Who else is considering the Giulia Quadrifoglio?

[mcc3456]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

Sure, the zf in the situation of a single gear change is very consistent and always fast (but can be harsh on downshift, like a bad heel/toe)

The DCT, depending on the throttle application and gear and speed will lag a bit and can be inconsistent on shift, but always consistent on situation (a short shift and quick downshift for instance)

In other words, the dct seems to have the 2nd clutch or gear prepared in anticipation and you decide on another gear which forces it to "release" a prepared shift and do another.

wot shift 1,2,3 etc is lightning fast, but if you wanted to say 1,2,3 short shift 4, then back to 3, sometimes you can throw off the computer, which is usually a driver mistake or an unanticipated traffic situation.

Another situation I have noticed is when cruising in a higher gear, say 50 mph in 4rd, in some anticipation of passing, by downshifting to 3rd, but deciding not to and upshifting 2 gears to 6th, the 2 shift request on the dct will sometimes be one by one instead of instant 2, again really inconsequential.

I experienced a lot of the DCT computer confusion issues at lower speeds to the point that the car would violently buck until you took your foot completely off the throttle. At a certain point, if I did not let off the gas for the TCU to “catch up” it would keep bucking, very badly, all the way down the road. I was afraid the transmission would grenade at those moments.

Very odd issue that was only settled by having the dealer reset the transmission short and long term memory. Seriously, it pissed me off so much, that I’d drive straight to the dealership to have the service manager go for a ride with me, and it would repeat the issue about 50% of the time with him in the car.

While they checked it out, I’d always be looking at trading the car in on the spot, but ultimately the thought of losing so much money buying out the lease and trading it in made no sense. After resetting everything for a 4th and final time in 2 years, I did a lease assignment on Swapalease and fully de-modded my car after I already had the Alfa.

In comparison, the ZF 8 Speed has been an absolute pleasure so far, and the shifts are nearly as quick (almost imperceptibly so) as the DCT...when it was functioning correctly. I’d consider a DCT again in the future, but kind of doubt they will even exist in the next generation of M cars.

[Arcades]

ZF is an automatic, if you don't know how to drive one then I honestly don't know what to tell you.

It has been states numerous times the M-DCT has an attitude. If you don't throttle control properly it will make sure to let you know. I have very rarely driven in the M-DCT, have the car buckle and questioned what I did wrong. Every time my M3 or M4 buckles I know why it did it. You can confuse the M-DCT easily by driving in a way the computer cannot predict but the DCT is at it's best when in constant motion, it does not do well in traffic.

DCT has always been a transmission with that behavior, even the PDK has this if you purposely drive a certain way to pull it out. I have done it plenty of times in the Macan S. The CLA45 I drove was just bad but that's mainly a Benz problem since they don't make good transmissions sadly.

Automatics are automatic, there isn't much more to be said about it.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by mcc3456

I’ll keep my eyes open for it if come across it again and post it. Lord only knows where I found it. Although, anecdotally, I have seen, and you may have as well, where an M240i was actually quicker to about 50MPH or so than an M2 before the M2 finally caught up and started pulling away, not only from a stop, but also from a rolling start. Have you seen that video?

That was an 8 speed auto vs DCT example where correct automatic gearing can make a difference. Anyway, I can understand why the new M5 and RS5 have ZF 8 Speeds based on my pleasant surprise with the performance of the ZF in the Alfa, on both upshifts and downshifts.

0-50mph in cars with such power levels is mostly about traction. M240i xDrive maybe ?

[mcc3456]

Originally Posted by Nikolas

So in the other thread, you tell someone that has test driven the car, that their opinion is not consistent with the reviews.

Here you tell people they need to drive the car and not cherry pick reviews.

I'm sure it's a great car, but telling everyone they don't know what their talking about screams fanboy!

The other thread poster was banned twice within a month. Take his comments with a grain of salt. His comments were SO inaccurate, that anybody with firsthand knowledge of the QVs characteristics would know right away he was full of shit. It’s one thing to try and and prefer something else, but it’s an entirely different thing to spout blatant BS. You guys would recognize the same thing if somebody stated something as ridiculous about the M3, and call them on it like I did.

