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      05-06-2013, 05:29 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
If Porsche decided to launch a 4 cyl 911...
Next generation 911 "Carrera" is to get a +360 PS turbocharged 4 cylinder boxer.
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      05-06-2013, 05:30 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by ramuman View Post
Efficiency is not one of your principles I take it.
This is still half of the real thing, no mater what marketing says. You will have half of the engine, paying the full price.
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      05-06-2013, 05:45 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
..blah..blah..blah
I suggest to recheck nring lap times before saying about your competitors and M-wellness. Apple still uses google seach engine, so you will have no problems finding correct results.
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      05-06-2013, 07:11 PM   #92
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I get move on it is future thing. If moving on means better things. However, I do not get when things are inferior and you want us to move on.

Saying that the new Porsche electric steering is overall better in new 911 does not make sense when most people that have reviewed the new car have called it not as good as the hydraulic unit. I have not driven the 911 but I would take their word for it.

As for the F30 I have driven multiple different 328i. I have not enjoyed the steering feel or feed back of any single F30 328i over my E92 335i. In F30 the steering lacks the feedback and overall feel that made BMW's special. The steering feels artificial, overly light and numb sort of devoid of fun. This is also true for 5 series and 6 series.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MCoupeInsanity View Post
Not a porsche believer, eh? I've driven each of the last 4 generations of 911 extensively, and the current one with electric steering is... electric! I mean that in a good way. It's damned precise.

Even on my wife's F30, I quickly get over the lack of heft and appreciate the hell out of how precise the steering is. Can't complain. It's the future. Get on board, or keep your old car and keep on grumbling.
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      05-06-2013, 07:16 PM   #93
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+1

Now don't get me wrong I am OK with a 4 cyl turbo engine as long as it sounds great, revs high and has silky smooth delivery. After all it should be an improvement over what you previously had not step backwards.

However, my personal driving experience with the BMW 4 cyl turbo engine has not been pleasant in F30 328i. It doe not evoke emotions like the I6 or V8 or V10. In other words it sounds like garbage and does not rev very high and delivery is not as silky smooth as the previously replaced smaller inline-6. If you are a luxury performance car company at least bring a bit more exciting I4 turbo engine so people would like it and not feel like it is down grade. Ditto goes with the garbage electric steering and stumbling bumbling stop and go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
I think you are confusing selling more, with success
they are not always the same.

if Porsche decided to launch a 4 cyl 911
they will sell more, and someone like you, will think that they are successful
but soon enough, the former buyers of the 6cyl won't buy it anymore since it's gone down-market, and they will move on.

the M brand was successful with the real driver as its market audience
now its focus is the people that just want to show off the M badge (china being a key example)
and soon enough you will realize that this is a fickle bunch.
and once they move on to the latest and greatest from another manufacturer
you will find you also lost the sales to the real drivers that used to buy your products

that is what worries me, but I think BMW is too busy rolling in the money to think like this.

there is such a concept as stretching yourself too thin
there used to be 2 or 3 M models
now there are a lot more
and even more M badged cars
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      05-06-2013, 08:17 PM   #94
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I've owned audi's and BMWs
The one main difference that is immediately noticeable
Is the steering
Any of the BMWs would run rings around the lifeless steering of the audi
With the transition to electric steering, will BMW still have that feel?
I doubt it


I still don't get, technically, why an electric pump would make any difference in the steering vs hydraulic
Unless the electric has a totally different setup
I mean in both cases, isn't the pump just boosting the pressure of the fluid?
Why the change in feel?
I have a feeling what is ruining it, is the variable aspect of it
So your can have the sport, sport plus etc settings
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      05-07-2013, 12:09 AM   #95
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C/D: M5 and M6 are relatively heavy cars. What about the upcoming, more-compact models?

FN: The weight of the M5 and M6 is on a level with the competition. But it is safe to assume that a lightweight approach is at the core of our business, and there will be an unconventional mix of materials where you won’t necessarily expect it.

