F80 M3 vs. E30 M3 DTM Around Hockenheim (Sport Auto Video)

[Savory]

Light car+slick tires and short gearing get you this result! E30 DTM was never a slouch, especially on technical circuits. Similarly, I remember the ZR-1 clocking a slower lap to a 1963 Lotus 49 F1 around Circuit of Americas. Stripped out, purpose built race cars will always have an upper hand.

[M3 n X5M]

The apples to oranges comparison is valuable. Despite some folks getting unsettled here, we learn a lot.

These results show where the new M3 stands against a dedicated DTM car of 22 years ago. And the results are quite good.

In a short course probably where the M3 DTM did it's best against the competition, the new M3 can in many ways, keep up. The driver could do better on the F80, but that is not critical to drawing conclusions.

Stock to stock etc., are all other very good comparison suggestions here. However, this one result, shows how the M division is essentially releasing a Motorsport car at production in 2014.

It also seems to me the driver was intentionally applying his inputs as he did on the E30 to make a point at how the F80 actually over steers and enters turns differently, but yet manages a respectable time in stock form.

[schlichtm3]

For the Record - both cars was driven by the same Driver - Christian Gebhardt.
And he also know how to drive. He was starting @ 24h Race at Nürburgring and also VLN etc. Click (sorry only in german).

[z19930612]

F80 seems very likely to under steer :/

[n14ssv]

i guess f80 driver wasn't driving it at its potential

[clbmw]

Watching the E30, to me, this is exactly why the 1 and 2 series and forthcoming M2 need to stay RWD, not grow in size, and lose weight next generation.

The E30 M3 was my dream car as a kid and watching the DTM version is breathtaking; the F80 is lovely and I would love one, but it appears lacking in so many ways compared to that E30.

I know which I'd take home

[M3 n X5M]

Facts:
1) same driver.
2) similar inputs in both drives...
3) DTM car is... A DTM car. Period.
4) F80 is stock sedan/saloon.
5) video shows the F80 is remarkably close to a very light race car around a tight track.
6) The F80 has insulation, airbags, comfortable seats for every occupant, radio, electronics, airbags, trunk liner, AC, more electronics, street tires, tough wheels to withstand road imperfections etc etc.
7) it is a great comparison and people should accept the older race car is still faster.
8) the F80 is not a LaFerrari or a mclaren. So, it is ok if it is slower.

[M3 n X5M]

Originally Posted by clbmw

Watching the E30, to me, this is exactly why the 1 and 2 series and forthcoming M2 need to stay RWD, not grow in size, and lose weight next generation.

The E30 M3 was my dream car as a kid and watching the DTM version is breathtaking; the F80 is lovely and I would love one, but it appears lacking in so many ways compared to that E30.

I know which I'd take home

It will be largely unreasonable to expect such a light car again, from BMW. With all the safety and comfort features this market segment is expecting, an E30-like auto cannot be achieved.

There are very few cars under 3000 lbs, by any manufacturer, and most BMW consumers today would find those cars unsafe and unwanted. Under 3000 lbs is sub-compact territory.

BMW would probably steer away from this scenario for liability considerations alone.

[clbmw]

Originally Posted by M3 n X5M

It will be largely unreasonable to expect such a light car again, from BMW. With all the safety and comfort features this market segment is expecting, an E30-like auto cannot be achieved.

There are very few cars under 3000 lbs, by any manufacturer, and most BMW consumers today would find those cars unsafe and unwanted. Under 3000 lbs is sub-compact territory.

BMW would probably steer away from this scenario for liability considerations alone.

I'd agree with you that would be an unrealistic target, however BMW have consistently grown and made heavier each generation of car excepting the new M3. Time to stop doing that as routine is what I'm saying. Bigger is not better.

[GoKimiGo!]

Different drivers... with the same exact helmet, lol. He was trying to follow the same lines in the F80 but that extra mass is always going to push a car wide. The E30 being DTM is also most likely on semi slicks. With less weight, track tuned suspension and better rubber the E30 is able to brake later and carry more pace through the corners. The F80 does an admirable job for a car you could drive daily and makes use of its power advantage on the long straights.

