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      10-30-2014, 02:35 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
It's a trick... i am 99% sure that they hand out the lightest base level cars with the CCB's, DCT and passive suspension. They know that setup will probably perform best due to weight and be easiest to setup and drive fast.
I agree with this, that car even had cloth interior. Nobody would ever option a car this way.

Having said that RCF is just too heavy for what it is and it's interior space is lacking big time.
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      10-30-2014, 03:28 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by trinim3 View Post
You can believe that load of BS if you want. The reality is that the M4 gets 17city/24hwy (with DCT) while the RC F gets 16city/25hwy. So the M4 has 2 fewer cylinders, smaller displacement, has two turbos and weighs 400lbs less but barely gets any better gas mileage?

Let's be real. BMW put a twin turbo i6 and dropped the V8 because it's cheaper to share an engine with the rest of the 3/4 series lineup. I ain't mad but I'm also not confused about what's really going on.
OK, let's indeed be real then. I agree, it sure is cheaper.

I think we can all agree that BMW has the engineering pedigree to have been able to take an engine like the S65B44, and made it more fuel efficient, perhaps even more powerful. It can and could have been done.

However, that R&D, engineering, testing, manufacturing and fabrication come at a cost. Trying to squeeze out more power with less emissions from a NA motor is too costly considering the marginal improvements. Tangible returns on investment pail in comparison to alternative approaches, e.g., forced induction.

This brings us to a point that is so obvious, but seems to escape some. The overarching role of an engine, is to convert energy into mechanical motion as efficiently as possibly and in a way (curve) that works in harmony with the rest of the car, not provide an intangible, emotional value to your experience. The fact that NA engines do, is a mix of both nostalgia and the bi-product of unrestricted induction and exhaust, not an engineering objective.

Lastly, if BMW had taken that route, I think we'd pretty much be looking at (minus the looks) a BMW RC 3/4. A lovely, sonorous, high-powered V8 with great efficiency to match. But, that cost would come at a great expense and the budget to engineer your way to reduce weight, use CFRP, introduce CCB, etc. would have suffered significantly. We'd be looking at the same unfortunate trend, M cars still getting heavier and heavier over their predecessors. Instead we have a vehicle that beats the RC F in every single performance metric, except one, that almighty intangible benefit of sound.

If sound is really that big of a deal for you guys, pick up a worked B18C or F20C or any other number of engines. My S65 had nothing on these little motors in terms of visceral, mechanical, screaming sound. All hell breaks loose when that second set of cam lobes engage.

Despite all of the negativity regarding BMW's decision to use a TT I6, I have yet to see someone lay out an alternative engine platform that would have met performance & emission requirements while simultaneously keeping the weight reduction initiative intact without a significant increase in MSRP.

Finally, I'll say this. The complexities of the global economy, markets, commodities, currencies, OTC derivatives market, future emission requirements, laws, regulations, and the fact that the United States in headed into a very significant, long-term recession, has a significant invisible-hand at the drawing board for current and future BMWs. BMW is already selling more cars in China than the US, and despite the misnomer that seems to exist, China's government is VERY strict regarding emissions because the matter has become a threat to State security. It's a complicated world -- emerging markets and the laws, emission restrictions, demographics and growth prospects that reside within, will continue to have a greater impact on vehicle design/implementation than what gets it around the Nurburgring the fastest. Capitalism couldn't could care less if the car sounded like a Dyson, so long as it adds to the companies financial integrity, and it will only get worse. It's the cycle of capitalism, a systemic race to the bottom chasing profits, until you are left with a car museum of what made you great in the first place.

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      10-30-2014, 03:33 PM   #91
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I'm not sure I like Carlos as a dude too much. He's a bit arrogant and thinks a bit too highly of himself and his driving abilities. He's no Chris Harris. In word or deed.
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      10-30-2014, 05:03 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by dkhm3 View Post
Ok, it sounds pretty good, much better than the m3/m4- and RC F will be more reliable.

Other than that, I think that's it. for me, it looks really really ugly.

