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      05-04-2013, 05:30 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Amazing how little faith people have in BMW on this forum. The company has built amazing 4 cylinder engines,6 cylinder engines ,8 cylinder engines, 10 cylinder engines ,and some decent 12 cylinder motors as well!

They announce a unique (in this case 3 cylinder 310 hp ) motor and rather than consider the amazing performance, the first thing you do is pronounce it a failure!
Did you actually read and understand what I wrote?

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Your comparison of the s65 vs a base n20 is as ridiculous as comparing an s14 with a 1.6 liter diesel or an M20 eta motor. . You are comparing a thoroughbred and a workhorse. they aren't both going to run the same circuits.
Being intimate with both, I was comparing characteristics of each of engine and you nailed it, the N20 is just a little, efficient workhouse, but that's why i purchased it. It's a great M3 companion. My entire point was this: a proper M car need not only be fast, but have a damn soul. Just look at the s63tu vs s85 and hopefully you'll understand where I'm coming from.

At the end of the day, I'd LOVE to have my concerns negated.
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      05-04-2013, 10:52 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post

I think BMW needs to wake up and stop making utterly life less cars. Otherwise in their desire to gain new customers they will lose the core believe that made them so special to begin with.
Eh, they are selling their new cars pretty well... I think most people are simply going for "luxury features" and "badge" when shopping for BMW's nowadays (for them BMW is just another luxury brand like Mercedes or Lexus) and they could care less about things like "steering feedback" or "suspension response" or the natural sound of powerful engine (instead of MP3 soundtrack of an engine in new M5 )... Which sucks for people who actually like to drive, but what can you do...
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      05-05-2013, 01:30 AM   #69
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NOT ME

I Hope someone from BMW is listing... WE DO NOT WANT, OR LIKE, ELECTRONIC STEERING!

Hydraulic, or say goodbye to my business, and many more I would assume....
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      05-05-2013, 01:41 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Hedoniste View Post
Sound was really nice inside the car and very few lag.

The sound inside was very nice due to it being computer generated and played through the speakers.
Amplify some frequencys and remove others and voila it sound likea real engine inside the car...

Right.
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      05-05-2013, 01:57 AM   #71
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Nice, vague answers....
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      05-05-2013, 02:04 AM   #72
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All M3's "are spoken for?" What is he talking about...?! There are still cars allocated and available for order...
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      05-05-2013, 02:37 AM   #73
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He means E90 M3s are gone for good unless they sell them as Chinese M3s for the sub brand - when is the cutoff for E92/3s?

I want my M car to sound like F1 and handle on rails and feel like it has a soul of a pissed off bull or shark - it is supposed to be Motorsport derived it should have that oh-shit factor

For the fancier crowd that likes quiet and soft and ease and comfort and doesn't want to hear the induction or spool or blow off get the 550i or if you want economy the 28i or AH - I do like V8/10s that rev to the sky and proper manual transmissions but DCT can be good and turbo 4s and 6s and 3s can be good too
.
Bespoke and RWD go together and light weight and 50/50

I hope M is listening that if EPS and active sound and turbos become the standard please do your best to make it surgically close as possible to hydraulics and pump the actual engine noise in through sound tubes that don't rob boost and keep up the work on reducing turbo lag
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      05-05-2013, 05:08 AM   #74
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I check the emission requirement on Europe, not US, but I think what is leagal to sell Europe is too in US.

So electric steering drop co2 emissions automaticly 2.2g/km and consuption 0.3L/100km(bmw website). 1995 Bmw average co2 emissions are 210g/km, nowadays(Dont know are they talking which year 2011 or 2012) it is dropped 145g/km – as a result of investing €1.2 billion ($A1.5bn), and would meet the EU legislative targets for 2015.(Goauto.com, BMW chief)

"The EU fleet average target of 130g CO2 per km will be phased in between 2012 and 2015. In 2012, an average of 65% of each manufacturer's newly registered cars must comply with the limit value curve set by the legislation. This will rise to 75% in 2013, 80% in 2014, and 100% from 2015 onwards.

