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View Poll Results: What transmission will-you-get or do-you-have in your M3/M4?
6MT 1,320 53.57%
DCT 1,144 46.43%
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      01-01-2018, 03:45 PM   #2993
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
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Originally Posted by Memphis17CPM4 View Post
@ellipsis212 You and I both. I've driven manuals for 20 years. There are only three reasons I feel that people prefer manual over DCT 1) wanting to feel "connected" to the car and 2) die-hard paradigm lovin' enthusiast. 3) can't afford the up charge for the DCT (Don't say you don't want to spend the money, we are driving $70+ cars... you have disposable income if you are driving it, if you don't please refer to #3 again). There is nothing wrong with any of those and I would support anyone in those categories. However, there is no competitive advantage to a DCT. That is why BMW will phase them out. Ok, I just cinched the Velcro on my neck guard on my fire suit, I am ready now
What about (compared to a standard AT):
  • Less power loss during upshift
  • Lighter drivetrain components (less rotating mass)
  • Less parasitic losses
  • Faster shift response
  • Ability to skip to any gear

The reason BMW is phasing them out is one of cost, not "competitive advantage" (read performance). There is a reason the high-end sport car makers are still using DCTs (Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, McLaren, Bugatti, etc...)
Maybe I wasn't clear or maybe I'm confused. I meant that BMW is phasing out manuals one day. That is what I meant, do I have that incorrect?
So in 4-6 years you will only be able to get a standard auto trans?
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      01-01-2018, 05:21 PM   #2994
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Originally Posted by Memphis17CPM4 View Post
Maybe I wasn't clear or maybe I'm confused. I meant that BMW is phasing out manuals one day. That is what I meant, do I have that incorrect?
It seems I misread your post, it wasn't really clear though.

Yes, MT are slowly being phased out at BMW. If I am not mistaken, the F8X (M2/3/4) are the only BMWs left in North America with a MT option.

There are also rumors, and many discussions on the topic, that BMW will phase out the DCT in favor of a standard AT in all future ///M cars like they did on the new M5. Which means all BMWs, Ms and non-Ms, will eventually come with a single transmission. Hence my reply, I thought you were referring to that.
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      01-01-2018, 05:57 PM   #2995
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
What about (compared to a standard AT):
  • Less power loss during upshift
  • Lighter drivetrain components (less rotating mass)
  • Less parasitic losses
  • Faster shift response
  • Ability to skip to any gear

The reason BMW is phasing them out is one of cost, not "competitive advantage" (read performance). There is a reason the high-end sport car makers are still using DCTs (Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, McLaren, Bugatti, etc...)
The 8 Speed ZF is used in the M235 Factory Racer. I have driven one on track and I have discussed the transmission with the drivers and crew of Turner Motorsports including Will Turner. It shifts so fast that power loss during upshifts is moot. The torque converter is locked up by a clutch mechanism and is out of the picture once the car is in motion.

The conclusion is that the shifts are virtually instantaneous and so smooth and so perfectly rev matched that you can downshift mid corer without upsetting the car. The 8 Speed ZF can also skip gears.


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      01-01-2018, 06:44 PM   #2996
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      01-01-2018, 06:53 PM   #2997
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Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
The 8 Speed ZF is used in the M235 Factory Racer. I have driven one on track and I have discussed the transmission with the drivers and crew of Turner Motorsports including Will Turner. It shifts so fast that power loss during upshifts is moot. The torque converter is locked up by a clutch mechanism and is out of the picture once the car is in motion.

The conclusion is that the shifts are virtually instantaneous and so smooth and so perfectly rev matched that you can downshift mid corer without upsetting the car. The 8 Speed ZF can also skip gears.


