M4 vs Gen VI Camaro ZL1 (640Hp)

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Bunkei

Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware of the overheating issues with the Z51, but I'm not much of a Corvette person

You have legitimate points of concern, and my only point will be that eventually it should be addressed. However, that does little to comfort existing owners.

I don't believe in brand bias though. I don't believe that the badge will tell you (nowadays) how reliable a car will be. As upset as you might be with GM, may I also direct your attention to BMW for the cesspool of shit they've put owners of the 2006-2008 E60 SMG M5's through. It's darn near a crime and those cars should be recalled.

I will never buy GM cars on moral grounds. The scandal and the subsequent cover-up with the ignition issue, and the company trying to dodge responsibility by saying that the fault lies with pre-bankrupt GM, and not present-day (post-bankrupt) GM is completely insane; considering that they employ the same people.

I feel you for your car choice. I'm not in a position to buy another car, but even if I was, BMW doesn't build anything in my price range that comes close to the performance of the E92 M3 or even my previous car (E92 335).

100% agree with your GM take.

But, BMW makes nothing in your price range to replace your 08 M3 performance wise? Unless you need four doors an M2 will outperform an E9X M3 and 335. At a cheaper or at least comparable price to the M3. Unless you bought it used.

[Gearhead999s]

After one flying lap in a Z06 at Sebring

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

After one flying lap in a Z06 at Sebring
[/IMG]

It's not easy to make FI cars that do not overheat. Up to now it looks like only Porsche and BMW have figures that one out

[ixse]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

It's not easy to make FI cars that do not overheat. Up to now it looks like only Porsche and BMW have figures that one out

My good old evo ran at willow springs all day during 105 degree summer heat w/o a single problem. So sad how mitsu turd president wanted cheap profit and killed all the goodies.

[ClothSeats]

Originally Posted by fusionchicken

Haha, this reminds me of the Top Gear episode with Clarkson covering the c6 z06 where the first thing the Nav finds for you is fast food restaurants

[fusionchicken]

Originally Posted by ixse

My good old evo ran at willow springs all day during 105 degree summer heat w/o a single problem. So sad how mitsu turd president wanted cheap profit and killed all the goodies.

Yeah I brought my Evo IX to hell and back and it just kept begging for more, had minor bolt-ons making 330awhp, on cold nights i really miss that car

Originally Posted by ClothSeats

lol

[Bunkei]

Originally Posted by minn19

100% agree with your GM take.

But, BMW makes nothing in your price range to replace your 08 M3 performance wise? Unless you need four doors an M2 will outperform an E9X M3 and 335. At a cheaper or at least comparable price to the M3. Unless you bought it used.

I did buy it used. After negative equity and taxes, my car was $46K when I bought it 2 1/2 years ago. It was a great deal, only had 39K miles and was well taken care of.

I guess that would get me into an M235i .. :/ Too small though. It just sad that $50K in the E46 era would get you into an M3. Now $50K will get you a nice 328i. Heck that still wouldn't be fully loaded.

[ClothSeats]

Originally Posted by Bunkei

I did buy it used. After negative equity and taxes, my car was $46K when I bought it 2 1/2 years ago. It was a great deal, only had 39K miles and was well taken care of.

I guess that would get me into an M235i .. :/ Too small though. It just sad that $50K in the E46 era would get you into an M3. Now $50K will get you a nice 328i. Heck that still wouldn't be fully loaded.

$50k will get you an M2 which is close to $40k in 2006 money. And the E46 is not really any roomier than a 2-series. F80 is moving upscale now, sort of blurring the line between what M3 and M5 used to be.

[Bunkei]

Originally Posted by ClothSeats

$50k will get you an M2 which is close to $40k in 2006 money. And the E46 is not really any roomier than a 2-series. F80 is moving upscale now, sort of blurring the line between what M3 and M5 used to be.

I was surprised at the base price of the M2; I thought it started in the mid 50K range. It's still too small for me .. lol. The E92 is perfect as far as the dimensions. It is true that the M3 is moving upscale now, and it seems that your money will continually buy you less and less with each succeeding generation.

I mean, how stupid does it sound nowadays when we defend BMWs (especially against american competition) by saying that it has a nicer interior or more luxury. Remember the days when we said it was the better driver's car? :/

[Bunkei]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

It's not easy to make FI cars that do not overheat. Up to now it looks like only Porsche and BMW have figures that one out

I think it's quickly going to be the norm. I don't see how these FI cars producing 600+ hp won't have cooling issues of some kind.

For a basis of comparison, how do the new M5/M6s do on the track in terms of handling the heat?

[Vocans]

Originally Posted by Bunkei

I was surprised at the base price of the M2; I thought it started in the mid 50K range. It's still too small for me .. lol. The E92 is perfect as far as the dimensions. It is true that the M3 is moving upscale now, and it seems that your money will continually buy you less and less with each succeeding generation.