I’m speaking from firsthand ownership experience of both cars, even simultaneously for two months, and being 100% honest about the reliability of my car since owning it over the past 11k miles. I really do love it, but it’s not perfect, and I’ve never said it was, but nobody bothers to ask what I think are minor annoyances. No car is perfect, but from a driving dynamics perspective, it is pretty freaking phenomenal. I just wish more of you guys could try one firsthand to see for yourself. Both the M3 and Quadrifoglio are head and shoulders above the competition, but different in their execution, despite being nearly identical measurement-wise.

My prior positive comments are not made in a vacuum, as the Quadrifoglio has garnered lots of critical acclaim by many highly-respected car journalists. As an owner, I know which comments are asinine when I hear them, and which ones are pretty accurate. Sadly, some journalists just spew incorrect information about features, specs, operations, etc...likely due to not actually reading the operating manual before beating up on a test car, but it is what is. If they did, they’d see several diagnostic FEATURES meant to preserve the car and prevent damage, whether it be no left foot braking in Race Mode (sad, but true, due to the torque vectoring feature), or even the car being aggressive with low oil or coolant level warnings to prevent destroying the motor.

IMHO, the Quadrifoglio is the better road car, and the M3 is the better beat the living hell out of it track car. I’ve driven my AMGs and M3 on the track, but have little interest in thrashing my Alfa because of the lower wear rating Pirelli Corsa Tires. They are freaking fantastic at speed when pushing them, but damn expensive to waste. Anyway, no malicious intent meant or “fanboydom” here, just being honest about my experience with both cars.

[mcc3456]

Originally Posted by Arcades

ZF is an automatic, if you don't know how to drive one then I honestly don't know what to tell you.

It has been states numerous times the M-DCT has an attitude. If you don't throttle control properly it will make sure to let you know. I have very rarely driven in the M-DCT, have the car buckle and questioned what I did wrong. Every time my M3 or M4 buckles I know why it did it. You can confuse the M-DCT easily by driving in a way the computer cannot predict but the DCT is at it's best when in constant motion, it does not do well in traffic.

DCT has always been a transmission with that behavior, even the PDK has this if you purposely drive a certain way to pull it out. I have done it plenty of times in the Macan S. The CLA45 I drove was just bad but that's mainly a Benz problem since they don't make good transmissions sadly.

Automatics are automatic, there isn't much more to be said about it.

Here’s the thing, pulling out of a street to cross an intersection in both auto or manual mode from a stop should not cause any transmission to violently buck. My service manager confided that BMW had an awful lot of issues with the 2015 DCTs and in a few cases when somebody bitched loudly enough, they’d get into the weeds, and would find some sort of defect with the transmission on a certain run of early cars...which was likely my issue. Don’t recall his exact comment, but was something about a certain gear not being aligned properly or something like that causing an issue. I don’t know exactly what he was referring to, but even he admitted it was not performing as it was supposed to, and suggested resetting the short and long-term memory. Most of the time, it solved the issue...at least for a few months, then would start doing the bucking all over again but even more frequently, until the TCU was reset yet again. After lots of bucking incidents, and four separate appts to reset, I gave up on the car. It was a real hassle demodding about $10k of M performance items and then selling them part by part, but you would have done the same if your DCT was repeatedly a problem. I probably should have bitched at the service manager more like other people, but it’s not my style. Anyway, onward and upward. I love the Alfa, miss certain aspects of the M3, but overall much happier.

[mcc3456]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

0-50mph in cars with such power levels is mostly about traction. M240i xDrive maybe ?