It is disappointing that Lexus follows up the IS F with this car. I am not sure the F brand has an identity. i.e. AUDI Quattro, Merc v8's, BMW chassis balance.
There will be an IS-F. Apparently, they decided to release the coupe first. And in true Lexus fashion, release the IS-F years later, lol.
There is also the GS-F coming out, and nobody yet knows how much hp it is coming with, or it's weight. I'll say this, if the IS-F or the GS-F is a porker like this RC-F, then they will suffer.

Also, an interesting sidenote, is that apparently, the CF hood and deck lid for the RC-F will not be available for the US market, Lexus' largest market. With those CF parts, at least a few pounds could be shed.

Also, the Predator/Norelco grille---it's a love it or hate it design. Like Audi's Horse collar grilles. At least it cannot be said that Lexus design is boring anymore.
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      10-30-2014, 06:40 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by IS3andME View Post
There will be an IS-F. Apparently, they decided to release the coupe first. And in true Lexus fashion, release the IS-F years later, lol.
There is also the GS-F coming out, and nobody yet knows how much hp it is coming with, or it's weight. I'll say this, if the IS-F or the GS-F is a porker like this RC-F, then they will suffer.

Also, an interesting sidenote, is that apparently, the CF hood and deck lid for the RC-F will not be available for the US market, Lexus' largest market. With those CF parts, at least a few pounds could be shed.

Also, the Predator/Norelco grille---it's a love it or hate it design. Like Audi's Horse collar grilles. At least it cannot be said that Lexus design is boring anymore.
That is definitely true. I liked the previous IS F and test drove it. just could not love it enough to buy it.
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      10-30-2014, 07:16 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
I agree on the sound, its ok. But not on the driving characteristics. Comparing this engine to a v6 camry commuter car is absurd.

Drive one on track, or in an aggressive situation. It pulls hard in a linear manner and shows no drop off at redline.

Its got plenty of character and performance. This car is a blast on track, and the engine is a big reason why.
I'm not comparing the M4 to a Camry (obviously), I'm pointing out that simply delivering performance suitable for the role is not enough. The point is that for cars of other classes, that is ok. For sports cars, it is not.

(in my opinion, of course)
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      10-30-2014, 08:22 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Think more about the setup... the passive is optimally setup from the factory. The active needs to be set correctly... what one may think is better here may actually be worse in reality.
I think you are very wrong on this... have you read the views of the people who actually know about and understand suspensions and their views on the adaptive suspension. My bet is the car is slower by a margin on a rough track with the passive suspension.
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      10-30-2014, 09:48 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by sonicgrounds View Post
I'm not sure I like Carlos as a dude too much. He's a bit arrogant and thinks a bit too highly of himself and his driving abilities. He's no Chris Harris. In word or deed.
Care to share where you got that impression from?

Anyhow, since when is Chris Harris the standard by which to judge all other auto journalists? Every journalist is different and has his/her own style. No need to bash them for being original and doing their own thing.

I like Harris' stuff, mostly because his witty presentation skills seem to draw the audience into the driving experience.

Carlos has his own way of presenting material but also has bit of an analytical perspective on the cars and how they work, which I also like.

His personal video on the M3/M4 was very interesting and in-depth.

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      10-31-2014, 12:14 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by zer0cool View Post
I ll watch this video when I get the chance.

Seeing the responses, definitely many BMW fans here. I am also a BMW fan, but not a superfan I guess...

I think looks are totally subjective, and I like Lexus IS/RC looks way more than BMW 3/4. Also based on experience (I owned a Lexus GS Fsport for a year or so, and drove multiple Lexuses during maintenance etc), Lexus interior quality and feel > BMW (this is true at every class level). Both my wife and I now drive BMWs, so we love BMW, but I just objectively cannot say BMW > Lexus in quality... It is clearly the other way around. Also Lexus >> BMW in comfort in every way.

