Bootmod3: Stage 2 Review

[applesauce683]

Originally Posted by dmk08

Catless downpipes and BMC drop in filters. AA cat-back increases back-pressure over my setup but not sure how that would change boost targets.

Maybe I did my logging on a cooler day than you, but whenever I ran around with the live dash on the JB4, I consistently saw 24psi. From what I have read, in perfect conditions, JB4 map 2 is around 24psi and BM3 stage 2 is around 22psi.

[Sleeper]

Originally Posted by Warranty P

I would not say ridiculous, dollar for dollar you get more out of Stage 1 for sure. Not many people are interested in data logging or whatever other gizmos are included...most want to set it and forget it. Add to it the ease of removing a piggy back if you need to visit the dealer. What is the cost of BM3 out the door anyway?

I would strongly disagree that you get more, dollar for dollar, out of JB1 vs BM3 or VF. JB1 is a cheap device that alters the DME's interpretation of two signals. The BM3 gives you access to hundreds (thousands?) of tables, allows endless customization possibilities depending on fuel/mods, gives the ability to run various levels of "burble", deletes cold start roar... it's just such a complete solution.

How do you assign value to that, though? Features/dollar? DME tables/dollar? WHP and WTQ/dollar, all else equal? I guess it's just what you consider value. To me, a flash tune on my M3 is the only way to go. I know it's not an exotic, but I'm certainly not putting a cheap piggyback on it when other superior options are available.

[chewbakam4]

Originally Posted by dmk08

Naa. Map2 log from my car running 5 gals of e85. Not even close to 24-25lb. Those are map7 boost levels.

I was talking pump gas. You're resorting to e85 so you can crank boost and then what, run out of fuel, and then add meth to help it further? You miss my point. Looking at power and torque I would put money down a BM3 Stage 2 93oct car would be either dead even or start to pull away from a JB car on stock flash even with your 5gals of E85 in there. Fact is you need ethanol with the JB to get BM3 Stage 2 93oct power. I'm not talking shit on the JB I'd use it if I needed one of its features but that's besides the point. Flash is a complete tune end of story. You start there and then you add a JB for whatever else you need as then your pump gas tune even is best it can be.

[dmk08]

Originally Posted by chewbakam4

I was talking pump gas. You're resorting to e85 so you can crank boost and then what, run out of fuel, and then add meth to help it further? You miss my point. Looking at power and torque I would put money down a BM3 Stage 2 93oct car would be either dead even or start to pull away from a JB car on stock flash even with your 5gals of E85 in there. Fact is you need ethanol with the JB to get BM3 Stage 2 93oct power. I'm not talking shit on the JB I'd use it if I needed one of its features but that's besides the point. Flash is a complete tune end of story. You start there and then you add a JB for whatever else you need as then your pump gas tune even is best it can be.

Im not RESORTING to e85. Its PREFERRED for running high boost. Thats what you're missing. Are 1300whp GTRs resorting to E85? How does having full control of the ECU increase your octane?

[1FastS4]

I think what people are trying to say is that tuning for the F8X has come a long way since the JB4 was your only real option for making decent power. The power that HEX Tuning has been making on unleaded pump fuels has already proven through plenty of dyno plots to be on par with what JB4 guys are making with ethanol.

Here's a great post from a user who switched from JB4 to HEX Tuning.
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...&postcount=970

Alright everyone. Here is a time slip with the exact same 60' I got with the jb4 and the hex tune.

Not sure why people can't read slips. The hex tune I have is stage 1 with STOCK cats. The jb4 I ran was with map 2 w/fuel and ewg connectors and CATLESS dps.

The fact that this tune runs quicker than a fbo f80 is the impressive part.

Don't have me put my 16 hex tune slips all showing 11 sec passes next to 10 jb4 slips where I got 3 11 second passes then 12s and then 13s and a very embarrassing 14.7 run where I ultimately quit after. This tune is consistent, everytime.

I don't care which tune you go with. Both will wake the car up. But I am saying from a lot of dragging experience with the jb4 and now with 16 passes with the hex tune in one night, the hex tune is the one that feels and performs the better of the two.

Other than cars with high levels of ethanol and meth injection, I also think HEX Tuning has the fastest stock turbo timeslips in the country. BM3 is probably not far behind, but without seeing more dyno plots and time slips people are going to endlessly argue about it.

