BIMMERPOST BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 First Drive Review

[jzmundy]

My god at all the experts in this thread.

[BMW M3 CRT]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

The car with 600 pound feet of torque would win a drag race. Reason: After each shift, it would be temporarily making more torque, thus more power, and it would begin pulling away.

Bruce

BUT you simply forget the perfect M-DCT ... which is nearly an must to be fast with an HDZ M3.

And don´t make an comparison between an stock M3 and an highly tuned and drag race optimized 335i ... the only fair comparison is between cars in the same hp-class.

[BD SM3RF]

Originally Posted by Jai 302

The M4 looks sleek and upscale. The M3 looks like a pudgy bulldog.

Hey! Don't be bad mouthing my pudgy bulldog

[Gonven]

"I reckon the M4 was more fun than the Lambo Huracan!" - Chris Chilton

And btw its seems Chris Harris arrived in Algarve

[Jockey]

My god I love all the unsubstantiated "facts" being thrown out by some posters here. I sense some hurt pride.

Originally Posted by Boss330

Really?
Many Fxx owners are trying to sell their cars and go back to Exx models???

Exactly. Exactly.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT

BUT you simply forget the perfect M-DCT ... which is nearly an must to be fast with an HDZ M3.

And don´t make an comparison between an stock M3 and an highly tuned and drag race optimized 335i ... the only fair comparison is between cars in the same hp-class.

What in the hell are you talking about.

The question was about two otherwise identical cars with identical power, except one made more torque than the other.

I said the one with more torque would win the race, for the more or less obvious reason stated.

M3s and 335s were not part of either the question or answer - nor were any other particular cars, for that matter.

Jesus.

[CurbBender'90]

Or maybe it's truly a ugly color

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

What in the hell are you talking about.

The question was about two otherwise identical cars with identical power, except one made more torque than the other.

I said the one with more torque would win the race, for the more or less obvious reason stated.

M3s and 335s were not part of either the question or answer - nor were any other particular cars, for that matter.

Jesus.

identical cars having the same hp but different tq. isnt that just a different redline then?

i agree the car with more torque will win but i like high revs!!

[pkimM3r]

i wonder how much power the new audi rs5 and c63 will put out.

but then again recently the m cars hve never won the straight line category but in the overall performance at the limits i still dont think it wil be beat. m cars are not meant for straight line racing.

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by KKM3

"Essentially no lag" That's what they say about all modern bmws.

yeah they do. the f30n20 motor has no lag at all since the turbos are small. i press the throttle and the car responds instantly.

but in the 35i variant, there is major lag. even my wife complains her 135i is unresponsive. one day she comes up to me and says how come i press the gas and then car doesnt go? i said thats turdbo lag! she goes i wish it was more like your car (e90m).

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by SlowSaloonM3

identical cars having the same hp but different tq. isnt that just a different redline then?

Nope. They're identical, except for torque. There's no reason the redline would have to be different.

Originally Posted by SlowSaloonM3

i agree the car with more torque will win but i like high revs!!

Getting back to the general topic, from my perspective, the difference between a 7600 rpm redline and one at 8400 is essentially meaningless. To each his own, however.

Bruce

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

Nope. They're identical, except for torque. There's no reason the redline would have to be different.

Getting back to the general topic, from my perspective, the difference between a 7600 rpm redline and one at 8400 is essentially meaningless. To each his own, however.

Bruce

not when youre ringing it out in high gears getting past 150mph!!

[ASAP]

Note that this car has near identical HP for about the top 2K rpm... So while it is pulling hardest at that time, you will not feel any harder pull at either 5800 or 7200 rpm. They could have used slightly larger turbos to correct this but then someone would have yelled that the engine isn't responsive enough down low and lags and blah blah blah.

Still, I am waiting for Chris Harris because everyone of these reviews is utter junk.

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

Nope. They're identical, except for torque. There's no reason the redline would have to be different.

Getting back to the general topic, from my perspective, the difference between a 7600 rpm redline and one at 8400 is essentially meaningless. To each his own, however.

Bruce

i thought hp is a calculation derived from torque and engine speed? or is that at peak points?

[Randy M]

They critique the throttle response as not being as crisp as the V8....

Well I'll take a split second of hesitation and enjoy the 100+ lb ft. of torque, over the instant throttle response of an engine that makes negligible power until you wring its neck.

What I don't get is that they say the engine is a little flat in its feeling compared to the V8, for the reason that the engine doesn't have to work as hard. Isn't that called performance

[Swancoat]

Originally Posted by Rupes

In other words, two identical cars with identical power delivery, one has 600 pound ft torque the other has 400. Both have the same HP, would the torque really matter in speed, or just in feel?

This is sort of impossible, since HP and Torque are functions of one another. HP at any RPM can be calculated using the torque at that RPM. I think the formula is something like HP = Torque*RPM/5252 (so at 5252 RPM HP and Torque are always equal). So PEAK HP can be a function of merely RPM (where the E92 got a lot of it's 'HP' was revving so high).

[hwelvaar]

Originally Posted by Blindside_137

I really wish this was the case. Couldn't a V8 have been made more efficient as well? And using the base of an S65 surely wouldn't have cost too much from a production stand point.

NO. This has been questioned about and whined for the last 2 years.
The S65 is gone. Forever. Dinosaur. It cannot meet modern (fleet) regulations. End of story. Done.

