Autotalent
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Forum > BMW M3 (F80) and BMW M4 (F82) General Forum

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      03-13-2012, 05:46 PM   #89
BMW269
Brigadier General
No_Country
431
Rep
3,888
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Germany

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aajami View Post
I chose my words carefully, Levi There's an ironic subtlety to the sarcasm that is perhaps lost in translation.
I got it now.
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2012, 06:08 PM   #90
mkoesel
Moderator
United_States
7506
Rep
19,370
Posts

Drives: No BMW for now
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aajami View Post
I read a lot of people bickering about what the badge will say (and I've certainly added my voice to those calls in the past), but no one seems to mind the real, physical implication of all of this: the inevitable increase in price that the F32 and F82 will get over the F30 and F80.
True, although, as I am sure you know, it is been this way from the very beginning; each successive generation comes with a substantial price increase over the outgoing model. Of course, this happens with all cars - not just BMWs, not just Ms, not just M3s. Having said that, we have seen recently with the F10 5 series that sometimes that trend gets bucked. The new 3 series also sees only a very small increase from the E90, though the new "lines" and the fact that you cannot get a base car with a lot of the options they include make that something of a technicality.

Quote:
One of the primary motivating factors for BMW to split up the 3-series into two separate models is to insert a little market segmentation into the mix. It's not the introduction of the M Performance models that make the M4 less attainable -- it's the introduction of what is intended to be perceived as an upmarket model. After all, everyone knows that 4 is more than 3, right?
I completely agree, aa. At the same time, they are only doing what Mercedes has done long ago (though they now appear to be reverting), and Audi has done more recently.

Quote:
The M Performance models simply become the consolation prize for those that could have made their finances work for a previous generation M car, but now have to settle for something they can afford given that the market segment they used to be in has moved up a notch or two.
I somewhat agree, but at the same time I would say that anyone who is planning ahead for a next generation car - whatever car - should figure 10% to 15% more than today's price to be safe. It's just good sense.
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2012, 06:10 PM   #91
mkoesel
Moderator
United_States
7506
Rep
19,370
Posts

Drives: No BMW for now
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hlmiii View Post
Right on.

The name doesn't hit the apex perfectly. The design and execution do.
I would say its the driver. Hans Stuck will decimate all of us in our M3s, while driving a Fiat MPV. Car makes it much more fun and rewarding though!
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2012, 06:16 PM   #92
car_fan
Major
car_fan's Avatar
380
Rep
1,170
Posts

Drives: 2020 F97 X3M
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: SoFla/ATL

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2020 BMW X3M  [0.00]
  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by aajami View Post
What.


Still a very good looking car - this ^
__________________
2011 MINI CooperS BRGII/Lounge Green/Sport/Prem/Connect/Black Xenon/Black Conical Spokes/ACS springs/ACS exhaust/Alta Shorty/Yokohama Advan Sport A/S
2012 M3 AW/FR NDH2/2MK/ZPP/ZCP/ZCW/752/6NR/OEM CF splitters/OEM CF Mirror caps (retired)
2012 X3 35i Titanium Silver/Black ZAP/ZPP/TECH/APPS/Breyton GTS (retired)
2018 X3 M40i BSM/Oyster/ZPP/ZPX/HK/S6CPA/718M(retired)
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2012, 07:08 PM   #93
aajami
Brigadier General
aajami's Avatar
United_States
430
Rep
4,567
Posts

Drives: Space Gray '09 E92 M3
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post