Is that why the knobs and the shift lever lights look like they came from a Toyota? What I cannot stand about Lexus is their inability to not make me think I'm in a fluffed up Toyota when I get inside. When I get inside of a Lexus, that is all I see.... And it's the little things for me.

The gear shift indicator, the buttons on the stereo, wheel, or anywhere else are all subpar, the power seat lever, the navigation system... The plastic looking steering wheel and wood inserts. The fit and finish inside just doesn't do it for me.


I actually don't mind how some look on the outside, I think that's okay.
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      10-31-2014, 12:22 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
Care to share where you got that impression from?

Anyhow, since when is Chris Harris the standard by which to judge all other auto journalists? Every journalist is different and has his/her own style. No need to bash them for being original and doing their own thing.

I like Harris' stuff, mostly because his witty presentation skills seem to draw the audience into the driving experience.

Carlos has his own way of presenting material but also has bit of an analytical perspective on the cars and how they work, which I also like.

His personal video on the M3/M4 was very interesting and in-depth.

Very cool...where did you find that video? I'll have to watch it in installments given the length and I'm looking forward to it! I'm not an auto journalist expert; I appreciated Harris' work with Evo before he left and thus have followed some of his articles/videos. Likewise, I can't remember when I first read an article or saw a video from Lago, but I think his commentary is without (as much as humanly possible!) bias and spot on.
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      10-31-2014, 04:11 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
Care to share where you got that impression from?

Anyhow, since when is Chris Harris the standard by which to judge all other auto journalists? Every journalist is different and has his/her own style. No need to bash them for being original and doing their own thing.

I like Harris' stuff, mostly because his witty presentation skills seem to draw the audience into the driving experience.

Carlos has his own way of presenting material but also has bit of an analytical perspective on the cars and how they work, which I also like.

His personal video on the M3/M4 was very interesting and in-depth.
Thank you for this!
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      10-31-2014, 06:58 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by KevinM View Post
Very cool...where did you find that video?
I was browsing for m4 reviews on youtube and found it. Essentially Carlos has his own channel on youtube, separate from Motor Trend. If you search by his full name, you should be able to find his channel.

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Thank you for this!
No problem.
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      10-31-2014, 07:54 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by gthal
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Think more about the setup... the passive is optimally setup from the factory. The active needs to be set correctly... what one may think is better here may actually be worse in reality.
I think you are very wrong on this... have you read the views of the people who actually know about and understand suspensions and their views on the adaptive suspension. My bet is the car is slower by a margin on a rough track with the passive suspension.
Then why would BMW offer a car for a test with a suspension that was subpar to another when they know it matters?
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      10-31-2014, 08:05 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Then why would BMW offer a car for a test with a suspension that was subpar to another when they know it matters?
They give press cars out all of the time with weird options that don't make sense. Sometimes it would depend on what cars they had available. There have been many times I have thought to myself that the car a manufacturer sent for a test made little sense. Every review (including Lieberman who drove both suspensions) I have read suggests the adaptive suspension is far better over rougher pavement in terms of keeping the car planted and the wheels on the road and this would have made a difference in lap time in this test. On a smooth, flat track maybe the difference is negligible.
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      10-31-2014, 08:34 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Vectors2final View Post
Is that why the knobs and the shift lever lights look like they came from a Toyota? What I cannot stand about Lexus is their inability to not make me think I'm in a fluffed up Toyota when I get inside. When I get inside of a Lexus, that is all I see.... And it's the little things for me.

The gear shift indicator, the buttons on the stereo, wheel, or anywhere else are all subpar, the power seat lever, the navigation system... The plastic looking steering wheel and wood inserts. The fit and finish inside just doesn't do it for me.