I'm sure it will become a highly praised old-timer

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by Jai 302

The M4 looks sleek and upscale. The M3 looks like a pudgy bulldog.

It does. You say it like that's a bad thing. It's not.

[JoeFromPA]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Note that this car has near identical HP for about the top 2K rpm... So while it is pulling hardest at that time, you will not feel any harder pull at either 5800 or 7200 rpm. They could have used slightly larger turbos to correct this but then someone would have yelled that the engine isn't responsive enough down low and lags and blah blah blah.

Still, I am waiting for Chris Harris because everyone of these reviews is utter junk.

Dude, there's nothing to "correct". That's an amazing design right there. Small turbos, necessary for responsiveness, are going to fall off up top. BMW, by the grace of some amazing engineer, perfectly coordinated the torque fall off with the rise in RPMs so that you can literally have EXACTLY THE SAME POWER ON TAP the entire upper powerband, in every gear, and when switching between gears.

Let me put this another way: When you step into an e90 and upshift from 2nd to 3rd gear, BMW should have "corrected" that significant fall off in power that occurs between gears. It's just a major flaw. Of course, that's what you can expect with 2007 technology.

[Raja Ventureshield]

i am excited about this car. I would love to own a MW, YMB and MG at some point. Maybe i can get one every other year and trade it in for a newer color combo etc.

[IMrMark]

Originally Posted by ASAP

I am waiting for Chris Harris

as others have probably noted you should get that wish soon, he's been tweeting some pics this morning

[JoeFromPA]

Jason/Bimmerpost - I want to critique this review a bit from what I consider to be the leading source on m3 related news. However, I hope you take this critique with sincerity.

The review was 1,352 words long.

Of those, only 371 words are actual DRIVING impressions. The remaining 73% of the review was quotes, tech specs, pricing, interior/exterior impressions. 371 words of driving impression is about three quarters of one page in a standard word document - that's how much impression was deemed appropriate for the first ever Bimmerpost driving review of the f80 m3/m4.

But lets look at the actual content of those impressions,

"we submit that our expectations were not only met, but comfortably exceeded. The extensive under-the-skin changes to the M3 eradicated any suspicion that these cars might turn out to be simply glorified 335i's."
A solid concern and subjective refutation


"On the road, it simply works beautifully, ripping the F8x forward with far more authority than the outgoing E9x models with their 4.0-liter V-8. The new car takes off on a wave of torque and builds speed more quickly than ever. Driven hard in Sport and Sport Plus mode, there is essentially no turbo lag,

The effect lasts for one or two seconds - enough to facilitate an immediate response when the car is driven hard. With this feature, the agility of the S55 is unprecedented for a turbo engine. "

This is so bland, but at least a minor comparison is there to the s65. But that's it? No other comparison? No other detail? Rawness or refinement? Comparison to other BMW products on feel?

our tester pulled relentlessly to 150 mph,

Cool, again, as compared to what? My e39 m5 pulls relentlessly to 150mph. My e60 535xit pulls relentlessly to 130mph. Relentlessly is just an descriptor absent any context or compare. It FEELS like the reviewer just reviews great cars all the time and thus this is just one more great car being reviewed and he doesn't feel the need to compare it against anything in particular

Nevertheless, the six-speed manual still seems to be the truly appropriate choice for the F8x. Especially since this one is significantly lighter than the gearbox used in the predecessor, thus increasing the weight delta between a manual and an automatic M3 and M4 to almost 90 lbs

Error in the data here. It's not a 90 pound difference. But again, why does it seem to be the truly appropriate choice here. Is it just an outstanding manual? Perfect clutch action? No context behind this comment

We are also a bit underwhelmed by the sound. This straight-six is clearly audible and emits a throaty, aggressive note - but this modern soundtrack lacks the silky-smooth refinement of the E36 and E46's naturally aspirated six.

Nicely written.


Not only does it succeed at that, it is nicely weighted and precise - and no, we don't miss the predecessor's hydraulic power steering at all.

Dude, the f30 335i is "nicely weighted and precise" - the concern is that it gives you no feedback as to tire contact patch. Not addressed at all. Considering the level of concern here, this was hugely dissapointing. The only thing we got is that you dont' miss the hydraulic steering - which is a great comment, but no reasons given as to why

This chassis enables the driver to flog the car on the track and position it for corners with absolute precision. Rated at 3530 lbs (M4) and 3540 lbs (M3) lbs, the new car is relatively light - and it feels even lighter from behind the wheel.

Nice comment

This is a forgiving, predictable car - with a clear tendency to oversteer when asked. It simply does everything you want, all the time

Pretty sure I read this about the e46, e90, and 996 Porsche 911, the 997 Porsche 911.....the list goes on. It's practically cliche.

we are glad to report that old-fashioned sportiness is alive and well - and has, in fact, achieved a level of perfection that would have seemed unthinkable a few years ago. The new M3 and M4 prove that electronics have ceased to detract from the driving experience - and now serve to make these cars better and more enjoyable than ever.
This was a nice conclusion, albeit a bit bland.

...

These comments are just my own opinions upon reading this review. I hope they help in some way. Bimmerpost is to me the premiere source of up-to-date information and the work you have done to the m3 has made me a member of this community, without doubt.

After reading the M235i review (quite good) and now the F80/F82 review (bland, lacking context or character) I think this site will really reach another level if the reviews support it.

Thanks for performing this service for the community.