Check this video of M2 vs M240 rolling races. I’m sure you’ve seen it before. Both cars were RWD. Less horsepower in the M240i and it is either keeping up with or in some case pulling away from the M2. Go to about the 35:45 mark to see the races. My last two GFs had an M235 and then an M240 and they were decent shifting, but the ZF 8 in the Quadrifoglio is way quicker shifting in Race Mode (both upshifting and downshifting). When programmed properly, the new autos are not slushboxes any longer.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cphuMPNcdTY

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by mcc3456

Here’s the thing, pulling out of a street to cross an intersection in both auto or manual mode from a stop should not cause any transmission to violently buck. My service manager confided that BMW had an awful lot of issues with the 2015 DCTs and in a few cases when somebody bitched loudly enough, they’d get into the weeds, and would find some sort of defect with the transmission on a certain run of early cars...which was likely my issue. Don’t recall his exact comment, but was something about a certain gear not being aligned properly or something like that causing an issue. I don’t know exactly what he was referring to, but even he admitted it was not performing as it was supposed to, and suggested resetting the short and long-term memory. Most of the time, it solved the issue...at least for a few months, then would start doing the bucking all over again but even more frequently, until the TCU was reset yet again. After lots of bucking incidents, and four separate appts to reset, I gave up on the car. It was a real hassle demodding about $10k of M performance items and then selling them part by part, but you would have done the same if your DCT was repeatedly a problem. I probably should have bitched at the service manager more like other people, but it’s not my style. Anyway, onward and upward. I love the Alfa, miss certain aspects of the M3, but overall much happier.

ZF auto is a good transmission but there are reasons why some want DCT in a M still. Unless it's absolutely necessary like in the F90 M5 with it's long known traction issues needing to be in xDrive aka 4 wheel drive. M3/M4 F80 might be close to this point but you will see all hell break out if BMW throws a ZF in a G80. M5 has had it's niche group of buyers but the change was absolutely necessary. DCT will always be a DCT, the behavior is what makes it known as one. You don't see reviewers tend to say anything about the DCT behavior because it is known enough what it tends to do at low gears. No DCT avoids this because it is a design thing.

I personally have driven the Giulia but not the QV. There were things about the Giulia I liked but others I didn't. For me, a car is a sum of it's parts, not just one thing or another. Tranny being a ZF is still more or less close to all other ZFs regardless of the programming, at the base it is still an automatic. I'm not against autos but I favor DCTs because I want my car to have that DCT behavior. It is slightly irritating at times but I'm far used to it.

M2 would have some traction issues, M240i w/ less HP would give it a benefit of not having to put all of it's power down right away, giving it a better start until later stages. Not everything is HP honestly.

[mcc3456]

Originally Posted by Arcades

ZF auto is a good transmission but there are reasons why some want DCT in a M still. Unless it's absolutely necessary like in the F90 M5 with it's long known traction issues needing to be in xDrive aka 4 wheel drive. M3/M4 F80 might be close to this point but you will see all hell break out if BMW throws a ZF in a G80. M5 has had it's niche group of buyers but the change was absolutely necessary. DCT will always be a DCT, the behavior is what makes it known as one. You don't see reviewers tend to say anything about the DCT behavior because it is known enough what it tends to do at low gears. No DCT avoids this because it is a design thing.

I personally have driven the Giulia but not the QV. There were things about the Giulia I liked but others I didn't. For me, a car is a sum of it's parts, not just one thing or another. Tranny being a ZF is still more or less close to all other ZFs regardless of the programming, at the base it is still an automatic. I'm not against autos but I favor DCTs because I want my car to have that DCT behavior. It is slightly irritating at times but I'm far used to it.

M2 would have some traction issues, M240i w/ less HP would give it a benefit of not having to put all of it's power down right away, giving it a better start until later stages. Not everything is HP honestly.

True, but even with a rolling start? The M2 only has 25-30 more horsepower. I chock the close results to gearing and tuning of the engines.

Don’t get me wrong, I loved my DCT when it was working great, and absolutely hated it with a passion when violently bucking until removing throttle input. Was not a good thing. Not my first experience with a DCT...just my worst one, but again could have been an actual mechanical defect/problem. It could not have been normal. I’m guessing the extra 80 hp from my tune might not have helped the situation, but in full disclosure, I experienced the same issue prior to installing the tune. It’s history now, but the point is, I really impressed with the shifting in the Quadrifoglio, especially in Race Mode, in manual position.

