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      07-30-2014, 06:36 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PKumarM3 View Post
this 911 was equipped w/sports chrono - which gives you electric motor mounts and also much better throttle mapping and gear shifting - esp with PDK.
Whoa, I never heard of "electric motor mounts," so I looked it up. They are actually "dynamic engine mounts". I still don't know exactly what that means, but apparently they "exploit the laws of physics for your own driving pleasure."
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      07-30-2014, 06:43 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PKumarM3 View Post
that is a base 3.4L Carrera w/350hp.

the best way to tell is the kick plates when he got into the car - they say Carrera vs. Carrera S.

this 911 was equipped w/sports chrono - which gives you electric motor mounts and also much better throttle mapping and gear shifting - esp with PDK.

the PCCB (carbon ceramic brakes) are also a welcome addition for non stop braking.

at the end of the day, the M3/4 is a 3/4 series that is juiced up vs. a sports car built from the ground up - the 911.

both cars serve different purposes. great comparison!
I like that
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      07-30-2014, 06:44 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine F31 View Post
Whoa, I never heard of "electric motor mounts," so I looked it up. They are actually "dynamic engine mounts". I still don't know exactly what that means, but apparently they "exploit the laws of physics for your own driving pleasure."
Dynamic engine mounts are similar to the magnetic ride control used in optional Corvette and standard shocks of 458. Based on electrical current they soften and harden, which is controlled by the ECU based on steering angle and g forces. This is particularly useful in 911s, since the engine is way out back and during hard cornering the engine mounts help the engine stay more steady; however, they soften during normal driving to reduce NVH. You can definitely tell the difference at the track between a 911 that has it and one that doesn't.
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      07-30-2014, 06:45 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
PSS are great street tires but they do get very greasy quickly in my experience and you can easily destroy a set in a track weekend. They are probably one of the best dual purpose tires... street and track... but there are much better track oriented tires out there that handle heat better... RE11, AD08R, etc, etc.
I did 90 min at VIR in 95 degree heat with the PSS and the only time they got greasy was when I was intentionally sliding the car.

The current PSS is lightyears ahead of the RE11, and I am a huge proponent of the RE11. I have my fourth set in the shop now.

If you destroy a PSS in a weekend your alignment is likely the cause.

The current PSS is a new level for UHP street tires.
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      07-30-2014, 06:56 PM   #49
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The first mod will be getting rid of the runflats and replace them with Bridgestone RE11 shoes.
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      07-30-2014, 07:00 PM   #50
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911 remains the benchmark which is not surprising.

PSSs are the best all around tire, but for the track the RS3 and ZII are much better for porky BMWs.
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      07-30-2014, 07:01 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svc0x80 View Post
The first mod will be getting rid of the runflats and replace them with Bridgestone RE11 shoes.
i thought m cars dont come w run flats
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He tries to draw people into inane arguments, some weird pastime of his.
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      07-30-2014, 07:02 PM   #52
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Smile Dynamic Traction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomex View Post
Nice little video of them going head to head
The Porsche is a base Carrera, not an S; it would say 'Carrera S' on the back. The reason the Porsche accelerates out of a curve is due to 'dynamic traction', because of the weight over the rear wheels creating better traction on exit, also improving steering input. I am currently in a 991 Carrera S, trading into BMW M4. The one thing that bothers me is throttle oversteer, making the car slower. Wish they would have tamed that a bit better, especially for driving in wet and/or cold weather/climates. Did you notice the steering inputs the driver had to make w/ the M4 to correct it? Not good, IMHO, but I want a BMW M4 anyway. Lastly, the Pirelli P Zeros are fabulous tires, at least on my Porsche. And lest you think I'm being a 'Porsche Guy', the 1st set of Pirellis I ever drove on were on my 1973 BMW 2002 tii w/ 125,000 mi!
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      07-30-2014, 07:20 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
i thought m cars dont come w run flats
Ah thank god, I hated the runflats. I assumed since no spare tire...runflats.

edit:
Still going with the RE11s, they're some of the best tires I've had on a car.

Last edited by svc0x80; 07-30-2014 at 07:25 PM..
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      07-30-2014, 07:25 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YianniM3 View Post
I could be wrong i don't know to much about porsche but I've never seen a base carrera with quad exhaust I've only seen the carrera s with it... maybe you can get quad exhaust package on a base carrera?
If you order the sport tail pipes you get the quad tips on the non S. That 911 is a non S with Sport PASM and the 20" wheels. This is a car that will be in the low $90k range. In my eyes a set of 295s out back of the M4 would probably have evened it out a tad.

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Last edited by Dave07997S; 07-30-2014 at 07:30 PM..
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      07-30-2014, 07:33 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cs4444 View Post
While the M4 may have higher quality tire, the rears on the Porsche are 12 inches wide vs 10 in the M4. So the Porsche has an extra 4 inches of contact area in the rear plus around 400lbs less mass, so its grip advantage is considerable.

Put 11 inch wide PSS on the M4, and 9.5s on the front, and its grip potential would be a closer to the porches.
The 911 has 11" wide wheels if you order the 20" wheels, you can also order the SportTechno wheels which are 11.5". The base 911 has a 10" 285 tire, the car tested was a 20X11 with 295/30/20 tires. I agree though, with the amount of low end torque the M4 has it needs more rubber.

