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      05-25-2014, 07:51 AM   #89
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Given that this is the 'eco friendly' M3 I guess we are all about peace, love and dope, huh? Groovy man. Like far out.
Wow, I hadn't realized that I'm now finally going all in with my CD collection! Groovy!
Yup, pull out your Doors and Jefferson Airplane LP's and peace out, man.
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      05-25-2014, 08:05 AM   #90
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      05-25-2014, 08:12 AM   #91
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Great post and a freshening perspective for once. I was lead to believe the e90 was always the perfectionist, interesting to see that it had similar backlash from journalists when it first came out. The king is dead, long live blah blah blah...
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      05-25-2014, 10:04 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by dawgdog View Post
I am on an allocation list and really looking forward to this new M-car. Loved my e46M3, really loved my e92 M3 as I modded it and had it on the track at least 60 days. Now I am having another experience on track with a Porsche which I also love. But I need a fun car to drive daily and any car I buy I want to be able to take to the track occasionally and have fun with it. The idea of a good fuel range for road trips and torque for everyday fun really appeals to me. I remember when I had the e46M3 and was not yet into tracking yet I came to the conclusion that the only time I really got to enjoy the engines performance was on freeway onramps.

The reviews on the e92 when it first came out were not all positive. This situation is no different. Will test drive soon and make my final decision but I suspect I will own this car and love it. Can't see anything else in this price range that comes close in terms of performance and everyday practicality.
Hey, which dealership's waiting list are you on? what is your production week? Come join us on the regional Northwest sub forum.
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      05-25-2014, 01:38 PM   #93
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Hey, which dealership's waiting list are you on? what is your production week? Come join us on the regional Northwest sub forum.
BMW Seattle. Did it over the phone so have no idea of build date. Not in a hurry but hope within 4-6 months.
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      05-27-2014, 11:01 AM   #94
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It had a similar reaction because they made the E90 too heavy, too bloated, too soft. It was a drastic departure from the M3 which was already getting heavy. The cars are so soft now that it makes the E90 look like a sports car! You could get an M3 with manual seats, no idrive, very simple and you can't get that in the M3. So BMW has lowered the bar so low now that even I like the E90 now. There are few no option manual cars out there that are very appealing with NA motors.

What made BMW great was that they did things differently. Their motorcycles became famous because they threw aircraft engineers at designing a motorcycle. That was different than the other companies. Their cars were made to deal with the autobahns that Germany built. They had to have better high speed handling and driving dynamics than American cars but now they are chasing the Japanese competing on gadgets in the cockpit and fluff. In the past they would offer a choice, but no longer so for some of us that don't want iDrive and fake sound forced up on us, the sky is not falling but it's not looking as sunny.
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      05-27-2014, 11:37 AM   #95
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It had a similar reaction because they made the E90 too heavy, too bloated, too soft. It was a drastic departure from the M3 which was already getting heavy. The cars are so soft now that it makes the E90 look like a sports car! You could get an M3 with manual seats, no idrive, very simple and you can't get that in the M3. So BMW has lowered the bar so low now that even I like the E90 now. There are few no option manual cars out there that are very appealing with NA motors.

What made BMW great was that they did things differently. Their motorcycles became famous because they threw aircraft engineers at designing a motorcycle. That was different than the other companies. Their cars were made to deal with the autobahns that Germany built. They had to have better high speed handling and driving dynamics than American cars but now they are chasing the Japanese competing on gadgets in the cockpit and fluff. In the past they would offer a choice, but no longer so for some of us that don't want iDrive and fake sound forced up on us, the sky is not falling but it's not looking as sunny.
Analog v Digital. It remains one of the great debates of our times.

Do records sound great on LP? Sure. Does that mean digital music is bad or worse? No. Different? Sure.

I believe part of this debate flows from the power of nostalgia and the 'first great experience' we had imprinted on our brains (a point I made here: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...a#post15955279)

The other thing is just dollars and cents. BMW (even M) is in the business to sell cars. In 2014, people want some fancy do-hickeys in the car (sat nav, connection with iPhone, etc). Especially if they are paying big dollars for it. The market for a stipper is (relatively) small so the people who want performance and gadgets are going to win.

The new W205 C63 is going to be just as fancy inside (as will the RS4, etc).
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      05-27-2014, 11:39 AM   #96
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Good post!!!

Great to see some perspective and thanks for digging up some of the reviews on the E9x. As great as the E9x was, there are to many that just posted "the E9x allways beat the competition" / "always got great reviews" etc...

Interestingly we haven't seen any of those post on this thread so far
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      05-27-2014, 11:43 AM   #97
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Good post!!!

Great to see some perspective and thanks for digging up some of the reviews on the E9x. As great as the E9x was, there are to many that just posted "the E9x allways beat the competition" / "always got great reviews" etc...

