than idrive IMO.

I've had Cayennes and have several friends who bought Macans after they had quality issues with their M3/4s and have not had any issues whatsoever in their Porsches. My M4 is no beacon of quality (had issues from very early on and dealer cant fix) whereas my 991.1S couldn't be better.

Overall BmW quality fit and finish and reliability and dependability hasn't come close to Porsche over the last 15 years running.

Bmw is definitely a generation or two behind on suspension, transmission, and overall driving dynamics though

Dude your Porsche fanboyism is beyond this universe. I've seen many mention it and they are spot on.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

Completely agree here - my 981 CS was 60 BHP down on the GT4, and I always felt like it needed more oomph.

If you want the best Porsche can do, you have to go 911. The Cayman has been neutered on purpose...

I'm not 100% clear on this. My 996TT is modded and has (a lot) more power than my brother's GT4, but I would pick the GT4 as a track toy.

[996ttelise]

Originally Posted by ilya335

This one is a 2016. Seems like the 17 got some upgrades.

One big gripe I have is when using different keys, you cannot have different radio presets. Also many other settings cannot get saved to the individual keys. Maybe this changed on 2017?

The other is that the PCM will always have the volume on when you turn the car off/on despite setting it on mute. Maybe they changed this on the 17 as well?

Just my experiences. The car has been to the dealer 3 times for the PCM issue and they have updated/replaced the whole system but the issue persists.

Lol, you and I are on completely different ends of the spectrum when it comes to what is important in a car. I don't even program my seat memory . . . and could give a shyte less about mute or key programing having different radio pre-sets. What is the world come to when it is too difficult to switch stations and why in the world is mute when turning car and off? Never tried or even thought of trying any of the above on any of my Porsches ever.

[996ttelise]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

I'm not 100% clear on this. My 996TT is modded and has (a lot) more power than my brother's GT4, but I would pick the GT4 as a track toy.

Yep, everyone focuses these days on hp and acceleration because that is easy to create and market. The absolute funnest track toys I have ever owned were all low hp momentum cars even more so than my challenge and cup cars.