I mean, how stupid does it sound nowadays when we defend BMWs (especially against american competition) by saying that it has a nicer interior or more luxury. Remember the days when we said it was the better driver's car? :/

Of course your money will buy you less and less--that's inflation for you. When inflation is factored in, the price of the M3 hasn't changed all that much. With regards to your second point, I don't think it's an issue of BMW not meeting expectations as much as it is GM really stepping their game up and producing a fantastic chassis with the Alpha platform.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Vocans

Of course your money will buy you less and less--that's inflation for you. When inflation is factored in, the price of the M3 hasn't changed all that much. With regards to your second point, I don't think it's an issue of BMW not meeting expectations as much as it is GM really stepping their game up and producing a fantastic chassis with the Alpha platform.

+1.

My E90 M3 base price was $57k if I recall correctly. The F80 started at $63k, and it included NAV, heated seats front/rear, folding rear seats etc. all standard. I would have ordered these anyway, so it's all good for me.

So option for option maybe the F80 might be $2k more expensive than the E90, which is not too bad adjusted for inflation over 7 years.

I would say you get more and more car for the money, if you adjust for inflation. Not adjusting for inflation is unreasonable, the manufacturer's costs are going up after all.

[Bunkei]

Originally Posted by Vocans

Of course your money will buy you less and less--that's inflation for you. When inflation is factored in, the price of the M3 hasn't changed all that much. With regards to your second point, I don't think it's an issue of BMW not meeting expectations as much as it is GM really stepping their game up and producing a fantastic chassis with the Alpha platform.

Yes, inflation is a bitch. However, while the starting price of the M3/M4 may not have moved much factoring in inflation and standard equipment, that's certainly not the case when looking at the replacement for the 335i coupe. I did a little research, and the base 435i starts @ $48,945. In comparison, a 2011 335i coupe's base MSRP starts at $44,100. With cold weather package and M-sport package, it still comes in at a reasonable $47,650.

... and what's this? You can't get a manual with the 435i?? I looked all over the options page, and see no mention of a stick option anywhere. Hence my point that BMW doesn't really build anything that's appealing in the price range where the E92 335i's could be bought for as new. The M235i is just too small for me, but that is entirely subjective and a matter of personal taste.

As to your response concerning my second point ... I think it's a combination of both. I've heard great things about the current M3/M4. It has probably the most responsive turbocharged engine on the market coupled with the brilliant and quick shifting DCT. On the street and on the track, it's a wrecking ball that puts up eye-popping numbers. However, it seems that most reviews are unanimous that it's not the driver's car that it was once known for.

[Vocans]

Originally Posted by Bunkei

Yes, inflation is a bitch. However, while the starting price of the M3/M4 may not have moved much factoring in inflation and standard equipment, that's certainly not the case when looking at the replacement for the 335i coupe. I did a little research, and the base 435i starts @ $48,945. In comparison, a 2011 335i coupe's base MSRP starts at $44,100. With cold weather package and M-sport package, it still comes in at a reasonable $47,650.

... and what's this? You can't get a manual with the 435i?? I looked all over the options page, and see no mention of a stick option anywhere. Hence my point that BMW doesn't really build anything that's appealing in the price range where the E92 335i's could be bought for as new. The M235i is just too small for me, but that is entirely subjective and a matter of personal taste.

As to your response concerning my second point ... I think it's a combination of both. I've heard great things about the current M3/M4. It has probably the most responsive turbocharged engine on the market coupled with the brilliant and quick shifting DCT. On the street and on the track, it's a wrecking ball that puts up eye-popping numbers. However, it seems that most reviews are unanimous that it's not the driver's car that it was once known for.

When factoring in inflation, that $44,100 in 2011 is $51,200 in 2016 using the average inflation rate. Thus, $48,945 for a 2016 is less than you'd expect to pay based on 2011 pricing.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Bunkei

I think it's quickly going to be the norm. I don't see how these FI cars producing 600+ hp won't have cooling issues of some kind.

For a basis of comparison, how do the new M5/M6s do on the track in terms of handling the heat?

I don't know anyone who tries to track an F10 M5. However, the target demographic is completely different.

M5s are for adults. M3 are for young adults and this is the car that is marketed for track use.

The Z51, Z06, GS, GT350 are all marketed as track cars. You can't get through half a page of a press release without hearing stories of how track ready they are, etc etc. Then they overheat in a few laps.

If you cannot build a +600hp FI car that handles heat, do not market it as track ready. It is poser ready.
I agree that with the amount of horses these things are pumping out it seems likely it's just impossible to cool them adequately, but there's no excuse for marketing it as the second coming of the GT3 when it is not.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Bunkei

Yes, inflation is a bitch. However, while the starting price of the M3/M4 may not have moved much factoring in inflation and standard equipment, that's certainly not the case when looking at the replacement for the 335i coupe. I did a little research, and the base 435i starts @ $48,945. In comparison, a 2011 335i coupe's base MSRP starts at $44,100. With cold weather package and M-sport package, it still comes in at a reasonable $47,650.