Interestingly we haven't seen any of those post on this thread so far
Thanks and, yeah, it seems that actual facts make it harder for the trolls to do their work.....
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      05-27-2014, 11:44 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Good post!!!

Great to see some perspective and thanks for digging up some of the reviews on the E9x. As great as the E9x was, there are to many that just posted "the E9x allways beat the competition" / "always got great reviews" etc...

Interestingly we haven't seen any of those post on this thread so far
Well, if someone posted those, we might have the perspective needed for this, and what would we fight about then?

I don't know if it's just me, but after mr Canada Peace Core posted this, it seems like we all are trying to use nicer language. That alone is a great thing to this forum, since it was really getting to a battle scene with the proportions of my family Christmas dinner.

mr CPC did a favor to all, even if Greg from Oregon started to go braless because of this. I don't mind, I just saw him always in a different way.
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      05-27-2014, 12:01 PM   #99
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If you want perspective, here's something to add posted by Jason in February 2008.
It's also something for the apologists whining about the F82 being compared to the 991S.

The E92 is compared to the 911 Turbo, the Nissan GT-R and the Audi R8.
Pretty unfair huh? Well it gets a 2nd place and overall best motor and track entertainment...
This is what BMW has spoilt us with in the past so fair or not the expectations on an M3 is high.

Personally I find this notion that 'it's happened before so it's ok" to be, well pathetic to be honest.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122409

Last edited by solstice; 05-27-2014 at 12:06 PM..
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      05-27-2014, 12:06 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachob View Post
It had a similar reaction because they made the E90 too heavy, too bloated, too soft. It was a drastic departure from the M3 which was already getting heavy. The cars are so soft now that it makes the E90 look like a sports car! You could get an M3 with manual seats, no idrive, very simple and you can't get that in the M3. So BMW has lowered the bar so low now that even I like the E90 now. There are few no option manual cars out there that are very appealing with NA motors.

What made BMW great was that they did things differently. Their motorcycles became famous because they threw aircraft engineers at designing a motorcycle. That was different than the other companies. Their cars were made to deal with the autobahns that Germany built. They had to have better high speed handling and driving dynamics than American cars but now they are chasing the Japanese competing on gadgets in the cockpit and fluff. In the past they would offer a choice, but no longer so for some of us that don't want iDrive and fake sound forced up on us, the sky is not falling but it's not looking as sunny.
BMW has always been a luxury brand. It's their niche. It's ridiculous to be comparing the fixturing of their cars of yore to cars of today without realizing that those cars were also the luxury cars of their day and came equipped with the latest gadgets and hoity toity fluff. There is no way in hell that they could sell cars at this price point without luxury features and the latest technology. And putting Spartan cars out there with rental car trim would poison the entire brand. If you truly are a hard-core baller that does not care a fig about extravagance and gadgets, there are fantastic cars out there just for you like the new Z28 or the Ariel Atom.
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      05-27-2014, 12:12 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Lups View Post
Well, if someone posted those, we might have the perspective needed for this, and what would we fight about then?

I don't know if it's just me, but after mr Canada Peace Core posted this, it seems like we all are trying to use nicer language. That alone is a great thing to this forum, since it was really getting to a battle scene with the proportions of my family Christmas dinner.

mr CPC did a favor to all, even if Greg from Oregon started to go braless because of this. I don't mind, I just saw him always in a different way.
I take no credit for the decision of anyone to wear bras or not.

....and let this be known, this would be the first time one in my profession has ever been called a peace maker anything. If this is my legacy, I am sure I have let someone down somewhere.....
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      05-27-2014, 12:14 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by myzmak View Post
I take no credit for the decision of anyone to wear bras or not.

....and let this be known, this would be the first time one in my profession has ever been called a peace maker anything. If this is my legacy, I am sure I have let someone down somewhere.....
I was called nice recently, so shit happens and wrong image is produced.
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      05-27-2014, 12:26 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
If you want perspective, here's something to add posted by Jason in February 2008.
It's also something for the apologists whining about the F82 being compared to the 991S.

The E92 is compared to the 911 Turbo, the Nissan GT-R and the Audi R8.
Pretty unfair huh? Well it gets a 2nd place and overall best motor and track entertainment...
This is what BMW has spoilt us with in the past so fair or not the expectations on an M3 is high.

Personally I find this notion that 'it's happened before so it's ok" to be, well pathetic to be honest.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122409
Whoooooaaaah.

Easy there....I think you are missing my point a bit.

Nobody is saying "its happened before so it is ok". At least that is not what I am saying. I am saying this angst happened before at the same point and it turned out fine. So before people condemn the new car based only on first drive reviews, lets get some time and history behind us because right now lots of folks are doing just that without anyone here having actually driven the car. Until then, we are just as guilty as those who thought the sky was falling when those E90 reviews came out (which many did).

