SCH with CBC

[iDriftYou]

Well it finally happened, have had this car since new, countless track days, daily driven, canyons. Over 60k miles worth of abuse and it finally let go. Car starts and runs just fine, after 5 mins it throws those codes, I'm guessing the hub slightly spun, all in all a good experiment, now we know. I was a avid believer of it being a myth and I proved myself wrong, I was testing out a new revision Jordan(RK) sent me for my e85 tune, I just put my spec twin disk clutch in like 50 miles ago, did a small pull in 2nd and it threw intake cam fastener code, deleted it and ran fine then threw this code.


Car will be going to Studio RSR in a few weeks to get the 2-pin Carbahn hub installed. I have to say, the CBC saved my engine from complete failure, this should be a clear message for everyone on the fence about getting a upgraded hub, it's not if it will go, it's when.


UPDATE 09/28/2021: Got a call from my shop, they determined the timing was correct and the CH was in fact not spun, they put the new 2 pin hub in regardless but they said that it's still showing timing codes for both Intake and exhaust cam deviation. Not sure what else it could be? I'm thinking and they also mentioned the Vanos sprockets could be the issue, I've read a thread here where someone was showing same codes and it was the sprockets. Any advice is appreciated.

Update 02/26/2022: Ended up being the reluctor plate behind the flywheel, somehow it was damaged during clutch install and was causing these codes, car is all good now, I'm just disappointed that I could have gone longer with the factory CH, but it is what it is

[TopJimmy]

Sorry to hear, but thanks for helping us learn.

Which CBC did you use?

Are we talking Stage 2+ type of RK E85 tune, or custom and even harder?

[iDriftYou]

Originally Posted by TopJimmy

Sorry to hear, but thanks for helping us learn.

Which CBC did you use?

Are we talking Stage 2+ type of RK E85 tune, or custom and even harder?

VTT. This was the 4th revision he sent me, probably the most aggressive tune he can make for stock turbos. Previously the car was running JB4 w/ MHD BEF full e85 map 7 for over two years without issues. Jordan warned me about my CH and urged me to get it done before I started running his tune, I disregarded his warnings and it humbled me when it did happen. I'm wondering if the Spec twin disk also helped the hub spin as I went from a dual mass flywheel to a single mass. It's all speculation relative to this situation.

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by iDriftYou

this should be a clear message for everyone who wants to tune for significant power and/or run E85 on the fence about getting a upgraded hub, it's not if it will go, it's when.

Fixed for you

[iDriftYou]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

Fixed for you

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I'm just letting you guys know my personal experience, take it how you may.

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by iDriftYou

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I'm just letting you guys know my personal experience, take it how you may.

Right so push an engine far beyond its intended power levels and maxing out the turbos, then come here and make a blanket statement about the inevitability of a part breaking

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your input and contribution on the matter. I only take exception to the last statement you made as it completely ignores the context that you had provided.

[iDriftYou]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

Right so push an engine far beyond its intended power levels and maxing out the turbos, then come here and make a blanket statement about the inevitability of a part breaking

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your input and contribution on the matter. I only take exception to the last statement you made as it completely ignores the context that you had provided.

Sure you may be correct that only tuning would cause more stress and lead to mechanical failure of the hub, but what about the stock cars that are spinning hubs? They maybe fewer cases on stock cars but nonetheless they still fail. Like I said I was part of the non-believers until it actually happened.

[fiveohwblow]

Appreciate the input, it’s certainly been mostly speculation at this point. I too am running CJ E85 tune with a CBC and had the same curiosity, if the spec change up contributed at all. We all know it will bite much harder and that’s the intent… either way if that’s the only reason it went, cars like mine are on the ragged edge.


I like it

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by iDriftYou

Sure you may be correct that only tuning would cause more stress and lead to mechanical failure of the hub, but what about the stock cars that are spinning hubs? They maybe fewer cases on stock cars but nonetheless they still fail. Like I said I was part of the non-believers until it actually happened.

Stock cars do not spin hubs with significant enough frequency to consider the hub a systematic issue. A hub *can* spin just like a bearing *can* fail. Your statement is implicit that everyone's hub will fail at some point which is just completely untrue.

Anyway, relating back to your OP - the power levels that you were pushing are known to this community to spin hubs even with a CBC... there is an entire thread discussing the matter. As a general discussion point - fundamentally, to anyone wishing to run that power, why would you not bulletproof your engine? The engine is being pushed beyond its intended capabilities so it would be prudent to ensure that any potential weak-points are addressed (like a stock hub assembly that is only designed for stock power, i.e. base thru GTS). So your (OP) spin/experience is actually a helpful contribution as it gives us another data point relative to trying to determine where the "danger-zone" is for the stock assembly.

[TopJimmy]

Nobody should give you crap for posting honest truth IMO. You took the risk of CBC-only and have the balls to tell us it's real. I bet others have hidden it from us. Estimation of a hard RK E85 tune is about 625-650HP. It's the TQ that does it but you need a dyno to be sure where that line was. My gut told me the line on slipping that friction disc was about where you are in power level.

Stick car, Spec clutch w LWF… Where in the 2nd gear pull did it fault, shifting 1-2, mid-2, or after?

[1000hp]

I'm sure the e85 tune was the deciding factor with this one.