I completely agree, aa. At the same time, they are only doing what Mercedes has done long ago (though they now appear to be reverting), and Audi has done more recently.
On that note, I got a chance to preview the W205 generation of C-Class cars over the weekend. They're not due for another 2-3 years, but the design is a complete 180 from the current gen. Very interesting segmentation choices that MB is considering too. I'll PM you with more details shortly.
__________________
'09 E92 M3: Space Gray, Black, Carbon Leather | ZTP 2MK ZPP 2MT 6FL | link 1 / link 2
Mods: M Performance exhaust | ZCP retrofit | Euro airbox | GTS DCT flash | JPN 240 ECU flash | Euro LCI taillights | CRT lip | OEM alarm retrofit | Space Gray bumper plugs | BMW Performance: Mk. II spoiler / Mk. II non-electronic steering wheel / mirror caps / front grilles / side gills / intake louvers / emblem
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2012, 07:45 PM   #94
mach330
You don't know JACK!!!
mach330's Avatar
39
Rep
796
Posts

Drives: 2011 X5 35i
Join Date: May 2005
Location: The OC

iTrader: (3)

We will surprise you with this new car.

I like that statement.
__________________
Rated /// M
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2012, 09:25 PM   #95
jcnash
New Member
Canada
0
Rep
17
Posts

Drives: 2002 C230, 2010 C63 AMG
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Toronto, Canada

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonCSU View Post
Seriously? If the successor to the E92 M3 is outstanding in all avenues of performance, but is renamed to "M4", you would no longer consider it due to the name alone?
Damn right I wont consider it! Ive dreamed of owning an "M3 coupe" all my life even though there are better cars out there in my budgeted price bracket. So yes, I want the M3 partly because of the performance, but also because it is a part of automotive history. My plan is to keep the M3 as a hobby car long-term and change my second car every few years, so yeah the car I want to keep long term has to have some historic significance behind it and the M4 just wont. I frankly dont care about what other car guys or non-car guys think about my car...but "I" wouldnt think much of a BMW M4 compared to an M3 and that does matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonCSU View Post
I understand the heritage of the M3 name and how the designations for M cars are derived, but I also understand why BMW would like to differentiate the moniker between 4 door and 2 door models.
Other than to up the price of the much-desired mid-size coupe M car (as Audi has successfully proven), I dont understand the need to differentiate. Any other reasons?
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2012, 09:29 PM   #96
jcnash
New Member
Canada
0
Rep
17
Posts

Drives: 2002 C230, 2010 C63 AMG
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Toronto, Canada

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aajami View Post
On that note, I got a chance to preview the W205 generation of C-Class cars over the weekend. They're not due for another 2-3 years, but the design is a complete 180 from the current gen. Very interesting segmentation choices that MB is considering too. I'll PM you with more details shortly.
WOW! How the hell did you get your hands on a W205??
Watcha mean its a complete 180 from the 204..you mean back to W203 design philosophy? Screw the M3/M4..I wanna know more about this LOLOL.
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2012, 09:47 PM   #97
theArgiope
Private
United_States
1
Rep
70
Posts

Drives: 2011 e90 M3
Join Date: May 2010
Location: San Francisco Bay Area

iTrader: (0)

You'll be staring at the badge whether you like it or not, because if you drive anything else, you'll be looking at my rear end!

hehe
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2012, 10:17 PM   #98
aajami
Brigadier General
aajami's Avatar
United_States
430
Rep
4,567
Posts

Drives: Space Gray '09 E92 M3
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcnash View Post
WOW! How the hell did you get your hands on a W205??
Watcha mean its a complete 180 from the 204..you mean back to W203 design philosophy? Screw the M3/M4..I wanna know more about this LOLOL.
I was selected as part of this market research effort:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=657358

I initially thought it would be for the C7 Corvette, but it wasn't. I can't say anything really, as I'm bound by an NDA, but it was a very interesting event. I spent 4 hours with the upcoming C-Class coupe, convertible, and sedan -- they look unlike anything Mercedes has released to date. They borrow heavily from the styling language of the new SL and SLK, but taken to the nth degree.
__________________
'09 E92 M3: Space Gray, Black, Carbon Leather | ZTP 2MK ZPP 2MT 6FL | link 1 / link 2
Mods: M Performance exhaust | ZCP retrofit | Euro airbox | GTS DCT flash | JPN 240 ECU flash | Euro LCI taillights | CRT lip | OEM alarm retrofit | Space Gray bumper plugs | BMW Performance: Mk. II spoiler / Mk. II non-electronic steering wheel / mirror caps / front grilles / side gills / intake louvers / emblem
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2012, 10:59 PM   #99
jcnash
New Member
Canada
0
Rep
17
Posts