Thanks for that find on the E90 comparison. Excellent read. I think it actually makes my point in a couple of different ways, though.

First, note that it actually lost that comparison to the GT-R. Interestingly, though it beat the GTR in other comparos, including by C&D - http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mparison-tests)

Why?

As I was saying on a different thread this morning, a lot of the head to head testing depends on what the review wants.

So thinking about the 911 vs M3 rage that is out there in these threads now, C&D preferred the last E90 because, in large part, it was a better all around car than a 911. Car magazine preferred the 911 S in its recent review because it was a better pure sports car than the F80.

Going back to your article, that is the very point made in the "Verdict": it notes that the M3 lost to the R8 in the 2007 "performance car" listings but won on that comparison because it was focussed on "all around versatility".

Or: perspective matters. (I would say it is indispensible).

At the end of the day (as I said at the end of the original post....which was long, so no worries if everyone didnt make it all the way through to the end...or if they fell asleep before finishing, had to take it chunks, etc) is that the F80 will likely lose head to heads because other car companies are producing much better cars. That is a good thing, no? Put another way, for car lovers, how could it possibly be bad?
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      05-27-2014, 12:36 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myzmak View Post
Whoooooaaaah.

Thanks for that find on the E90 comparison. Excellent read. I think it actually makes my point in a couple of different ways, though.

First, note that it actually lost that comparison to the GT-R. Interestingly, though it beat the GTR in other comparos, including by C&D - http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mparison-tests)

Why?

As I was saying on a different thread this morning, a lot of the head to head testing depends on what the review wants.

So thinking about the 911 vs M3 rage that is out there in these threads now, C&D preferred the last E90 because, in large part, it was a better all around car than a 911. Car magazine preferred the 911 S in its recent review because it was a better pure sports car than the F80.

Going back to your article, that is the very point made in the "Verdict": it notes that the M3 lost to the R8 in the 2007 "performance car" listings but won on that comparison because it was focussed on "all around versatility".

Or: perspective matters. (I would say it is indispensible).

At the end of the day (as I said at the end of the original post....which was long, so no worries if everyone didnt make it all the way through to the end...or if they fell asleep before finishing, had to take it chunks, etc) is that the F80 will likely lose head to heads because other car companies are producing much better cars.
You're projecting. While versatility was part of the reasons it's also the car that was the most fun of them all and it had the best motor. Price was also a consideration. Without the motor and superior fun factor "versatility" would not have put it in 2nd, you can be sure of that.
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      05-27-2014, 12:52 PM   #105
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You're projecting. While versatility was part of the reasons it's also the car that was the most fun of them all and it had the best motor. Price was also a consideration. Without the motor and superior fun factor "versatility" would not have put it in 2nd, you can be sure of that.
I was just repeating what the "Verdict" section said to explain why it lost to the R8 in the same magazine's previous listing but beat it on this comparison. They said the difference between those two different placings was a focus on "usability". The point is: different focus, different placing.

(I agree, though, that if the car did not have a great engine, etc, it would not have finished 2nd - it wouldn't be in the comparison at all, but that was not the point I was making)
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Last edited by myzmak; 05-27-2014 at 12:52 PM.. Reason: said 'versatility' not 'usability' originally. whoops.
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      05-27-2014, 12:58 PM   #106
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Question But

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Originally Posted by myzmak View Post
... is that the F80 will likely lose head to heads because other car companies are producing much better cars. That is a good thing, no? Put another way, for car lovers, how could it possibly be bad?
if many people use the reviews as a large part of their buying decision, and then end up buying something else, how is that good for BMW?
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      05-27-2014, 01:07 PM   #107
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if many people use the reviews as a large part of their buying decision, and then end up buying something else, how is that good for BMW?
Well, I guess 2 things:

(1) Similar (or worse) initial reviews didn't seem to depress things too hard for the E90 so I'm not too worried about how BMW will do from some minor nits in what are, taken together or apart, extremely positive reviews of the new car; and

(2) To use the p-word again, my point was coming from the perspective of car lovers, not BMW. From my perspective, having other great options that have been pushed into greatness by the work BMW does is a good thing. I don't want to shop one car, I want to cross-shop several. Even if one goes M3, it should be because the competition it created will force it to be even better - which, come to think of it, is good for BMW too. I see it as a virtuous cycle where the consumer (me) wins.
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      05-27-2014, 02:14 PM   #108
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wow...so much time invested into summarizing what everyone already knows and has been posted countless times before.
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      05-27-2014, 02:19 PM   #109
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wow...so much time invested into summarizing what everyone already knows and has been posted countless times before.
A guy with 6,200 posts to his handle probably isn't in a position to talk about wasting time posting things on a forum....
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      05-27-2014, 02:36 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by myzmak View Post
A guy with 6,200 posts to his handle probably isn't in a position to talk about wasting time posting things on a forum....
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