[Soul_Glo]

E30 was on a weight loss diet too. F80 looked like the full interior was still there!

[schmitzna]

Single biggest factor in lap times == tires. Tires are easily worth 2-3 seconds a lap, maybe more with all the turns that short circuit has.

[clbmw]

Originally Posted by clbmw

I'd agree with you that would be an unrealistic target, however BMW have consistently grown and made heavier each generation of car excepting the new M3. Time to stop doing that as routine is what I'm saying. Bigger is not better.

Oh and just to be awkward didn't Alfa Romeo just release a 2200 pound 4C sports car? Rumours are that a 300 BHP engine may also make it to that car.

[Black Gold]

Yeah I don't think anyone is surprised the race car is quicker.

I just noticed that the lap in the f80 was sloppy and some lines were not taken very well. IMO much of that understeer and oversteer was due to poor lines and just likely having zero experience with driving that car. No doubt the driver could have improved a ton with more laps in the f80

[qbix]

Compare 991 GT3 to 996 Cup lap times and try to find out yourself how a modern sports car should be done.
Next generation 3 series will be even bigger and for sure heavier (for its hybrid architecture) but the fun boys will again admit that sh$@ is chocolate.
Not trying to say that f80 is worse than the e90. The direction of M cars is very wrong.

[Sean@PSI]

DTM E30 M3s FTMFW always...

[chiplee]

Geez, I'm no race car driver but I'm surprised to hear it's the same driver. It just seems like he apexes every turn perfectly in the DTM and then picks a crap line in the F80. Gear selection seems off in the F80, too. I don't know. Cool vid though.

[SakhirM4]

Why not compare apples to apples and run an M4 DTM against the E30 M3 DTM. That would be a better comparison. How can anyone compare a racecar to a streetcar?

Or could compare a street E30 M3 to an F8x.

More interesting comparisons.

Just to be factual - they were NOT driven by the same driver.
"Behind the wheel of the E30 M3 DTM racing car was Johnny Cecotto while driving the F80 M3 was Sport Auto’s Christian Gebhardt."

[chiplee]

Originally Posted by gmcconn535

they were NOT driven by the same driver.
"Behind the wheel of the E30 M3 DTM racing car was Johnny Cecotto while driving the F80 M3 was Sport Auto’s Christian Gebhardt."

Excellent. That makes so much more sense given the way the cars were driven.

[3s-a-charm]

Originally Posted by schlichtm3

For the Record - both cars was driven by the same Driver - Christian Gebhardt.
And he also know how to drive. He was starting @ 24h Race at Nrburgring and also VLN etc. Click (sorry only in german).

Wow! Really?!?! That comes as a huge surprise to me as the F80 driving looked so poor.

I guess he could have used more seat-time in the new M3 to familiarize himself with the added weight and perfect the lines - you can tell he's had that DTM around the track more than a few times!

[chiplee]

Originally Posted by 3s-a-charm

Wow! Really?!?! That comes as a huge surprise to me as the F80 driving looked so poor.

I guess he could have used more seat-time in the new M3 to familiarize himself with the added weight and perfect the lines - you can tell he's had that DTM around the track more than a few times!

See post #64.

[3s-a-charm]

Originally Posted by M3 n X5M

It will be largely unreasonable to expect such a light car again, from BMW. With all the safety and comfort features this market segment is expecting, an E30-like auto cannot be achieved.

There are very few cars under 3000 lbs, by any manufacturer, and most BMW consumers today would find those cars unsafe and unwanted. Under 3000 lbs is sub-compact territory.

BMW would probably steer away from this scenario for liability considerations alone.

The 1M was a good indicator that the NA market would absolutely go bonkers over a true M3 CSL now. If ever there was a time to consider reviving the CSL after teasing with the superb GTS - it's now.