Drives: 2002 C230, 2010 C63 AMG
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Toronto, Canada

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aajami View Post
I was selected as part of this market research effort:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=657358

I initially thought it would be for the C7 Corvette, but it wasn't. I can't say anything really, as I'm bound by an NDA, but it was a very interesting event. I spent 4 hours with the upcoming C-Class coupe, convertible, and sedan -- they look unlike anything Mercedes has released to date. They borrow heavily from the styling language of the new SL and SLK, but taken to the nth degree.


Fair enough...I guess NDA's are pretty standard with these type of events. The SL and SLK designs are in the top 5 on my universal list..so thats always good to hear.
Ive seen some renderings of the W205 floating around...but they tend to look more like the current CLS, which Im not a big fan of.
MB...if you read this...I would do one of these events for free! CONTACT ME!!!
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2012, 11:51 PM   #100
e46e92love
Brigadier General
e46e92love's Avatar
United_States
231
Rep
3,301
Posts

Drives: e92 ///M3; X3 (wife's)
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The East Side of Things

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonCSU View Post
Well, Porsche actually did come out with a 912:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_912

All of the 911 models after the first generation technically do have a different name like 993, 996 ,997, and the new 991 for example. For name recognition sake I suppose, the original model name has been kept though.
The 993, 997, etc.....are internal names really. They are not used much on literature so I kind of equate them to the body designations BMW uses (e30, e36, e46, e92,).....make sense?

Cheers,
e46e92
__________________

"...it's not about the money and not about the brand of the car, it's about handling,performance and passion......And that, no other car has all together like an M3........when you talk about the most complete car the M is invincible." --Tony Kanaan.
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2012, 11:55 PM   #101
e46e92love
Brigadier General
e46e92love's Avatar
United_States
231
Rep
3,301
Posts

Drives: e92 ///M3; X3 (wife's)
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The East Side of Things

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mach330 View Post
We will surprise you with this new car.

I like that statement.

Agreed

Cheers,
e46e92
__________________

"...it's not about the money and not about the brand of the car, it's about handling,performance and passion......And that, no other car has all together like an M3........when you talk about the most complete car the M is invincible." --Tony Kanaan.
Appreciate 0
      03-14-2012, 12:36 AM   #102
M3_WC
Brigadier General
1040
Rep
3,622
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
True, although, as I am sure you know, it is been this way from the very beginning; each successive generation comes with a substantial price increase over the outgoing model. Of course, this happens with all cars - not just BMWs, not just Ms, not just M3s. Having said that, we have seen recently with the F10 5 series that sometimes that trend gets bucked. The new 3 series also sees only a very small increase from the E90, though the new "lines" and the fact that you cannot get a base car with a lot of the options they include make that something of a technicality.
We are talking about the price gap between the sedan and coupe.

Not a simple % increase of new models.
Appreciate 0
      03-14-2012, 08:21 AM   #103
mkoesel
Moderator
United_States
7506
Rep
19,370
Posts

Drives: No BMW for now
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

iTrader: (1)

You're right - I sort of got on a little tangent there. That said, there's a gap between the 3 series coupe and sedan today, although I agree it is likely to increase. However, I don't think we'll see the same percentage difference we see between a 5 and 6 for example. What is the percentage difference in price between and A4 and A5, or between an S4 and S5? That's probably a good guage for what BMW will do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3_WC View Post
We are talking about the price gap between the sedan and coupe.