Here it is in the upcoming Stelvio Quadrifoglio. Go to the 3:05 mark to see the ZF 8 Speed shifted manually in Race Mode. BTW...keep in mind the Giulia Quadrifoglio is tuned to shift faster (100ms) than the Stelvio too. Not sure about you, but I’m impressed.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_bhn7UbD5LQ

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by mcc3456

Check this video of M2 vs M240 rolling races. I’m sure you’ve seen it before. Both cars were RWD. Less horsepower in the M240i and it is either keeping up with or in some case pulling away from the M2. Go to about the 35:45 mark to see the races. My last two GFs had an M235 and then an M240 and they were decent shifting, but the ZF 8 in the Quadrifoglio is way quicker shifting in Race Mode (both upshifting and downshifting). When programmed properly, the new autos are not slushboxes any longer.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cphuMPNcdTY

Oh yes, that video was "scientifically accurate" with a passenger in the M2 and none in the M240i, jumping on starts, both cars not starting at the same speed

The M2 only has a 30hp advantage in power over the M240i, which is not huge. Have a look at the C&D results below for a DCT M2 and 8AT M240i showing the M2 to be faster. You are right though that the DCT gearing is not ideal for the F8X since it was optimized for the S63Tü in the M5/6. But even then, the M2 is faster.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/amv-prod-ca...omatic2016.pdf
https://s3.amazonaws.com/amv-prod-ca...wm240i2017.pdf

[mcc3456]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Oh yes, that video was "scientifically accurate" with a passenger in the M2 and none in the M240i, jumping on starts, both cars not starting at the same speed

The M2 only has a 30hp advantage in power over the M240i, which is not huge. Have a look at the C&D results below for a DCT M2 and 8AT M240i. The M2 is faster.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/amv-prod-ca...omatic2016.pdf
https://s3.amazonaws.com/amv-prod-ca...wm240i2017.pdf

Nobody said definitively that the anecdotal video was scientifically accurate, just really impressive. However, one could say the same about testing two different cars on different days with different weather conditions.

The point was, new automatics have closed the gap immensely with DCTs. If they hadn’t, Audi would still be using a DCT on the RS5, as would BMW in the new M5. Surely they wouldn’t risk the ire of model loyalists by making such a dramatic change unless the new technology in automatics was actually better in most way. How can you debate that? BMW and Audi definitely know better than us.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by mcc3456

Nobody said definitively that the anecdotal video was scientifically accurate, just really impressive. However, one could say the same about testing two different cars on different days with different weather conditions.

The point was, new automatics have closed the gap immensely with DCTs. If they hadn’t, Audi would still be using a DCT on the RS5, as would BMW in the new M5. Surely they wouldn’t risk the ire of model loyalists by making such a dramatic change unless the new technology in automatics was actually better in most way. How can you debate that? BMW and Audi definitely know better than us.

C&D correct their results for weather conditions and post the correction factors in the test sheets. The correction factors in the M2 and M240i tests are very close.

I agree, AT are closing the gap with DCT, I've argued the same myself. But they have not, as you claimed, surpassed DCT (yet). I believe BMW and Audi are going the AT route for economic reasons and not performance ones. The AT is "good enough" and cheeper (total cost), so why not. The high-end sports cars (Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, McLaren) are still gong DCT because they can afford it for the performance edge.

[logicalunit]

Originally Posted by mcc3456

I experienced a lot of the DCT computer confusion issues at lower speeds to the point that the car would violently buck until you took your foot completely off the throttle. At a certain point, if I did not let off the gas for the TCU to “catch up” it would keep bucking, very badly, all the way down the road. I was afraid the transmission would grenade at those moments.

Interesting. I can't remember having that issue in the last >1 year or so. Maybe a SW update has resolved that? Or I adjusted my driving. I do remember experiencing it when the car was new... A cold engine, Sport Plus mode and short aggressive throttle input would suddenly feel like the engine is managing the throttle by itself (on/off/on/off/..). So Sport Plus throttle was a 'no go' for at least 5-10 mins until the engine warmed up. What's interesting tho is that I always thought it was the engine, not the transmission.