[Reach]

dmk08 I'd encourage you to try/log map 5 as well. The point was already made that map 2 is additive and map 5/6/7/8 are target maps. Map 5 worked the best for top end power on a standard car, I don't know if the ZCP's extra factory top end would cause it to knock or not.

Here's dmk08's log for people to look at interactively:
http://www.datazap.me/u/reach/dmk08-...data=1-4-11-29

[dmk08]

Originally Posted by Reach

dmk08 I'd encourage you to try/log map 5 as well. The point was already made that map 2 is additive and map 5/6/7/8 are target maps. Map 5 worked the best for top end power on a standard car, I don't know if the ZCP's extra factory top end would cause it to knock or not.

Here's dmk08's log for people to look at interactively:
http://www.datazap.me/u/reach/dmk08-...data=1-4-11-29

I have run and logged map5 before and it felt great. I prefer map2 for city driving though as I like that low end grunt. I have so many logs since I use auto-logging ill have to see if I can find one.

[CaryTheLabelGuy]

I've been trying to stay out of these BM3 threads, but let's talk about a few things.

I 100% agree that, from a tuner's perspective (mine or otherwise), a full flash is obviously the better option in a perfect world (with a competent tuner at the helm). Having the ability to totally control all variables of your DME/ECU is always going to Trump a piggyback. However, there are some misunderstood aspects of a flash vs. JB4 that need to be fully understood before we attempt comparing the two.

The stock boost targets vary wildly depending on several conditions (IAT, baro....etc). The JB4 on Map 2 is an additive map and will only add boost over whatever the DME is currently targeting (Map 2 adds 6psi over stock at peak VE, then tapers down to 3.5psi over stock up-top). When it's colder outside, the DME will target a much less lower boost than when IATs are much warmer. The same can be said for altitude or barometer or any combination of several different conditions. There are other compensation tables involved as well for various different parameters. On my ZCP (and even my non-ZCP), I've rarely seen boost over 23psi on map 2. Only on a few occasions will boost targets be high enough for Map 2 to reach 24psi, even on my ZCP. You have to run a custom map 6 or map 7 to reach boost pressures above 23-24psi. Generally speaking, boost pressures on Map 2 are around 20psi in most conditions on map 2, even on the ZCP. I have countless datalogs and testing to back up my statements and anybody with a JB4 that datalogs and knows what they're looking at would agree. I've seen people say their peak boost shoots over 23/24psi all the time on Map 2, but what they're actually seeing is gear-change boost spikes with the throttle plate closed/closing - this doesn't count. Actual boost, post-throttle plate, never reached those levels between gear changes. I've seen pre-throttle plate boost spike to 30psi between gear changes and register as my peak boost, but looking at the datalog, you see that the actual boost pressures barely held 20psi. So just keep that in mind when attempting to compare performance of a JB4 on map 2 and a full flash. Also remember, map 2 tapers additive boost as RPMs increase over 6000rpm (6psi additive at peak, tapering down to 3.5psi towards redline).

Now, I keep hearing people reference the need for E85 (using a Jb4) to match the performance of a flash tune on pump 93. The stock tuning (stock boost) for the S55 (ZCP and non-ZCP) is octane limited, even on pump 93 octane. The knock protocols are very sensitive and probably slightly over-reactive in how the DME handles estimated octane and thus timing will suffer on pump, even on the stock tune. As you increase boost, this problem gets worse and timing nosedives (decreasing potential power and raising EGTs). IMHO, it's better to be safe than sorry when it comes to knock and how the DME handles it. People are using E85 to increase the detonation threshold, allowing the DME to run more timing (which increases potential power, raises efficiency and lowers EGTs), limited by the stock tuning's maximum timing curve. Thus, you can make more power with the same or even less boost pressures. The non-ZCP's overall tuning isn't nearly as good as the ZCP's and thus results on the ZCP are always going to be better (especially when using E85), even at same boost levels. Again, remember that Map 2 on the JB4 isn't running 23+psi in most circumstances (for the sake of comparison) and is tapering additive boost as RPMs increase. It is hard to compare the two because there are a lot of variables at play, not just boost targets or peak boost numbers.

With a flash tune, you can easily manipulate timing curves (and all other tuning parameters) to suit your setup/needs where you're stuck with the OEM timing tables (and all of the other stock tuning parameters/tables and compensation tables) when using any piggyback. If you're running a non-ZCP and are ok with a potential warranty issue, you should obsolutely look into the BM3 platform as this is the best option with proper tuning (a tune is only as good as its tuner). However, if you're running a ZCP, a flash tune isn't as necessary as the ZCP's tuning is already pretty good in factory form and you get the aggressive overrun all without having to crack open the DME.