What i highlighted in red is what really caught my eye, i hate heavy cars as you can tell from my own lemma in my signature. I would rather take a 2800-3000 pound M car with 380hp than a 5000 pound 700 hp M Car. Good for you BMW , looks like they are taking a page from the toyobaru book, faster does not always mean more fun.
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      05-07-2013, 06:05 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
I've owned audi's and BMWs
The one main difference that is immediately noticeable
Is the steering
Any of the BMWs would run rings around the lifeless steering of the audi
With the transition to electric steering, will BMW still have that feel?
I doubt it


I still don't get, technically, why an electric pump would make any difference in the steering vs hydraulic
Unless the electric has a totally different setup
I mean in both cases, isn't the pump just boosting the pressure of the fluid?
Why the change in feel?
I have a feeling what is ruining it, is the variable aspect of it
So your can have the sport, sport plus etc settings
Heres a video showing roughly how the ZF electrical steering works, (BMW M3/4 will use ZF, same as 911):



As you can see theres still a rack and pinion type, meaning the steering wheel is fully mechanically connected to the steering gear/wheels. The el-motor will only assist with power when requiered, getting signal from the torque sensor on the coloumn, (among other sensors such as speed, angle etc).

So what we call feel and feed back from the wheels/tyres will still be transmitted directly and mechanically through the steering coloumn and into your hands. Actually in speeds there is possible to turn of the el-motor completly when power is not necessary, leaving you with a mech steering, wich will be even better than hydr. But this is a matter or tuning by the car maker.

So as you can see of this it should be possible to make the el-steering as good as or even better than hydraulic ones. Just a matter of tuning and set-up. Off course you have the "fly-by-wire" type as well, but this is hopeless, giving you only digital influence and feed-back.

But theres more to steering feel and responciveness than just the type of steering system beeing used, it has to do with the whole setup of the car, weight-distribution, total weights, actuall location of the weights, and the geometry of the cars chassis.

So its possible to have a car with a flawless steering system and still have poor feel. But not vica verca F10 M5 has an hydraulic steering, not el. as one guy claims earlier in this thread. Still it has got some critizism for bad steering, I blame this on the heavy weight etc, not easy to get a good and sporty steering out of a almost 2Tonne car. Have`nt driven it myself though..

Anyway, I dont think its right to banish the el. power steering just because its called electrical, as you can see there are several differnt types and we just have to wait and see whats what before we judge it.
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      05-07-2013, 07:20 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
I still don't get, technically, why an electric pump would make any difference in the steering vs hydraulic
Unless the electric has a totally different setup
I mean in both cases, isn't the pump just boosting the pressure of the fluid?
Why the change in feel?
That is one way to do it, but I think typically "electric steering" colloquially refers to the non-hydraulic type where the motor actually assists in moving the steering linkage itself. I believe that this how BMWs electric steering works. Their Servotronic works more like how you describe, but it is being phased out now for true electric assist.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_steering

Edit: Didn't see above response - had loaded page and stepped away before replying.
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      05-07-2013, 07:27 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
M is not dead if anything it is thriving and progressing more than before.
Our competitors stretch the horsepower war because they are only interested in the numbers, there is more , a lot more to a performance car than just the numbers. Numbers might entice but for M the same thing matters over and over and that is progress , progress in balance , progress in dynamics , progress in precision.

The benchmark for the M3 and M4 electric steering is the car that has cracked it and that is the Porsche 911 991 series, and that is the level the M developed and engineered electric steering rack are working to so that overall driver communication is not lost.
The engine may be based on an N55 but it has been extensively reworked for application on an M vehicle and there will effectively be three M models receiving this engine along with their respective variants - M3 , M4 and X4M.

A three cylinder BMW might sound unthinkable but it is very much a reality.
Although nothing is final there could be an M Performance variant of the forthcoming BMW City Compact FWD car or even a high performance MINI.
Its all right what you says, I could live with an electric steering in an M, if it is done in the right way ... and this meen, if it make the performace of the car better.
Also an high performance I3 could be an nice solution for an small and really light sportscar.

But my greates concern is this part of the interview in which Dr.Nitschke for the first time seem to say the (bad!) truth :
Quote:
Car and Driver: The current M3 was fitted with a unique M engine. Will future vehicles be derived from existing BMW engines, or will you continue to afford yourself the luxury of bespoke M engines, like the naturally aspirated V-8 and V-10?

Friedrich Nitschke: At the core of their architecture, our engines will be closer to BMW AG engines. But they will be optimized for the specific needs of M customers, so we can still essentially speak of standalone engines.
For me this marked words meen ... only optimized/modified AG engines ... modified only to this mark were they comply with the M coustomers need (defined by BMW?) ... and because the new M3/M4 would be much lighter and gets an superior chassis there ist no need for an better engine as the cheapest one ... and only the marketing branch could/would define them as standalone engines .. the same way they define the !m engine as special M engine.