If the average CO2 emissions of a manufacturer's fleet exceed its limit value in any year from 2012, the manufacturer has to pay an excess emissions premium for each car registered. This premium amounts to €5 for the first g/km of exceedance, €15 for the second g/km, €25 for the third g/km, and €95 for each subsequent g/km. From 2019, the cost will be €95 from the first gram of exceedance onwards. http://ec.europa.eu/clima/policies"

What we learn? Maybe we must live with electric steering like Chris Harris says. Still I think there is room for real drivers car, NA car to enthusias, but platform must be light(low emissions) 1300-1400kg, M2 3.0L I6 NA (3.4L Cayman 223g/km)engine whith around 315bhp/7500rpm and 150kg lighter than std. model(only Na engine save 30-50kg), made only 2000-3000 cars and they not rise the emission average a lot. Price little higher than std. M2.

Someone would say, cost too much to development totally new engine. No, it not cost, S14 block is also used 2002ti, so it´s easy to do NA engine using N55 block. If I remember rigth 997 turbo and 997 GT3 share same block and these cars not producted much, maybe 5000-8000. Amen.

Last edited by Tåst; 05-05-2013 at 05:13 AM..
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      05-05-2013, 07:44 AM   #75
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No big surprise that electric steering is coming from M just as has been widely rumored and predicted. I also expect we will see AWD M passenger cars eventually, at least offered as an option, even though it undoes 100+ lbs of painstaking weight loss effort.

There is a lot of doom in gloom response in this thread but I actually see a number of things to be optimistic about in what this gentleman said. Reading between the lines, it sounds to me like we could see a ~600hp, ~8000RPM I6 engine from M by the time the "G generation" rolls in. And a very lightweight car to put it in. Impossible? I guess we'll see. In the meantime the intrigue only builds. Clearly they have some twists coming for the S55 engine and F8x chassis. "We will surprise you" is what we've heard in the past. Based on how low the expectations are that I hear people putting on this car, I'd say this will be the case.
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      05-05-2013, 09:43 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
So far, M3 tradition puts the M4 power output slightly more than any 7-Series (except V12) of the time. For example,

E30 M3 at 192hp vs E32 735i at 185hp
E36 M3 at 240(US)/286/321(EU)hp vs E38 740i at 282hp
E46 M3 at 333(US)/343(EU)hp vs E65 745i at 325hp
E92 M3 at 414(US)/420(EU)hp vs F01 750i at 400hp
F80 M4 at least 450hp vs F01 LCi at 445hp

So we should be fine.
BTW, US and EU have the same horsepower, its just a slightly different measurement, 414 US HP = 420 EU HP
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      05-05-2013, 10:11 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holander View Post
So electric steering drop co2 emissions automaticly 2.2g/km and consumption 0.3L/100km(bmw website).
These sound like such bogus reasons, to me.
To begin with, a 0.3L/100km amounts to savings of $86 a year.
(15,000 mi/year, 18 mpg, $4.50 /gal avg)
BMW wants their customers to stop complaining about electric steering and, instead, join them in obsessing over $86 a year?

I know, I know, if you multiply this by x million cars ........
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      05-05-2013, 10:12 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gahbouch View Post
BTW, US and EU have the same horsepower, its just a slightly different measurement, 414 US HP = 420 EU HP
Yes, that's the (EU)...
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      05-05-2013, 03:53 PM   #79
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Looks like the M brand is officially dead.

Electric steering, turbos, and just a tuned up 3 series engine........

Also I dont get how some of you are saying it will be "at least 450 hp stock" when every other piece of information says otherwise.
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      05-05-2013, 07:26 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAM3S View Post
Looks like the M brand is officially dead.

Electric steering, turbos, and just a tuned up 3 series engine........

Also I dont get how some of you are saying it will be "at least 450 hp stock" when every other piece of information says otherwise.
Yawn. It seems most used-E92 M3 buyers are hoping the F80 is a failure. The envy is utterly transparent.
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      05-05-2013, 07:33 PM   #81
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Lot of wailing and teeth gnashing in this thread. Amusing. I shall enjoy mine when I get it.
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      05-05-2013, 10:44 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AWESOM3 View Post
C/D: Is it still possible to order a current-generation M3?