I've talked about the differences between the ZCP and non-ZCP's tuning at length before so I won't go over all the differences here, but the ZCP's tuning is a huge improvement over the non-ZCP and this should be factored-in to any comparisons between piggyback and flash tune.

So, just keep these things in mind when attempting to compare the JB4 with any flash tune.

[hdubf80]

Originally Posted by CaryTheLabelGuy

I've been trying to stay out of these BM3 threads, but let's talk about a few things.

I 100% agree that, from a tuner's perspective (mine or otherwise), a full flash is obviously the better option in a perfect world (with a competent tuner at the helm). Having the ability to totally control all variables of your DME/ECU is always going to Trump a piggyback. However, there are some misunderstood aspects of a flash vs. JB4 that need to be fully understood before we attempt comparing the two.

The stock boost targets vary wildly depending on several conditions (IAT, baro....etc). The JB4 on Map 2 is an additive map and will only add boost over whatever the DME is currently targeting (Map 2 adds 6psi over stock at peak VE, then tapers down to 3.5psi over stock up-top). When it's colder outside, the DME will target a much less lower boost than when IATs are much warmer. The same can be said for altitude or barometer or any combination of several different conditions. There are other compensation tables involved as well for various different parameters. On my ZCP (and even my non-ZCP), I've rarely seen boost over 23psi on map 2. Only on a few occasions will boost targets be high enough for Map 2 to reach 24psi, even on my ZCP. You have to run a custom map 6 or map 7 to reach boost pressures above 23-24psi. Generally speaking, boost pressures on Map 2 are around 20psi in most conditions on map 2, even on the ZCP. I have countless datalogs and testing to back up my statements and anybody with a JB4 that datalogs and knows what they're looking at would agree. I've seen people say their peak boost shoots over 23/24psi all the time on Map 2, but what they're actually seeing is gear-change boost spikes with the throttle plate closed/closing - this doesn't count. Actual boost, post-throttle plate, never reached those levels between gear changes. I've seen pre-throttle plate boost spike to 30psi between gear changes and register as my peak boost, but looking at the datalog, you see that the actual boost pressures barely held 20psi. So just keep that in mind when attempting to compare performance of a JB4 on map 2 and a full flash. Also remember, map 2 tapers additive boost as RPMs increase over 6000rpm (6psi additive at peak, tapering down to 3.5psi towards redline).

Now, I keep hearing people reference the need for E85 (using a Jb4) to match the performance of a flash tune on pump 93. The stock tuning (stock boost) for the S55 (ZCP and non-ZCP) is octane limited, even on pump 93 octane. The knock protocols are very sensitive and probably slightly over-reactive in how the DME handles estimated octane and thus timing will suffer on pump, even on the stock tune. As you increase boost, this problem gets worse and timing nosedives (decreasing potential power and raising EGTs). IMHO, it's better to be safe than sorry when it comes to knock and how the DME handles it. People are using E85 to increase the detonation threshold, allowing the DME to run more timing (which increases potential power, raises efficiency and lowers EGTs), limited by the stock tuning's maximum timing curve. Thus, you can make more power with the same or even less boost pressures. The non-ZCP's overall tuning isn't nearly as good as the ZCP's and thus results on the ZCP are always going to be better (especially when using E85), even at same boost levels. Again, remember that Map 2 on the JB4 isn't running 23+psi in most circumstances (for the sake of comparison) and is tapering additive boost as RPMs increase. It is hard to compare the two because there are a lot of variables at play, not just boost targets or peak boost numbers.

With a flash tune, you can easily manipulate timing curves (and all other tuning parameters) to suit your setup/needs where you're stuck with the OEM timing tables (and all of the other stock tuning parameters/tables and compensation tables) when using any piggyback. If you're running a non-ZCP and are ok with a potential warranty issue, you should obsolutely look into the BM3 platform as this is the best option with proper tuning (a tune is only as good as its tuner). However, if you're running a ZCP, a flash tune isn't as necessary as the ZCP's tuning is already pretty good in factory form and you get the aggressive overrun all without having to crack open the DME.

I've talked about the differences between the ZCP and non-ZCP's tuning at length before so I won't go over all the differences here, but the ZCP's tuning is a huge improvement over the non-ZCP and this should be factored-in to any comparisons between piggyback and flash tune.