I am not an fan of hp-wars ... an lighter car would for me more importent than much more hp ... but that doesn´t meen that it was acceptable for me if they choose only the cheapest possible engine that comply with the minimum hp-needs.

Greets Uli_HH
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      05-07-2013, 10:04 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inge_F View Post
Heres a video showing roughly how the ZF electrical steering works, (BMW M3/4 will use ZF, same as 911):



As you can see theres still a rack and pinion type, meaning the steering wheel is fully mechanically connected to the steering gear/wheels. The el-motor will only assist with power when requiered, getting signal from the torque sensor on the coloumn, (among other sensors such as speed, angle etc).

So what we call feel and feed back from the wheels/tyres will still be transmitted directly and mechanically through the steering coloumn and into your hands. Actually in speeds there is possible to turn of the el-motor completly when power is not necessary, leaving you with a mech steering, wich will be even better than hydr. But this is a matter or tuning by the car maker.

So as you can see of this it should be possible to make the el-steering as good as or even better than hydraulic ones. Just a matter of tuning and set-up. Off course you have the "fly-by-wire" type as well, but this is hopeless, giving you only digital influence and feed-back.

But theres more to steering feel and responciveness than just the type of steering system beeing used, it has to do with the whole setup of the car, weight-distribution, total weights, actuall location of the weights, and the geometry of the cars chassis.

So its possible to have a car with a flawless steering system and still have poor feel. But not vica verca F10 M5 has an hydraulic steering, not el. as one guy claims earlier in this thread. Still it has got some critizism for bad steering, I blame this on the heavy weight etc, not easy to get a good and sporty steering out of a almost 2Tonne car. Have`nt driven it myself though..

Anyway, I dont think its right to banish the el. power steering just because its called electrical, as you can see there are several differnt types and we just have to wait and see whats what before we judge it.

thank you
that video was very good

so maybe the current crop of engineers are still in the learning stage
you know when you get something new, and you are showing it off and have no clue how to use it?

we have the electric power steering on my wifes X3
and it is the worst thing about the car
nothing is worse than taking a tightening curve, only to realize that your power assistance ratio has changed mid corner
so what you thought was the right amount of steering movement
now becomes too much and you have to dial it back
very unsettling for such a heavy car

I wonder how easy it is to pull the fuse of the electric power steering motor
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      05-07-2013, 10:06 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
That is one way to do it, but I think typically "electric steering" colloquially refers to the non-hydraulic type where the motor actually assists in moving the steering linkage itself. I believe that this how BMWs electric steering works. Their Servotronic works more like how you describe, but it is being phased out now for true electric assist.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_steering

Edit: Didn't see above response - had loaded page and stepped away before replying.
I wonder why they don't have a clutch on the power steering pump
similar to your A/C compressor?
because the negative of hydraulic power steering is there is a constant draw on the engine to spin the power steering pump, even when no assistance is needed.
if you have a clutch, you would only engage it as lower speeds (parking etc)
and disengage it at higher speeds
there by increasing efficiency, without having audi-like lifeless steering
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      05-07-2013, 11:07 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
I think you are confusing selling more, with success
they are not always the same.

if Porsche decided to launch a 4 cyl 911
they will sell more, and someone like you, will think that they are successful
but soon enough, the former buyers of the 6cyl won't buy it anymore since it's gone down-market, and they will move on.


the M brand was successful with the real driver as its market audience
now its focus is the people that just want to show off the M badge (china being a key example)
and soon enough you will realize that this is a fickle bunch.
and once they move on to the latest and greatest from another manufacturer
you will find you also lost the sales to the real drivers that used to buy your products

that is what worries me, but I think BMW is too busy rolling in the money to think like this.

there is such a concept as stretching yourself too thin
there used to be 2 or 3 M models
now there are a lot more
and even more M badged cars
Really? Get over it! Porsche makes V6 Cayenne diesels for pete's sake. They are also coming out with an X4 competitor as well. How "pure" do you really think they are? Or should they still only be making air cooled 911's offered in 3 colors? FYI, I love Porsche and would still gladly buy one (if I had the $)

Heck, Ferrari now has the FF, there's talk about Lamborghini coming out with an SUV (although that's nothing new), Pagani going turbocharged, Aston Martin makes a Toyota IQ clone ect... my point is, who the hell cares? Are people really naive enough to think that this is only happening to 1 company?

