2015 M4 vs 991.2/991.2 S Butt Dyno Question

[mmmmQuattro]

Originally Posted by Funf6cyl

I disagree. The M3/4 are no better in that regard than any of those cars from a by and large perspective, whereas a Macan is certainly better built with better quality all around. I would say the Golf R is similar to an m3/4 in overall quality. My M3 was full leather and it still felt cheap and rattled and creaked to no end. The M4 was even worse. My Macan GTS with leather interior is much more refined and well put together. There is no comparison there from someone who has owned both.
I certainly do see the value proposition in the Macan and the Cayenne, and seems many others do for some reason or another given their sales volume.

Originally Posted by Funf6cyl

I disagree... a Macan is certainly better built with better quality all around. I would say the Golf R is similar to an m3/4 in overall quality. My M3 was full leather and it still felt cheap and rattled and creaked to no end. The M4 was even worse. My Macan GTS with leather interior is much more refined and well put together. There is no comparison there from someone who has owned both.

it's garbage comments like the above that make people like me, who go out and buy Porsches expecting them to be sooo much better than BMWs, only to then be terribly disappointed

there really isn't that much difference.

[blschaefer1]

Originally Posted by Funf6cyl

I disagree. The M3/4 are no better in that regard than any of those cars from a by and large perspective, whereas a Macan is certainly better built with better quality all around. I would say the Golf R is similar to an m3/4 in overall quality. My M3 was full leather and it still felt cheap and rattled and creaked to no end. The M4 was even worse. My Macan GTS with leather interior is much more refined and well put together. There is no comparison there from someone who has owned both.
I certainly do see the value proposition in the Macan and the Cayenne, and seems many others do for some reason or another given their sales volume.

I’ve owned a 981 Cayman and a 991.1 C2S. The Cayman was a rattle trap with very average build quality and the 991 was better but just on par with the many BMW’s I’ve owned. I am onto Audi’s for the time being and they do seem a small step up in interior quality from BMW but similar. They are all good and within range of one another.

As to sales figures, you are right, Porsche has become an SUV company not a sports car company any longer. They make very high margins for VAG due to clever marketing of the brand, making it possible to charge absurd prices for options etc. Having said that, they are still a niche player in the space. Chart below for Q1 2018, US sales in the mid size premium SUV segment. Macan sales down appreciably, being outsold by the Lincoln MKC.

[blschaefer1]

Originally Posted by Darth One

source? i was told the exact opposite.

Back when I had Porsche's I spent time on some Porsche-related forums and recall this was a hotly debated topic. The thought that Porsche didn't develop the transmission for the Macan from the ground up really ruffled some feathers. But why would they....they had a perfectly good seven speed DSG within VAG already. They massaged the ratios and software, primarily. Below is from Porsche tech in the UK.

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by mmmmQuattro

it's garbage comments like the above that make people like me, who go out and buy Porsches expecting them to be sooo much better than BMWs, only to then be terribly disappointed

there really isn't that much difference.

We can agree to disagree especially since you just said you’ve never owned one. Massive difference. Hence why Porsche sells at the prices they do.

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by blschaefer1

I’ve owned a 981 Cayman and a 991.1 C2S. The Cayman was a rattle trap with very average build quality and the 991 was better but just on par with the many BMW’s I’ve owned. I am onto Audi’s for the time being and they do seem a small step up in interior quality from BMW but similar. They are all good and within range of one another.

As to sales figures, you are right, Porsche has become an SUV company not a sports car company any longer. They make very high margins for VAG due to clever marketing of the brand, making it possible to charge absurd prices for options etc. Having said that, they are still a niche player in the space. Chart below for Q1 2018, US sales in the mid size premium SUV segment. Macan sales down appreciably, being outsold by the Lincoln MKC.

Nope, don’t agree. I’ve owned about 10 M cars and unfortunately the build quality was lackluster - even the M6 we bought got returned within a week because it was so bad -about equal in quality to a Porsche that costs 1/3 of what it did. I have also owned 2 caymans, 3 911s and 2 Macans and there have been stark differences especially when spending both with leather options. On top of that, BMW paint quality is a LOL joke as well as their overall trim. My family owned a dealership of both brands...if you think BMW quality is anywhere close, you’re sorely mistaken.
Yes, Porsche is a niche manufacturer but they continue to grow.

[Darth One]

We can agree to disagree without shitting on each others' cars.

No, there is a significant difference between a 911 and the respective M3/4 if its generation. Except the 996, which y'all can send every copy of to the crusher

There are both objective and subjective reasons why I say this. But if those reasons are not important or compelling to you, then I can understand why you would disagree. But BMW owners on this forum fan the flames when they start implying that Porsche owners are wasting their money.

The same way Porsche owners do when they imply that BMW's are garbage.

My perspective is that Porsches do more things better (but not everything). on the other hand, the price difference is massive, especially when you factor in BMW lease subsidies. So there's definitely still a place for them in my garage. As long as they make that one or two compelling models out of this insane quest they have of populating every number and letter of the alphabet with derivative dreck

[Darth One]

Originally Posted by blschaefer1

Back when I had Porsche's I spent time on some Porsche-related forums and recall this was a hotly debated topic. The thought that Porsche didn't develop the transmission for the Macan from the ground up really ruffled some feathers. But why would they....they had a perfectly good seven speed DSG within VAG already. They massaged the ratios and software, primarily. Below is from Porsche tech in the UK.

Thanks for this. Still confused, though. We've got other people on the Internet (including C&D, apparently) that swear Porsche told them it isn't.

Maybe it doesn't matter. I've only tried Audi's DSG once - on the R8 - and I have nothing bad to say about it

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by Darth One

. Except the 996, which y'all can send every copy of to the crusher

[Darth One]

I mean you can buy them all if you want. No one else wants them


(And here we go )

[blschaefer1]

Originally Posted by Funf6cyl

Nope, don’t agree. I’ve owned about 10 M cars and unfortunately the build quality was lackluster - even the M6 we bought got returned within a week because it was so bad -about equal in quality to a Porsche that costs 1/3 of what it did. I have also owned 2 caymans, 3 911s and 2 Macans and there have been stark differences especially when spending both with leather options. On top of that, BMW paint quality is a LOL joke as well as their overall trim. My family owned a dealership of both brands...if you think BMW quality is anywhere close, you’re sorely mistaken.
Yes, Porsche is a niche manufacturer but they continue to grow.

It’s the Porsche effect - the buyers need to justify the premium they paid so they imagine things are better than they actually are. In terms of simple build quality and materials used there is not a huge difference between any of the German brands. The orange peel on my 991 looked just the same as on my Audi’s and former BMW’s. All of them are within range of each other. We did have an X1 at one point and it was a step down in interior materials but very solidly built. The Audi’s we have now are very well built with high quality materials - similar to my Porsche’s. I also had a 2007 M Coupe at one point that was built like a vault and aged well. Porsche does have nice leather but you pay for it.

My 981 Cayman S was ironically the most troublesome car I’ve owned in the last 15 years. Rattles upon rattles. The rear hatch had ill fitting seals and trim that resonated at certain engine RPM’s. It spent weeks in the shop looking for answers, everything getting replaced. Some improvement but the issue never went away. The Service Advisors were baffled. As spectacular as that car was in other areas it almost seemed Porsche gave the rear hatch to a summer intern to design and called it a day. Mine was a 2014 and I noticed they changed the design of the trim pieces slightly on the 2015’s. Maybe that fixed it. I hate rattles and it tarnished an otherwise amazing car. Inexcusable on an $85k car. My 991 was solid and rattle free so maybe my 981 was built on a Friday afternoon during Oktoberfest or something.

Porsche builds a great car...and so do the other German brands. There simply isn’t the huge gap in quality that you suggest. Frankly the gap should be wider given the price premium on some models.

[mmmmQuattro]

Originally Posted by Funf6cyl

We can agree to disagree especially since you just said you’ve never owned one. Massive difference. Hence why Porsche sells at the prices they do.

? I have owned a 911 and currently my wife has a Macan S - drove it back to back with my M4 today.
Cant find that mssive difference...

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by blschaefer1

It’s the Porsche effect - the buyers need to justify the premium they paid so they imagine things are better than they actually are. In terms of simple build quality and materials used there is not a huge difference between any of the German brands. The orange peel on my 991 looked just the same as on my Audi’s and former BMW’s. All of them are within range of each other. We did have an X1 at one point and it was a step down in interior materials but very solidly built. The Audi’s we have now are very well built with high quality materials - similar to my Porsche’s. I also had a 2007 M Coupe at one point that was built like a vault and aged well. Porsche does have nice leather but you pay for it.

My 981 Cayman S was ironically the most troublesome car I’ve owned in the last 15 years. Rattles upon rattles. The rear hatch had ill fitting seals and trim that resonated at certain engine RPM’s. It spent weeks in the shop looking for answers, everything getting replaced. Some improvement but the issue never went away. The Service Advisors were baffled. As spectacular as that car was in other areas it almost seemed Porsche gave the rear hatch to a summer intern to design and called it a day. Mine was a 2014 and I noticed they changed the design of the trim pieces slightly on the 2015’s. Maybe that fixed it. I hate rattles and it tarnished an otherwise amazing car. Inexcusable on an $85k car. My 991 was solid and rattle free so maybe my 981 was built on a Friday afternoon during Oktoberfest or something.

Porsche builds a great car...and so do the other German brands. There simply isn’t the huge gap in quality that you suggest. Frankly the gap should be wider given the price premium on some models.

We see the dichotomy differently. I don’t see the quality, materials, fit and finish and general quality of items to be close. If you ever get the chance to see them being made, the quality control, you’d see...unfortunately more people don’t, and don’t know better.
I do agree on rattles. It is annoying to no end and once I’ve heard one nothing I do can stop me from hearing it. I would have though an 85k M3/4 or especially a 130k M6 would have been at least decent, but no, they all had bad trim pieces. My Porsches have all been rattle free and exceptionally well built. Now, when t comes to Marques, I also don’t think Mclaren, Aston or Ferrari make as well built of a car either. The quality of the Aston V12 vantage and the 570S I just looked at were not where I’d expect 200k (MSRP) cars to be.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by Darth One

I mean you can buy them all if you want. No one else wants them


(And here we go )

haha, I do agree with you. everyone wants the oval headlights