Not a simple % increase of new models.
Appreciate 0
      03-14-2012, 10:56 AM   #104
aajami
Brigadier General
aajami's Avatar
United_States
430
Rep
4,567
Posts

Drives: Space Gray '09 E92 M3
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
You're right - I sort of got on a little tangent there. That said, there's a gap between the 3 series coupe and sedan today, although I agree it is likely to increase. However, I don't think we'll see the same percentage difference we see between a 5 and 6 for example. What is the percentage difference in price between and A4 and A5, or between an S4 and S5? That's probably a good guage for what BMW will do.
The gap in MSRP between the A4 and A5 is around 17% for similar low-end models and up to 28% for similar high-end models, not far off from the 30% difference between the F10M and F12M. I think we're in for a rude surprise when the F32 and F82 pricing gets announced...
__________________
'09 E92 M3: Space Gray, Black, Carbon Leather | ZTP 2MK ZPP 2MT 6FL | link 1 / link 2
Mods: M Performance exhaust | ZCP retrofit | Euro airbox | GTS DCT flash | JPN 240 ECU flash | Euro LCI taillights | CRT lip | OEM alarm retrofit | Space Gray bumper plugs | BMW Performance: Mk. II spoiler / Mk. II non-electronic steering wheel / mirror caps / front grilles / side gills / intake louvers / emblem
Appreciate 0
      03-14-2012, 12:06 PM   #105
mkoesel
Moderator
United_States
7506
Rep
19,370
Posts

Drives: No BMW for now
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aajami View Post
The gap in MSRP between the A4 and A5 is around 17% for similar low-end models and up to 28% for similar high-end models, not far off from the 30% difference between the F10M and F12M. I think we're in for a rude surprise when the F32 and F82 pricing gets announced...
Around 17% sounds right to me. I will be very surprised if they go over a 20% difference for equivalently spec'd cars. I also highly doubt that the M4 will MSRP above $80k base price. So if we assume that is true then if we also figure that the new M3 only costs a little more than the outgoing one, that doesn't leave much room. If the sedan is, say $65k starting, that would put the coupe at around $75k. And even that seems fairly steep for an M4 especially when options will put it at $85k or even $90k. We are then getting into 911 territory, and although that's for a no-option base model with 350hp, the car is pretty darn quick.

(BTW F12 is the convertible, F13 is the coupe. It seems backwards, but that's how they did it this time around. )
Appreciate 0
      03-14-2012, 12:42 PM   #106
aajami
Brigadier General
aajami's Avatar
United_States
430
Rep
4,567
Posts

Drives: Space Gray '09 E92 M3
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post

(BTW F12 is the convertible, F13 is the coupe. It seems backwards, but that's how they did it this time around. )
Dammit, I knew that. F12 came out before the F13...
__________________
'09 E92 M3: Space Gray, Black, Carbon Leather | ZTP 2MK ZPP 2MT 6FL | link 1 / link 2
Mods: M Performance exhaust | ZCP retrofit | Euro airbox | GTS DCT flash | JPN 240 ECU flash | Euro LCI taillights | CRT lip | OEM alarm retrofit | Space Gray bumper plugs | BMW Performance: Mk. II spoiler / Mk. II non-electronic steering wheel / mirror caps / front grilles / side gills / intake louvers / emblem
Appreciate 0
      03-14-2012, 02:41 PM   #107
JasonCSU
Colonel
United_States
696
Rep
2,548
Posts

Drives: '08 135i, '88 325is
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Denver, CO

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
1988 BMW 325is  [0.00]
2008 BMW 135i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 宝马.e90 View Post
I always thought or looked at the 993, 996, 997, and 991 as internal designations like we do with the 3-Series and the E30, E36, E46 and E90, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
The 993, 997, etc.....are internal names really. They are not used much on literature so I kind of equate them to the body designations BMW uses (e30, e36, e46, e92,).....make sense?

Cheers,
e46e92
Yes, it does make sense that they are internal references, but I still look at them as the "true" model designations in Porsche's case when comparing them to other production models. For example, there was the 924, 928, 944, 959, and 968 that all used these designations as their model names. The 994 replaced the 924, and the 968 replaced the 944, but the newer models did not keep the "924" name.