Anyways, it's related to setup/software rather than the technology itself, take the PDK as an example. I do like the smoothness of the ZF and wouldn't mind having that transmission on my daily, it would erase some rough edges... but that's a double-edged sword obviously, ain't that edginess a reason why we like sports cars? Alpina builds cars for those who like the performance but not the edginess, so I think BMW has pretty much covered the spectrum already. But I do wonder how Alpina is going to differentiate itself against BMW M in the future.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by mcc3456

True, but even with a rolling start? The M2 only has 25-30 more horsepower. I chock the close results to gearing and tuning of the engines.

Don’t get me wrong, I loved my DCT when it was working great, and absolutely hated it with a passion when violently bucking until removing throttle input. Was not a good thing. Not my first experience with a DCT...just my worst one, but again could have been an actual mechanical defect/problem. It could not have been normal. I’m guessing the extra 80 hp from my tune might not have helped the situation, but in full disclosure, I experienced the same issue prior to installing the tune. It’s history now, but the point is, I really impressed with the shifting in the Quadrifoglio, especially in Race Mode, in manual position.

Here it is in the upcoming Stelvio Quadrifoglio. Go to the 3:05 mark to see the ZF 8 Speed shifted manually in Race Mode. BTW...keep in mind the Giulia Quadrifoglio is tuned to shift faster (100ms) than the Stelvio too. Not sure about you, but I’m impressed.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_bhn7UbD5LQ

dct is an auto manual, you need to drive it like one. Do it and it rewards you with more direct feel to the engine, and optimized multi shifts.

zf is a torque converter auto, it is idiot proof. It is good enough for the street, that's it.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by logicalunit

Interesting. I can't remember having that issue in the last >1 year or so. Maybe a SW update has resolved that? Or I adjusted my driving. I do remember experiencing it when the car was new... A cold engine, Sport Plus mode and short aggressive throttle input would suddenly feel like the engine is managing the throttle by itself (on/off/on/off/..). So Sport Plus throttle was a 'no go' for at least 5-10 mins until the engine warmed up. What's interesting tho is that I always thought it was the engine, not the transmission.

Anyways, it's related to setup/software rather than the technology itself, take the PDK as an example. I do like the smoothness of the ZF and wouldn't mind having that transmission on my daily, it would erase some rough edges... but that's a double-edged sword obviously, ain't that edginess a reason why we like sports cars? Alpina builds cars for those who like the performance but not the edginess, so I think BMW has pretty much covered the spectrum already. But I do wonder how Alpina is going to differentiate itself against BMW M in the future.

I have a feeling most issues are user error. People who have never driven manual gearboxes are not as understanding of the concept of a computer controlled manual transmission. They are comparing the gearbox to a conventional autobox.

I have never had any bucking issues that were a result of the dct, usually it is because I am in sports plus and treating the throttle like an on/off switch or in the wrong gear for the speed, i.e. 1st on a roll.

Most people seem to judge things by ease of use, rather than need for skill.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by mcc3456

Nobody said definitively that the anecdotal video was scientifically accurate, just really impressive. However, one could say the same about testing two different cars on different days with different weather conditions.

The point was, new automatics have closed the gap immensely with DCTs. If they hadn’t, Audi would still be using a DCT on the RS5, as would BMW in the new M5. Surely they wouldn’t risk the ire of model loyalists by making such a dramatic change unless the new technology in automatics was actually better in most way. How can you debate that? BMW and Audi definitely know better than us.

Audi is using the 8 speed zf on the RS5 because their longitudinal mounted dct limits have been reached just like BMW. Once you go beyond approx 550 lbs/ft of torque the current longitudinally mounted DCT limits have been reached, requiring new clutch packs and questionable reliability for a mass production 4 year warranty product.

Did you not notice that the TT RS/ RS3 with lower hp and torque uses a DCT?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

Audi is using the 8 speed zf on the RS5 because their longitudinal mounted dct limits have been reached just like BMW. Once you go beyond approx 550 lbs/ft of torque the current longitudinally mounted DCT limits have been reached, requiring new clutch packs and questionable reliability for a mass production 4 year warranty product.