I actually don't mind how some look on the outside, I think that's okay.
I owned 2 RX300's, 1 GS400 and 1 IS-350, don't get me wrong here, all were great cars, but no better that any of many Toyota's I own many years ago, maybe in countries like USA with great streets and good fuel's is difficult to get into trouble in terms of body noise, loose feel suspension after some miles on it, etc, so from my experience Lexus is just an overpriced Toyota at least on the daily driving models
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      10-31-2014, 08:38 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Then why would BMW offer a car for a test with a suspension that was subpar to another when they know it matters?
They give press cars out all of the time with weird options that don't make sense. Sometimes it would depend on what cars they had available. There have been many times I have thought to myself that the car a manufacturer sent for a test made little sense. Every review (including Lieberman who drove both suspensions) I have read suggests the adaptive suspension is far better over rougher pavement in terms of keeping the car planted and the wheels on the road and this would have made a difference in lap time in this test. On a smooth, flat track maybe the difference is negligible.
FYI, it seems like most press test cars have had cloth, passive susp and ccb's. Look at both Lago comparos, the mid ohio comparo and now this. I can't explain but it seems to be the case... seems like the guys that are doing the road tests receive the adap susp cars and the guys doing the track tests, get the passive... This solely based on my observation of videos.
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      10-31-2014, 08:41 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Then why would BMW offer a car for a test with a suspension that was subpar to another when they know it matters?
you should re-read what I posted on how adaptive suspension works and why its better

honestly, its not an opinion, its a fact.

like gthal said, they give cars with all sorts of options to different tests. you could also say why would they include a cloth interior when being reviewed against another car? negligible weight loss and a lower quality interior.

this isn't Ferrari, who custom tunes their press cars and brings their own pit crew to accompany each test car
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      10-31-2014, 08:46 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Then why would BMW offer a car for a test with a suspension that was subpar to another when they know it matters?
you should re-read what I posted on how adaptive suspension works and why its better

honestly, its not an opinion, its a fact.

like gthal said, they give cars with all sorts of options to different tests. you could also say why would they include a cloth interior when being reviewed against another car? negligible weight loss and a lower quality interior.

this isn't Ferrari, who custom tunes their press cars and brings their own pit crew to accompany each test car
Do you think I disagree with you? You are coming off that way for some reason. My only question is why would BMW not offer test cars that are best setup for track tests when they know it matters so much? A company like BMW knows very well whats best for them... or maybe just maybe, they believe that the standard suspension is near identical in performance...
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      10-31-2014, 09:02 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Do you think I disagree with you? You are coming off that way for some reason. My only question is why would BMW not offer test cars that are best setup for track tests when they know it matters so much? A company like BMW knows very well whats best for them... or maybe just maybe, they believe that the standard suspension is near identical in performance...
they have offered cars with this suspension and without to various different tests. there have been plenty of track tests done prior to this by MT. tons of euro mags and more importantly, MT best drivers car which had adaptive.

there is no conspiracy theory here.
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      10-31-2014, 09:52 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
I'm not comparing the M4 to a Camry (obviously), I'm pointing out that simply delivering performance suitable for the role is not enough. The point is that for cars of other classes, that is ok. For sports cars, it is not.

(in my opinion, of course)
the GTR has a v6 and pretty much crushes competition, esp cars with v-12's for 3 times the price.

personally I care more about performance than sound. sound is the cherry on top, but not the main course. The car runs cleaner, more efficient and faster. that's pretty great.
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      10-31-2014, 10:08 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by dondula View Post
the GTR has a v6 and pretty much crushes competition, esp cars with v-12's for 3 times the price.

personally I care more about performance than sound. sound is the cherry on top, but not the main course. The car runs cleaner, more efficient and faster. that's pretty great.
And that's not mentioning the other dominant performer, the 6cyl 991TT.
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      10-31-2014, 12:25 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffM-Houston View Post
What exactly does the S55 share with other BMW engines?

Compare it to say the N55 3.0:

The S55 bore is larger, the stroke is shorter, a closed deck block design, arc sprayed cylinder walls vs. liners. I guess maybe the AC unit is the same? But I don't even know that for sure.
SORRY, but this is absolutely nonsense !!!

The main benefit for BMW is that the S55 could be produced in the same production plant like all other BMW I6s ... that saved compared with the unique S65, which was produced in the special "Sondermotorenbau" in Munich, 50% of the engine production costs !
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