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      07-30-2014, 07:35 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Year's_End View Post
Standard on the 991.
Yes finally...
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      07-30-2014, 07:39 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tcpsoft
Did he really say he preferred the BMW transmission over the PDK? That's surprising as I thought the PDK on the 981 Cayman S I test drove was better than the DCT....
Oh man, I couldn't disagree more. I drove a PDK-equipped Cayman and hated the transmission. Specifically: 1) creep from a stop, 2) drop to neutral while coasting, and 3) push to upshift/pull to downshift.

The M-DCT unit does none of these, and is much better for it.

Interestingly enough, the PDK-R unit in the GT3 does none of those things either. Will be very interesting to see if Porsche propagates that unit's behavior to the rest of their PDK models.
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      07-30-2014, 07:44 PM   #58
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Throttle mapping will help, but herein lies the the issue that any race driver will tell you...less linear and progressive power as well as steps in a torque curve are harder to control in a track situation. As Steve Dinan once described, the "perfect engine" for racing has a linear power curve and a torque curve that is flat as a table for a wide rpm range, where throttle application can exert a huge amount of control over the car in terms of acceleration, turning, and by derivative, shorter gearing (which helps with engine braking to a degree, as to extract most out of a high-revving N/A engine with a wide powerband, will need short gearing for high torque multiplication).

On the track for most amateurs, it is going to be a tricky proposition if the pros are having issues with achieving consistent times, so will take more practice. As the driver said, the abundance of torque on the track only heats up tires (causes less control), which by implications as others have said, means you have to go with significantly larger tires or a more progressive throttle mapping. Ultimately these are methods used to better control a turbo charged engine. Matters much more for the track vs the street obviously, as doing "smokey burnouts" have fun factor characteristics in their own right!

All in all, his comments were positive and I always like hearing what race drivers have to say as they know how to fully exploit a vehicle's true potential.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PKumarM3 View Post
throttle mapping is a great thing!

what about if he had better tires on the 991 and more time w/the Porsche? I am sure the Porsche comes out ahead 90/100 times.

Last edited by FogCityM3; 07-30-2014 at 07:50 PM..
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      07-30-2014, 07:48 PM   #59
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I keep seeing the topic of wider tires being brought up. That's not always the best idea nor an insta-solution. Wider tires won't always increase grip (at least not to a proportional degree that one could expect) as the contact patch will change shape thanks to the weight on it.

If you increase rear tire size, unsprung weight will go up and the car will have a larger tendency to understeer during cornering. That would have to be compensated with suspension adjustments (stiffer rear tuning, larger rear sways or softer fronts, etc.), or you would have to increase front tire width. Once you do that, your steering is impacted, and again, weight goes up.

Not always the best option. It would be easier to simply opt for a more aggressive compound.

http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible_pg3.html
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      07-30-2014, 07:58 PM   #60
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Not surprised at all. Two different philosophies how to built a sports car. Porsche
Is a better track car.
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      07-30-2014, 08:00 PM   #61
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Pretty sure that 911 had the sport exhaust system and that would give it the quad exhaust tips. I just traded out of a 2013 981 Boxster S and came within a day of ordering a base 911. With a similar level of equipment (and including sport exhaust and sport chrono) to the M3 the Porsche was coming in at over $110k and had trouble finding a build slot of a base 911. Porsche's are fantastic cars and I loved my 981 but I wanted a more useful car that I could drive on a more regular basis. I went to look at the M3 before I decided to order the 911 and that was it.

I did like the PDK in the Porsche more than the DCT. Once warmed up the PDK was flawless. The DCT does "act" more like a real manual. Add in the sport exhaust on the Porsche and the sound was great. The BMW sounds great in a different way....deeper and louder like a v8 or something. In the end I decided to save $30k and go with the BMW with no regrets. But Porsche does build a great car.
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      07-30-2014, 08:04 PM   #62
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Maybe M division should look into torque vectoring or reworking the tech on their active M differential. Tires are only one part of the equation, though probably the easiest thing to correct. If you believe all the BMW hyperbole that these PSSs are super engineered/tested specially for the M4 then you would think that they should offer better traction.

That said I like wrestling for traction. It's more fun.
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      07-30-2014, 08:17 PM   #63
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Not only it is faster. Porsche built quality makes the bmw feels cheap. I drove them both. Cant compete with the "expensive" feeling in the porsche. Take perfection to the next level
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      07-30-2014, 08:18 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trinim3
Maybe M division should look into torque vectoring or reworking the tech on their active M differential. Tires are only one part of the equation, though probably the easiest thing to correct. If you believe all the BMW hyperbole that these PSSs are super engineered/tested specially for the M4 then you would think that they should offer better traction.

That said I like wrestling for traction. It's more fun.
Any ideas that we could think of are sure to have been brought up (or more likely evaluated and exhausted) by those engineers. You can rest assured that they maxed out the platform to the highest degree given their need to factor for cost and reliability.
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      07-30-2014, 08:23 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Year's_End View Post
Any ideas that we could think of are sure to have been brought up (or more likely evaluated and exhausted) by those engineers. You can rest assured that they maxed out the platform to the highest degree given their need to factor for cost and reliability.
You hit the nail on the head. They needed to factor in keeping costs down and profits up.
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      07-30-2014, 08:50 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave07997S View Post
Yes finally...
This is simply not true. A base 991 Carrera does not come with an LSD standard. Only an "S" does. You have to order the PTV or APTV for the base car.
It is impossible to tell from the video whether this car had an LSD or not.
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