Did you not notice that the TT RS/ RS3 with lower hp and torque uses a DCT?

I think the "limit" stems from no available "off the shelf" longitudinal DCT that can handle over 700N-m. Gearbox manufacturers have developed transaxle DCT units that can handle a lot more more torque because there is a demand for them (not so much in terms of volume, but rather in terms of willingness to pay). Just think of the Chiron's W16 with 1180lb-ft of torque, DCTs can handle a lot of torque if designed to do so. The market for a high torque longitudinal DCTs seems rather limited.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I think the "limit" stems from no available "off the shelf" longitudinal DCT that can handle over 700N-m. Gearbox manufacturers have developed transaxle DCT units that can handle a lot more more torque because there is a demand for them (not so much in terms of volume, but rather in terms of willingness to pay). Just think of the Chiron's W16 with 1180lb-ft of torque, DCTs can handle a lot of torque if designed to do so. The market for a high torque longitudinal DCTs seems rather limited.

Thanks, I should have explained that.

Did your wife get her RS3? I have 2 in my neighborhood and I can imagine all the fun she must be having by now.

[mcc3456]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

dct is an auto manual, you need to drive it like one. Do it and it rewards you with more direct feel to the engine, and optimized multi shifts.

zf is a torque converter auto, it is idiot proof. It is good enough for the street, that's it.

Not for nothing, but I learned to drive a stick on a gated shifter Ferrari, and have had 3 manual transmission Porsches. Fairly sure I understand the concept of driving a manual transmission and also dual clutch transmission. Also have a single clutch transmission in the family as well. Definitely not user error, thank you very much. How about the possibility there was actually something wrong with the car’s transmission? Have driven many DCTs and this was the first one to have that problem. A fellow F80 M3 owner from Turner Motorsport had the same issue, and also experienced it with my car too during a test drive. His was also an early production 2015 F80.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by mcc3456

Not for nothing, but I learned to drive a stick on a gated shifter Ferrari, and have had 3 manual transmission Porsches. Fairly sure I understand the concept of driving a manual transmission and also dual clutch transmission. Also have a single clutch transmission in the family as well. Definitely not user error, thank you very much. How about the possibility there was actually something wrong with the car’s transmission? Have driven many DCTs and this was the first one to have that problem. A fellow F80 M3 owner from Turner Motorsport had the same issue, and also experienced it with my car too during a test drive. His was also an early production 2015 F80.

It's possible, but with the information you provided and the inclination you have for the zf says something as well.

[mcc3456]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

It's possible, but with the information you provided and the inclination you have for the zf says something as well.

Yes, what is says is I am 49 years old, live in an area with tremendous traffic, hate traffic, and would prefer to avoid asymmetrical quadricep and calf muscles.

I would not rule out a stick for a pure weekend car, but right now I am enjoying not have two vehicles to maintain. I have my eye on 2016 Porsche Boxster Spyder, but trying to hold off dealing with the inevitable hassles of dual vehicle ownership, and not provoking my nasty Ex-wife.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by mcc3456

Yes, what is says is I am 49 years old, live in an area with tremendous traffic, hate traffic, and would prefer to avoid asymmetrical quadricep and calf muscles.

I would not rule out a stick for a pure weekend car, but right now I am enjoying not have two vehicles to maintain. I have my eye on 2016 Porsche Boxster Spyder, but trying to hold off dealing with the inevitable hassles of dual vehicle ownership, and not provoking my nasty Ex-wife.

Well done. We can disagree, but we can find humor in it and laugh at each other and ourselves.

[996ttelise]

Originally Posted by mcc3456

Yes, what is says is I am 49 years old, live in an area with tremendous traffic, hate traffic, and would prefer to avoid asymmetrical quadricep and calf muscles.

I would not rule out a stick for a pure weekend car, but right now I am enjoying not have two vehicles to maintain. I have my eye on 2016 Porsche Boxster Spyder, but trying to hold off dealing with the inevitable hassles of dual vehicle ownership, and not provoking my nasty Ex-wife.

Lol, EX-wife. Now there’s a surprise.