... and what's this? You can't get a manual with the 435i?? I looked all over the options page, and see no mention of a stick option anywhere. Hence my point that BMW doesn't really build anything that's appealing in the price range where the E92 335i's could be bought for as new. The M235i is just too small for me, but that is entirely subjective and a matter of personal taste.

As to your response concerning my second point ... I think it's a combination of both. I've heard great things about the current M3/M4. It has probably the most responsive turbocharged engine on the market coupled with the brilliant and quick shifting DCT. On the street and on the track, it's a wrecking ball that puts up eye-popping numbers. However, it seems that most reviews are unanimous that it's not the driver's car that it was once known for.

The biggest difference between the 2007 335i and the 435i is that the old one felt like a proper BMW, the new one does not.

Fortunately the M division still has its magic and produces cars that feel like they should.

The new Ms have gotten more tepic reviews from some mags than the old one in my opinion. However, I keep reading things like 'too rough for a DD', 'needs a smooth road to feel its best', 'cannot put traction down due to excess power'. My somewhat twisted mind interprets these comments like 'good for the track', 'track asphalt is smooth', '305 r comps on the rear axle'

[adc]

Originally Posted by Bunkei

I've heard great things about the current M3/M4. It has probably the most responsive turbocharged engine on the market coupled with the brilliant and quick shifting DCT. On the street and on the track, it's a wrecking ball that puts up eye-popping numbers. However, it seems that most reviews are unanimous that it's not the driver's car that it was once known for.

Actually it is more of a driver's car than the old one, being lighter, more adjustable and responsive.

I'm coming from a 2009 E90 M3 which I've owned for 6 glorious years. For daily driving, the E90 was softer and more comfortable than the F80 - I attribute that to the difference in wheel diameter (18" vs 19" on the new car) and the solidly mounted rear axle in the new car. 6 sp manual in both cars.

Compared to the old car, the F80 has 2 flaws IMO: too many driving modes, and the Active Sound. In the E90 I could just jump in and drive, and never touched the Sport button. In the F80 Sport+ is mandatory for best engine response, as well as switching to Euro MDM.

Anyway I got rid of the second issue by unplugging a cable in the trunk, and sort of took care of the first one by programming a few judicious user profiles along with the M1/M2 buttons.

Other than that, it is a much more energetic car than the E90, more exuberant and ready to play from lower speeds and RPMs. At the track, it is a big leap forward in chassis tuning and response, it basically blew my mind. Rain or dry, it's just a fantastic platform to play with.

Ultimately, the main reason I buy M cars are their ability to go to the track on a whim, dust the cobwebs and have some fun. For pure street driving I think there are better alternatives.

Mine is getting 275/305 NT01's mounted soon, and let the fun begin.

[TRZ06]

Originally Posted by Bunkei

Yes, inflation is a bitch. However, while the starting price of the M3/M4 may not have moved much factoring in inflation and standard equipment, that's certainly not the case when looking at the replacement for the 335i coupe. I did a little research, and the base 435i starts @ $48,945. In comparison, a 2011 335i coupe's base MSRP starts at $44,100. With cold weather package and M-sport package, it still comes in at a reasonable $47,650.

... and what's this? You can't get a manual with the 435i?? I looked all over the options page, and see no mention of a stick option anywhere. Hence my point that BMW doesn't really build anything that's appealing in the price range where the E92 335i's could be bought for as new. The M235i is just too small for me, but that is entirely subjective and a matter of personal taste.

As to your response concerning my second point ... I think it's a combination of both. I've heard great things about the current M3/M4. It has probably the most responsive turbocharged engine on the market coupled with the brilliant and quick shifting DCT. On the street and on the track, it's a wrecking ball that puts up eye-popping numbers. However, it seems that most reviews are unanimous that it's not the driver's car that it was once known for.

To your last paragraph, you are correct.

While the motor and DCT are awesome, BMW have fallen way behind in suspension.

[CirrusSR22]

And now the Z/28 has appeared at the Nurburgring. Huge aero, huge tires, unknown engine.

http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=451924

[OhioRiderAaron]

Originally Posted by CirrusSR22

And now the Z/28 has appeared at the Nurburgring. Huge aero, huge tires, unknown engine.

http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=451924

Jeezbus.

Overkill much? It's amazing where cars have come in the last 10 years; lets enjoy it while it lasts!

[dkhm3]

another mt front page gm fluff piece about the new 10 speed tranny for zl1 faster than the porsche pdk.



http://www.motortrend.com/news/porsc...maro-zl1-auto/

nice chevy/gm ads all over the site. how convenient, you can order right after reading about it! Journalism at its finest.

read the bottom of the article- source: Chevrolet. Information must be accurate, it is from the manufacturer.

Porsche is the next target, I wonder when they will start saying the Camaro z28 is better than Ferrari 458?

[dkhm3]

on a side note, z/28 testing at 'ring crashed.

brakes locked up. looks mean from the front.

http://www.automobilemag.com/news/wa...h-nurburgring/