FN: Actually, it is sold out. We will build the coupe and the cabriolet for about another half year, but on principle, the cars are spoken for.
ALREADY SOLD OUT?!

so glad I got my 2013
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      05-06-2013, 01:04 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
I call big, huge BS on this one
show me one car that has electric power steering that is anything like hydraulic steering

the car companies love it because its more efficient
so it saves them 1-2 mpg or something
but to say it's "on par" is either a blatant lie, or you know nothing about cars
Not a porsche believer, eh? I've driven each of the last 4 generations of 911 extensively, and the current one with electric steering is... electric! I mean that in a good way. It's damned precise.

Even on my wife's F30, I quickly get over the lack of heft and appreciate the hell out of how precise the steering is. Can't complain. It's the future. Get on board, or keep your old car and keep on grumbling.
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      05-06-2013, 09:49 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAM3S View Post
Looks like the M brand is officially dead.

Electric steering, turbos, and just a tuned up 3 series engine........

Also I dont get how some of you are saying it will be "at least 450 hp stock" when every other piece of information says otherwise.
M is not dead if anything it is thriving and progressing more than before.
Our competitors stretch the horsepower war because they are only interested in the numbers, there is more , a lot more to a performance car than just the numbers. Numbers might entice but for M the same thing matters over and over and that is progress , progress in balance , progress in dynamics , progress in precision.

The benchmark for the M3 and M4 electric steering is the car that has cracked it and that is the Porsche 911 991 series, and that is the level the M developed and engineered electric steering rack are working to so that overall driver communication is not lost.
The engine may be based on an N55 but it has been extensively reworked for application on an M vehicle and there will effectively be three M models receiving this engine along with their respective variants - M3 , M4 and X4M.

A three cylinder BMW might sound unthinkable but it is very much a reality.
Although nothing is final there could be an M Performance variant of the forthcoming BMW City Compact FWD car or even a high performance MINI.

As per the current M3 Coupe.
The production allocations for the final models are sold and that means that dealers would have bought the allocation slots when given the final announcement for the last production units. It is now up to them to find the last customers.
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      05-06-2013, 10:21 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by jaehshim View Post
HA HA, damn!
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      05-06-2013, 10:23 AM   #86
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^^
Is there any chance that the ///M version of the b38 would see duty in a RWD car? ~300hp, RWD, and less weight up front sound like a good combination to me!
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      05-06-2013, 03:15 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCoupeInsanity View Post
Not a porsche believer, eh? I've driven each of the last 4 generations of 911 extensively, and the current one with electric steering is... electric! I mean that in a good way. It's damned precise.

Even on my wife's F30, I quickly get over the lack of heft and appreciate the hell out of how precise the steering is. Can't complain. It's the future. Get on board, or keep your old car and keep on grumbling.
not a fan of the 911, so no, I haven't test driven the new one

but almost every single review of the 911 has mentioned that the steering is not as good as it used to be

F30 I have tried, and no, it doesn't compare to the hydraulic one in the E90/92
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      05-06-2013, 03:21 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
M is not dead if anything it is thriving and progressing more than before.
I think you are confusing selling more, with success
they are not always the same.

if Porsche decided to launch a 4 cyl 911
they will sell more, and someone like you, will think that they are successful
but soon enough, the former buyers of the 6cyl won't buy it anymore since it's gone down-market, and they will move on.

the M brand was successful with the real driver as its market audience
now its focus is the people that just want to show off the M badge (china being a key example)
and soon enough you will realize that this is a fickle bunch.
and once they move on to the latest and greatest from another manufacturer
you will find you also lost the sales to the real drivers that used to buy your products

that is what worries me, but I think BMW is too busy rolling in the money to think like this.

there is such a concept as stretching yourself too thin
there used to be 2 or 3 M models
now there are a lot more
and even more M badged cars
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