But... As affordable as the full crank hub fix has become (cheaper than most aftermarket mufflers, coilovers, and even medium-quality wheels) it makes sense to have it done if you're going to make any kind of "big" power.

No sense in arguing about it, really. Either do it or roll the dice.

[iDriftYou]

Originally Posted by TopJimmy

Nobody should give you crap for posting honest truth IMO. You took the risk of CBC-only and have the balls to tell us it's real. I bet others have hidden it from us. Estimation of a hard RK E85 tune is about 625-650HP. It's the TQ that does it but you need a dyno to be sure where that line was. My gut told me the line on slipping that friction disc was about where you are in power level.

Stick car, Spec clutch w LWF… Where in the 2nd gear pull did it fault, shifting 1-2, mid-2, or after?

🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽

I was around 3500rpm in second, 40-50% throttle up to 4500 rpm and let off, within 15 second DTM.

[Wanted_M]

Originally Posted by 1000hp

No sense in arguing about it, really. Either do it or roll the dice.

Just do it and know that a SCH belongs in the past.. I'm covered now but my water pump took a dump, can't win lol.
OP, thanks for fessing up

[Walmart Parking Lot]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

Stock cars do not spin hubs with significant enough frequency to consider the hub a systematic issue. A hub *can* spin just like a bearing *can* fail. Your statement is implicit that everyone's hub will fail at some point which is just completely untrue.

Anyway, relating back to your OP - the power levels that you were pushing are known to this community to spin hubs even with a CBC... there is an entire thread discussing the matter. As a general discussion point - fundamentally, to anyone wishing to run that power, why would you not bulletproof your engine? The engine is being pushed beyond its intended capabilities so it would be prudent to ensure that any potential weak-points are addressed (like a stock hub assembly that is only designed for stock power, i.e. base thru GTS). So your (OP) spin/experience is actually a helpful contribution as it gives us another data point relative to trying to determine where the "danger-zone" is for the stock assembly.

Just say you don't have the CH fix LMAO

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by Walmart Parking Lot

Just say you don't have the CH fix LMAO

You're right, I don't have a "fix" because there's nothing to fix

[Walmart Parking Lot]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

You're right, I don't have a "fix" because there's nothing to fix

At least you admitted it. You also admitted your foolishness. Good job buddy!

[swagon]

Originally Posted by Walmart Parking Lot

At least you admitted it. You also admitted your foolishness. Good job buddy!

Why are you trying to shame him for not fixing a thing that is completely fine? Do you also upgrade your fuel pumps on stock or near-stock cars? It's pointless. M4 GTS is 500 PS 600 Nm and they're just fine.

You're the type of guy to have an invisible lat syndrome, walking into conversations to say unsolicited bullshit.

[RugbyBro]

In an effort to not have this thread veer off course and to be constructive, max turbo capacity & E85 (around 600hp) is territory where a CBC is not fool-proof. If you are in that territory or wish to be, please strongly consider an aftermarket assembly. They do serve a function in this case.

iDriftYou absolutely deserves respect for being forthcoming about his experience. I in no way meant to disparage you for that.

[Spun Pornhub]

sorry this happened to you op! there's a lot of technical opinions from people driving with a stock engine here. doubt these people understand how the crank hub works.

good luck getting your car fixed! I heard red loctite is the move now?

[Taco_Bueno]

Originally Posted by swagon

Why are you trying to shame him for not fixing a thing that is completely fine? Do you also upgrade your fuel pumps on stock or near-stock cars? It's pointless. M4 GTS is 500 PS 600 Nm and they're just fine.

You're the type of guy to have an invisible lat syndrome, walking into conversations to say unsolicited bullshit.

INVISIBLE LAT SYNDROME

LMAO

Thanks for introducing me to that phrase. Perfect description of people that act like that. :

[Walmart Parking Lot]

Originally Posted by swagon

Why are you trying to shame him for not fixing a thing that is completely fine? Do you also upgrade your fuel pumps on stock or near-stock cars? It's pointless. M4 GTS is 500 PS 600 Nm and they're just fine.

You're the type of guy to have an invisible lat syndrome, walking into conversations to say unsolicited bullshit.

Completely fine? What planet are you living on? This thread is literally about something spinning their CH, and not including the other stock hubs that have spun. And great example; so do fuel pumps on stock or near-stock cars fail? If so, at the rate crankhubs are spinning?

I'm not shaming him for not fixing it. I'm calling him out on not thinking it's a problem. You're the type of guy that throws out "invisible lat syndrome" because they can't handle the truth.

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Guys... perspective. The hubs can and do slip. CBC reduces the risk but it can still happen. Not peddling fear, it's a fact. Complete solution (hub + cbc) retires the risk. Now.... if you want to hedge your bets, CBC only is a great step, and depending on your driving style/power level/mods, may be enough of a risk reduction to push you towards not doing the full solution -and that's ok. Makes sense in several situations.

Most of the guys with, ahem, emotional responses, have not actually held a hub in their hands, nor have an engineering degree. To be blunt, the facts don't care about their opinions.

OP, glad the CBC stopped things from getting worse, and glad you're going forward with a full fix -now you can really turn 'er up! Let us know if we can do anything to help.

Best,
Chris