So, just keep these things in mind when attempting to compare the JB4 with any flash tune.

So a ZCP with bm3 will be faster than a non-ZCP with the same map?

[chewbakam4]

Warranty is a funny concept. People are screwed with all of them piggy or flash so let's stop talking about asses going to service trying to claim warranty pretending they never touched it and then acting surprised when they get slapped in the face with warranty rejection.

My comment on resorting to ethanol is legit with a JB. You're adding octane as otherwise you can't make the numbers a flashed BM3 Stage 2 car makes without knocking as you're just cranking boost without touching timing. This isn't rocket science or something nee I'm talking about. These two are like peanut butter and jelly. You tune both of them to make the most power without knocking and that makes the most power on any fucking octane whatever it is. Where do you think numbers will go when the Stage 3 map drops for high octane. Yeah you got it, higher! No one is dissing the JB but principles to tuning don't change just because you can throw more octane at it and be able to turn that boost knob higher.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by hdubf80

So a ZCP with bm3 will be faster than a non-ZCP with the same map?

[Sleeper]

Originally Posted by hdubf80

So a ZCP with bm3 will be faster than a non-ZCP with the same map?

No.

It's the same hardware between the two.

[Sleeper]

Originally Posted by CaryTheLabelGuy

...

It's as useful running a flash tune on a ZCP as it is a non-ZCP. Boost, fuel and timing changes are just as applicable. Strange to suggest otherwise.

[1FastS4]

It's not worth developing a brain bleed overthinking it.

The short version is that Flash Tunes yield identical results on ZCP and non-ZCP cars, period.

And you only see slightly better results with the JB4 on the ZCP because the factory ZCP calibrations from BMW is like having a decent "back end flash" to begin with.

JB4 = people who are intimidated by flash tuning, #causewarranty or who developed an ethanol addiction, #causecheap way to increase effective octane rating.

BM3 = people who are intrigued by the idea of custom tuning, like datalogging, and the future of open source file sharing #likecobb

HEX = people who want something turn key right out of the box and don't see themselves ever going beyond common bolt ons #causesimple and effective.

[BuLoOoSki]

Originally Posted by hdubf80

So a ZCP with bm3 will be faster than a non-ZCP with the same map?

That's not what he's saying. He's saying that the JB4 on a ZCP will outperform a non-ZCP with JB4. Whereas with a flash tune you wont find much difference between a ZCP and a non-ZCP.

[F80Paul]

Originally Posted by Sleeper

It's as useful running a flash tune on a ZCP as it is a non-ZCP. Boost, fuel and timing changes are just as applicable. Strange to suggest otherwise.

I think what he was saying is that if you are running a JB4 and considering flash tune then keep in mind if you already have ZCP then you already have a better flash tune working for you than non-ZCP.

That said, I have a ZCP and JB4 and when I got the BM3 it make a big difference. Nobody is talking about things like load targets. Those changes alone make the car behave much better on high boost.

[Sleeper]

Originally Posted by F80Paul

I think what he was saying is that if you are running a JB4 and considering flash tune then keep in mind if you already have ZCP then you already have a better flash tune working for you than non-ZCP.

That said, I have a ZCP and JB4 and when I got the BM3 it make a big difference. Nobody is talking about things like load targets. Those changes alone make the car behave much better on high boost.

Definitely. But the discussion regarding JB4, VF, or BM3 really centers on power/torque gains with the difference in tuning strategies being second. If you have a ZCP, there's no doubt that from the factory, BMW did a way better job calibrating the DME. However, the ZCP tune leaves almost as much on the table power-wise as the non-ZCP.

If you have a ZCP and you're satisfied with the power from the factory, then you're in good shape. If you have a ZCP and want to make significant gains, get a flash tune or piggyback.

[Sleeper]

Originally Posted by 1FastS4

It's not worth developing a brain bleed overthinking it.

The short version is that Flash Tunes yield identical results on ZCP and non-ZCP cars, period.

And you only see slightly better results with the JB4 on the ZCP because the factory ZCP calibrations from BMW is like having a decent "back end flash" to begin with.

JB4 = people who are intimidated by flash tuning, #causewarranty or who developed an ethanol addiction, #causecheap way to increase effective octane rating.

BM3 = people who are intrigued by the idea of custom tuning, like datalogging, and the future of open source file sharing #likecobb

HEX = people who want something turn key right out of the box and don't see themselves ever going beyond common bolt ons #causesimple and effective.

+1. Nice post.

[chewbakam4]

Originally Posted by 1FastS4

It's not worth developing a brain bleed overthinking it.

The short version is that Flash Tunes yield identical results on ZCP and non-ZCP cars, period.

And you only see slightly better results with the JB4 on the ZCP because the factory ZCP calibrations from BMW is like having a decent "back end flash" to begin with.

JB4 = people who are intimidated by flash tuning, #causewarranty or who developed an ethanol addiction, #causecheap way to increase effective octane rating.

BM3 = people who are intrigued by the idea of custom tuning, like datalogging, and the future of open source file sharing #likecobb

HEX = people who want something turn key right out of the box and don't see themselves ever going beyond common bolt ons #causesimple and effective.

You could say that HEX comment for any random tuner with a file or a couple files out there they flash on every car they get in to tune. All of these approaches have a set it and forget it option. Who's forcing you to do anything custom? You have options and options and features are great especially when they also cost less and make very similar, same or more power. One trick ponies are a dying breed my friend.

[CaryTheLabelGuy]

Originally Posted by chewbakam4

Warranty is a funny concept. People are screwed with all of them piggy or flash so let's stop talking about asses going to service trying to claim warranty pretending they never touched it and then acting surprised when they get slapped in the face with warranty rejection.

My comment on resorting to ethanol is legit with a JB. You're adding octane as otherwise you can't make the numbers a flashed BM3 Stage 2 car makes without knocking as you're just cranking boost without touching timing. This isn't rocket science or something nee I'm talking about. These two are like peanut butter and jelly. You tune both of them to make the most power without knocking and that makes the most power on any fucking octane whatever it is. Where do you think numbers will go when the Stage 3 map drops for high octane. Yeah you got it, higher! No one is dissing the JB but principles to tuning don't change just because you can throw more octane at it and be able to turn that boost knob higher.

Thanks for the tuning lesson, however:

While it's not "rocket science", it surely is over your head and you're kinda being an ass, to boot.

All else equal, a flash tune doesn't magically increase the detonation threshold by itself, allowing for a lot more timing (at least in the case of the S55). There is very little room for improvement in the stock timing tables themselves (particularly in the ZCP tuning). Gains are also made by altering valve overlap, throttle plate tuning (opening 100%) and raising boost (among other things). Gains can also be made by altering overly-conservative compensation tables (to a certain extent). My point is this - a lot of the above techniques to increase power are done by BMW themselves in the ZCP tuning (beyond just boost targets). Again, if you own a ZCP, a flash tune is less necessary. If you own a non-ZCP, a flash tune is almost mandatory to get the features and performance desired.

I bet if you ran a JB4 equipped ZCP car on map 6 and targeted the exact same boost profile of a BM3 stage 2 canned tune both on 93 octane, the results would be closer than you think.

[chewbakam4]

Look its nothing to do with me being this or that. You're saying the same thing now, bmw did more with zcp so JB can do better on a zcp car. Why? Because of everything else they did in the flash. They didn't just give you 2psi more. That's all I'm talking about but no internet argument was ever won so I'll walk away here.

[1FastS4]

Originally Posted by chewbakam4

You could say that HEX comment for any random tuner with a file or a couple files out there they flash on every car they get in to tune. All of these approaches have a set it and forget it option. Who's forcing you to do anything custom? You have options and options and features are great especially when they also cost less and make very similar, same or more power. One trick ponies are a dying breed my friend.

Comparing HEX Tuning to any "random tuner" is like comparing an NBA player to a random person on a basketball court with hightops and a ball looking for a pick up game.

I don't see random tuners developing tools that makes their product distributable through a dealer network, engineering multiple stage levels for various hardware upgrades and fuel levels, offering MAP switching capabilities, supporting the community with some of the best customer service this forum has ever seen while educating people even if you don't own their product, while consistently proving themselves with dyno plots and timeslips that show similar results on cars even when on opposite sides of the country.

I'm willing to bet that none of that sounds like a one trick pony to anyone who doesn't have a BM3 avatar under their username.

If you think that the concept of creating one tune that can be sold to hundreds or thousands of different customers automatically makes it less effective, then someone should break the news to BMW that they're doing it wrong too!

But if you honestly feel that you or your local tuner can out calibrate and out perform what you negatively refer to as "canned" or "off the shelf", then by all means take full advantage of what BM3 offers, just know that doesn't make your assessment of another brands product any more credible or true.