That's why I believe a designation like "997" is the true model name, but they kept the "911" name for historical and marketing purposes.
__________________
Delivered in Munich, broken in on the Nurburgring.
Appreciate 0
      03-14-2012, 03:02 PM   #108
M3_WC
Brigadier General
1040
Rep
3,622
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
You're right - I sort of got on a little tangent there. That said, there's a gap between the 3 series coupe and sedan today, although I agree it is likely to increase. However, I don't think we'll see the same percentage difference we see between a 5 and 6 for example. What is the percentage difference in price between and A4 and A5, or between an S4 and S5? That's probably a good guage for what BMW will do.
That is exactly what I was saying in my original post. The 2011 M3 sedan and coupe gap was $3,000. I suspect that to nearly double. The current gap between the S4 and S5 is $6,600. I used the 5 and 6 serious as an extreme example. Their difference being over $20k and not exactly apples for apples. But it does shed light on where they make take the 4-series and M4 in the future. With the next generation 3-series chassis.
Appreciate 0
      03-14-2012, 03:05 PM   #109
M3_WC
Brigadier General
1040
Rep
3,622
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aajami View Post
The gap in MSRP between the A4 and A5 is around 17% for similar low-end models and up to 28% for similar high-end models, not far off from the 30% difference between the F10M and F12M. I think we're in for a rude surprise when the F32 and F82 pricing gets announced...
I am afraid so. Some of people that are downplaying the badge change, might be singing a different tune.
Appreciate 0
      03-14-2012, 03:45 PM   #110
JasonCSU
Colonel
United_States
696
Rep
2,548
Posts

Drives: '08 135i, '88 325is
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Denver, CO

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
1988 BMW 325is  [0.00]
2008 BMW 135i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcnash View Post
Damn right I wont consider it! Ive dreamed of owning an "M3 coupe" all my life even though there are better cars out there in my budgeted price bracket. So yes, I want the M3 partly because of the performance, but also because it is a part of automotive history. My plan is to keep the M3 as a hobby car long-term and change my second car every few years, so yeah the car I want to keep long term has to have some historic significance behind it and the M4 just wont. I frankly dont care about what other car guys or non-car guys think about my car...but "I" wouldnt think much of a BMW M4 compared to an M3 and that does matter.
To each their own, but that seems a little ridiculous to me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jcnash View Post
Other than to up the price of the much-desired mid-size coupe M car (as Audi has successfully proven), I dont understand the need to differentiate. Any other reasons?
The coupes have already cost more than their sedan counterparts, but sure, this could lead to a larger price differential. That point aside, BMW has been hinting for quite a while that they would like all sedan, hatch, and touring models to be odd numbered, and all coupes, convertibles, roadsters, and 4-door coupes to be even numbered.
__________________
Delivered in Munich, broken in on the Nurburgring.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
2014 bmw m3, 2014 bmw m4, 2014 m3, 2014 m3 forum, 2014 m4, 2015 bmw m4, 2015 m4, 3 series f32, 3 series f32 forum, 3 series forum, 4 series f32, 4 series f32 forum, 4-series forum, bmw 3 series forum, bmw 3-series f32, bmw 4 series forum, bmw 4-series f32, bmw f32, bmw f32 3-series, bmw f32 4 series, bmw f80, bmw f80 forum, bmw f80 forums, bmw f80 m3, bmw f80 m3 sedan, bmw f82, bmw f82 forum, bmw f82 forums, bmw f82 m3, bmw f82 m3 coupe, bmw f82 m3 forum, bmw f82 m4, bmw f82 m4 coupe, bmw f83, bmw f83 convertible, bmw f83 m3, bmw f83 m3 convertible, bmw f83 m4, bmw f83 m4 convertible, bmw m forum, bmw m forums, bmw m4, bmw m4 coupe, bmw m4 coupe forum, bmw m4 forum, bmw m4 forums, f32 3-series, f32 3-series forum, f32 4-series, f32 4-series forum

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:49 AM.




f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST