A bit worried that the M4 won't come with a manual

[Holset]

Swamp2 said in a thread that he didn't think the M4 F82 would come with a manual so i tried to look up some info.
I found only one video with a prototype M4 thats seems to be a manual but i guess thats better than nothing.
I do have seen plenty of video of prototype F80 M3's testing with manuals and from my understanding the two cars are similar so i guess the most of the manual testing could be done in the M3's and be tranferd to the M4's.

And atleast in North America you still can get the M5 and M6/M6GC with a manual so my hopes are still pretty good.

Any thoughts?

[BMW269]

The M3/M4 F8X DOES come with manual. Only next generation might not come with manual, but to my knowledge this has not been decided yet.

[cmk227]

It will be a manual. If the M6 has a manual option this will also have one as well.

[Holset]

Sounds good! Thanks for the replys.

[swamp2]

I did miss the available MT option in the US M5 spec sheet at bmwusa.com. I hope the new M3 and M4 only come with M-DCT though. It is such superior kit and is such a good match for the car. I've always been a lifelong MT guy and agree it's fun but it's time to accept the future and the substantial added performance. Also, if its good enough to be the only option on the new Porsche GT3, it should be good enough for the M3/M4.

Oh well probably just starting the umpteenth MT vs. DCT debate...

[solstice]

Why would you wish for DCT only? Seems selfish to me, more options is better than less IMO. I have the M-DCT now but learnt to drive in MTs and drove them exclusively for the first 15 years and I'm seriously considering to go back to MT with the F80.

The DCT has it's own strengths but it still can't match the involvement with an MT or the direct selection of gears in manual mode. I like the DCT a lot but I miss the direct gear selection especially under hard breaking. For example going directly from 6th to 3rd without having to count or look at anything just push the lever into a known physical location.

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I did miss the available MT option in the US M5 spec sheet at bmwusa.com. I hope the new M3 and M4 only come with M-DCT though. It is such superior kit and is such a good match for the car. I've always been a lifelong MT guy and agree it's fun but it's time to accept the future and the substantial added performance. Also, if its good enough to be the only option on the new Porsche GT3, it should be good enough for the M3/M4.

Oh well probably just starting the umpteenth MT vs. DCT debate...

No worries, the M3/M4 after F8X might not get any manual. Next generation 911 will also not get manual.

[Kung Fu English]

is it just me or does it bug anyone else when people call a stick shift a 'manual'.

It will definitely have a manual transmission. The question is 6MT vs DCT.

The DCT is a manual transmission too. Just has an automatic clutch. But this shifting is manual. Even in D mode it's basically just simulated automatic.

[SCOTT26]

M3 and M4 will be available with manual transmission.
Its the next generation that might not...

[bimmerjph]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

M3 and M4 will be available with manual transmission.
Its the next generation that might not...

What happened to this?
"The M3 needs to have a stick shift. It will always have a stick shift."

http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=708248

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by solstice

Why would you wish for DCT only? Seems selfish to me, more options is better than less IMO. I have the M-DCT now but learnt to drive in MTs and drove them exclusively for the first 15 years and I'm seriously considering to go back to MT with the F80.

The DCT has it's own strengths but it still can't match the involvement with an MT or the direct selection of gears in manual mode. I like the DCT a lot but I miss the direct gear selection especially under hard breaking. For example going directly from 6th to 3rd without having to count or look at anything just push the lever into a known physical location.

Should be also have hand crank starters for feeling "involved" and "connected". How about distributors and points for easier wrenching? Let's also go back to lap belts with no airbags. The new system have too much complex electronics. We can also ditch power steering it removes the feeling of being "in touch" with the road surface.

One key reason for DCT only is cost and simplicity. Not that it can even be less cost than a simply MT at the same volume but less options and more production volumes will bring cost down for better technology. Also a DCT is a perfect match for either a high reving engine or one with any turbo lag. Unfortunately though with the new M engine direction a DCT will be less advantageous than with the current engine.

Like I said, I also grew up with and have used MTs exclusively until this DCT. I'm now a convert.

3 clicks with a paddle can be memorized (i.e. committed to muscle memory) just as easily as the position of a gear slot. It is also infinitely (truly infinite since the probability with a DCT is precisely 0!) less likely to result in a money shift under this circumstance.

DCT allows the driver the ability to use his observation and motor skill more for setting up braking and cornering without any "human bandwidth" dedicated to the somewhat complex art of proper rev matching and downshifting. Let the computer and hydraulics do the hard work. Let the human do what the computer can not do.

Last but not least consider that in the current car M-DCT is probably exactly equivalent to 20-40 additional (free) horsepower. It depends on what particular contest is under consideration. In any case the difference in performance is significant. This has been extensively debated here on the forum. Don't believe me, search around (of course I've been heavily involved in those debates/discussions.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Kung Fu English

is it just me or does it bug anyone else when people call a stick shift a 'manual'.

It will definitely have a manual transmission. The question is 6MT vs DCT.

The DCT is a manual transmission too. Just has an automatic clutch. But this shifting is manual. Even in D mode it's basically just simulated automatic.

Manual vs. stick doesn't bug me at all. What do you think is the difference?

Well it's a bit more than what you stated with DCT. An automatic clutch and either automatic shifting or manual shifting both with electronics/hydraulics.