If there's still a car that you like (even if the company makes a high performance SUV, oh no!!), then great! I for one am looking forward to the M2.
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      05-07-2013, 12:29 PM   #102
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Quote:
I wonder how easy it is to pull the fuse of the electric power steering motor
Please try it and let me know how it works out!

p.s. Long live "Overdose"
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      05-07-2013, 01:02 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W/// View Post
Heck, Ferrari now has the FF, there's talk about Lamborghini coming out with an SUV (although that's nothing new), Pagani going turbocharged, Aston Martin makes a Toyota IQ clone ect... my point is, who the hell cares? Are people really naive enough to think that this is only happening to 1 company?
.
no
but when your motto is "the ultimate driving machine"
you really should be held to a higher standard
ultimate does not include a turbo 3 cyl with M badges and electric steering

I have nothing against the M2, when it comes out
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      05-07-2013, 01:14 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Although nothing is final there could be an M Performance variant of the forthcoming BMW City Compact FWD car or even a high performance MINI.
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      05-07-2013, 01:28 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
+1

Now don't get me wrong I am OK with a 4 cyl turbo engine as long as it sounds great, revs high and has silky smooth delivery. After all it should be an improvement over what you previously had not step backwards.

However, my personal driving experience with the BMW 4 cyl turbo engine has not been pleasant in F30 328i. It doe not evoke emotions like the I6 or V8 or V10. In other words it sounds like garbage and does not rev very high and delivery is not as silky smooth as the previously replaced smaller inline-6. If you are a luxury performance car company at least bring a bit more exciting I4 turbo engine so people would like it and not feel like it is down grade. Ditto goes with the garbage electric steering and stumbling bumbling stop and go.
I couldn't agree more. Sure the N20 makes more HP/TQ and gets better MPG compared to its I6 equivalent, but the engine has characteristics that don't belong in a luxury vehicle. Not only does it sounds like a diesel with 200,000 miles, but it has tremendous vibration issues. It's also the furthest thing from smooth power delivery. While stopped, its frankly embarrassing to have the engine vibrate the entire chassis, along with your passengers, because of poor engine balance. I didn't need the power of the N55, but in retrospect I should have chosen it just to avoid these issues.
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      05-08-2013, 07:35 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
thank you
that video was very good

so maybe the current crop of engineers are still in the learning stage
you know when you get something new, and you are showing it off and have no clue how to use it?

we have the electric power steering on my wifes X3
and it is the worst thing about the car
nothing is worse than taking a tightening curve, only to realize that your power assistance ratio has changed mid corner
so what you thought was the right amount of steering movement
now becomes too much and you have to dial it back
very unsettling for such a heavy car

I wonder how easy it is to pull the fuse of the electric power steering motor
Does your wife's car have the active steering package? Because what you just described is a change in ratio, not assistance. Or something wrong with your steering.

1. Electric steering does not vary assist mid-corner.
2. Varying assist would not cause you to have to re-evaluate your steering input.

Or perhaps the X3 has a variable ratio rack that you're not used to? Dunno, but that's not simply down to EPS, that's for sure.
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      05-08-2013, 11:12 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
Does your wife's car have the active steering package? Because what you just described is a change in ratio, not assistance. Or something wrong with your steering.

1. Electric steering does not vary assist mid-corner.
2. Varying assist would not cause you to have to re-evaluate your steering input.

Or perhaps the X3 has a variable ratio rack that you're not used to? Dunno, but that's not simply down to EPS, that's for sure.
but if the assistance rate changes
for the same steering input, the car would turn more or less if the assistance rate changes no?
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      05-08-2013, 11:14 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
no
but when your motto is "the ultimate driving machine"
you really should be held to a higher standard
ultimate does not include a turbo 3 cyl with M badges and electric steering

I have nothing against the M2, when it comes out
Again, Porsche = "There is no substitute"... for a V6 Cayenne diesel? Sure there is. I know you do't like 911s, but how come you don't hold THEM to a higher standard? Even though they are a sports car company first, family car second.

I'm just calling it as I see it, that's all.

Personally, I couldn't care less that they have the Cayenne and the ridiculous Panamera (hate the way they look), I'd hop in ANY 991 or Cayman any day.
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      05-08-2013, 02:28 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
I call big, huge BS on this one
show me one car that has electric power steering that is anything like hydraulic steering

the car companies love it because its more efficient
so it saves them 1-2 mpg or something
but to say it's "on par" is either a blatant lie, or you know nothing about cars
Porsche 911.
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      05-08-2013, 03:55 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing View Post
Porsche 911.
I assume you have not read a single review of the new 911 then?
all the ones I have seen all mentioned how the steering on the new one
is not as good as it used to be
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