This topic has also been EXTENSIVELY debated here on the forum. I even did a poll. Most agreed that a dual clutch transmission should be called either a DCT or Automated Manual. Automatic Transmission was a clear 2nd or 3rd place choice. It's always seemed to me that many who prefer to call a DCT just an Automatic are either a bit luddite-ish about new technology and/or very proud of their own hard won double clutching/rev matching MT skills. I like Automated Manual as the most precise and broad definition because it accounts for AMTs that are not dual clutch such as many Lamborghini AMTs similar to the old BMWs SMG. Automatable Manual might be an even yet superior term but it certainly does not roll off the tongue well...

Diehards on the other side of the spectrum define the state of affairs simply to be no clutch pedal = automatic transmission, period. Not debatable. Personally I think that argument is quite crappy. The reason to use AMT is because it describes the internal/working principle (as you noted it is indeed a manual transmission at heart) as well as implying the mechatronic aspects.

[cmk227]

Originally Posted by solstice

Why would you wish for DCT only? Seems selfish to me, more options is better than less IMO. I have the M-DCT now but learnt to drive in MTs and drove them exclusively for the first 15 years and I'm seriously considering to go back to MT with the F80.

The DCT has it's own strengths but it still can't match the involvement with an MT or the direct selection of gears in manual mode. I like the DCT a lot but I miss the direct gear selection especially under hard breaking. For example going directly from 6th to 3rd without having to count or look at anything just push the lever into a known physical location.

+1000

I honestly could care less if DCT is better. If there are people willing to have manual on an M3/M4 than let us buy what we want with our own money.

For those that say manual should not exist any more your opinion does not matter unless your buying me the car than I take what you buy me.

I plan to order a manual M6GC in the future. My money my choice on the options.

[Falafel Combo]

Also, the f80/82 test mules haven been spotted with 6 MT transmission. No more speculation.

[Ezio]

there is going to come a point where companies do not even want to make manuals anymore. because the gap between them in performance will become to big. not saying the gap is there yet, but its coming.

[bimmerjph]

Originally Posted by Ezio

there is going to come a point where companies do not even want to make manuals anymore. because the gap between them in performance will become to big. not saying the gap is there yet, but its coming.

Sadly I think you are right. I would guess we have about two more generations of 3ers with a manual. This is probably the last 5er. 2er will hopefully keep it for a while though.


I don't get why someone would say I hope a manual isn't offered. Its not even selfish, because they wouldn't get anything out of it. It is just rude. How dare they force their opinions on others.

[Atombyte]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I hope the new M3 and M4 only come with M-DCT though. It is such superior kit and is such a good match for the car. I've always been a lifelong MT guy and agree it's fun but it's time to accept the future and the substantial added performance. Also, if its good enough to be the only option on the new Porsche GT3, it should be good enough for the M3/M4.

Sorry, but eff that. There are still enough of us MT folks out there to justify that option. I do not want an automatic in a performance car, even if it is faster. I want to have fun driving it. I can't have as much fun in an auto.

Originally Posted by Kung Fu English

is it just me or does it bug anyone else when people call a stick shift a 'manual'.

It will definitely have a manual transmission. The question is 6MT vs DCT.

The DCT is a manual transmission too. Just has an automatic clutch. But this shifting is manual. Even in D mode it's basically just simulated automatic.

The DCT as BMW implements it is not a manual transmission. If you can put a transmission in "D" and the car will shift itself, it is an automatic.

[hudamang]

I would like to know if DCT in the M4 will be an option or if it will be standard like on the M5 and M6, but stick is offered as a free option.

I would prefer the latter but we'll see.

[visualguy]

All indications are that MT will be offered on the upcoming M3/M4.

Oh, and DCT is an automatic gearbox. Sure, you can change gears manually with it (just like you can do it on many other automatic transmissions), but it's a completely different experience than driving with a clutch and a stick.

[swamp2]

Sure it is selfish that I think the car should only be offered with a DCT. Similarly it is equally as selfish to desire the car to come with a MT. We would both like to get what we want at the best price possible, quite simple really. Those who want to maximize options are inherently saying they care less about price. Perhaps not much but that is a part of that "vote". Sure I like options too, it's sort of the American way. I certainly though don't like the price difference between a base M3 and a well optioned one. Or even worse yet that differential in a new Porsche.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by visualguy

Oh, and DCT is an automatic gearbox. Sure, you can change gears manually with it (just like you can do it on many other automatic transmissions), but it's a completely different experience than driving with a clutch and a stick.

Entitled to your opinion, doesn't make it correct. Let's imagine for a moment a though experiment. Let's suppose that in a certain DCT tranmission the depression of the paddle activated the clutch and the releasing of the level activated the shift. How is that any different, in essense from a manual transmission where one leg operates the clutch and the arm operates the lever. Oh yeah I guess I missed letting off the gas. Oh yeah some MTs can cut the throttle for you so no gas pedal let off requried.

As far as the experience let's focus on the actual feeling in the car. You can hear and feel clutch and selector operation in the M-DCT (indeed sometimes more prominently than others, but it is still there). The essential difference is any traditional automatic transmission is the feeling of separation in terms of very small jerk/accelerations that are lost because of the FLUID clutch - the torque converter.

Why is this the case? Again because in its most pure design, engineering and mechanical essence, on its inside, it is nothing more than a manual transmission.

Calling them dual clutch transmissions or automated manuals is more clear, more precise and more useful.

[mkoesel]

As with many things in our lives, names are conveniences and don't necessarily capture all the details. Sometimes we even have more than one name for the same thing. In that case, choose the name that most suits the situation and allow others to do the same.

The original question has been answered and we are now off topic so I am closing the thread.