The DCT is more of an experience tho. The ZF won't sound as good during up or down shifts (less pop).
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      01-01-2018, 08:23 PM   #2998
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Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
What about (compared to a standard AT):
  • Less power loss during upshift
  • Lighter drivetrain components (less rotating mass)
  • Less parasitic losses
  • Faster shift response
  • Ability to skip to any gear

The reason BMW is phasing them out is one of cost, not "competitive advantage" (read performance). There is a reason the high-end sport car makers are still using DCTs (Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, McLaren, Bugatti, etc...)
The 8 Speed ZF is used in the M235 Factory Racer. I have driven one on track and I have discussed the transmission with the drivers and crew of Turner Motorsports including Will Turner. It shifts so fast that power loss during upshifts is moot. The torque converter is locked up by a clutch mechanism and is out of the picture once the car is in motion.

The conclusion is that the shifts are virtually instantaneous and so smooth and so perfectly rev matched that you can downshift mid corer without upsetting the car. The 8 Speed ZF can also skip gears.
I agree that modern AT have now come very close at matching the advantages of DCT. But they aren't quite there yet, we've had this discussion more than once .

The ZF 8AT still needs to reduce engine power while shifting. This is minimal, but the DCT still has a slight edge here where it can do an all out power shift for optimal acceleration. The ZF can skip some gears, but not skip any gear. Hence why I worded my points as such.

IMO, the M235 racer comes with the ZF 8AT simply because that is how the street car comes, just as the GT4 M4 comes with a DCT.
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Last edited by CanAutM3; 01-02-2018 at 08:53 AM..
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      01-02-2018, 12:32 AM   #2999
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I agree that modern AT have now come very close at matching the advantages of DCT. But they aren't quite there yet, we've had this discussion more than once .

The ZF 8AT still needs to reduce engine power while shifting. This is minimal, but the DCT still had a slight edge here where it can do an all out power shift for optimal acceleration. The ZF can skip some gears, but not skip any gear. Hence why I worded my points as such.
I always enjoy reading your posts to learn hehe.

Question though. Do you think engineers will ever manage to rid the DCT of the annoying studder at low gear/low rpm? As far as I know, that is probably the biggest annoyance with DCTs, that and the weight.

Hell the PDK has this too, I can push it out by driving a certain way in the Macan S and the GTS.
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      01-02-2018, 12:51 AM   #3000
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After owning an e92 M3 DCT, I loved it so much that I got my M4 DCT. I've owned the car for a couple years now and definitely agree that it takes time to get use to the DCT. I have done multiple track days as well as countless road trips & I believe I've finally got the hang of how our cars behave in different settings, I personally could not see myself owning a manual transmission for this platform.

BUT... I did miss the "drivers connection" that I feel everybody gets from the manual transmission, which led me to buying a 6 speed e46 m3 to enjoy whenever I feel like driving with three pedals.
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      01-02-2018, 09:30 AM   #3001
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Originally Posted by Arcades View Post
I always enjoy reading your posts to learn hehe.

Question though. Do you think engineers will ever manage to rid the DCT of the annoying studder at low gear/low rpm? As far as I know, that is probably the biggest annoyance with DCTs, that and the weight.

Hell the PDK has this too, I can push it out by driving a certain way in the Macan S and the GTS.
That's just one of the those problems I've not had in 6 years of a DCT driving - could be years MT driving, but I drive a 2015 old software in full sport mode and have zero problems with creep, studder, or any of these other issues people bring up with either of my DCT cars.

Honestly if they "fixed" it, I'd probably hate it because the car would give you less feedback to let you know what it's doing and that's also why I prefer BMW's MT-like DCT behavior to PDK - just don't like PDK's more slushy feel. I know that's controversial and, yes, the PDK shifts slightly faster, but it also feels less connected to me. I'm probably the only person in the World that would call the PDK slushy, but it just doesn't feel right to me like the DCT does. Could just be the DCT was my first

I suppose the real "fix" would be 3 transmissions: MT, DCT, and the ZF. People who prefer the more planetary gear/torque converter feel could take the ZF.

I'd take the DCT every time, but of course we'll never see three transmissions.
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      01-03-2018, 07:54 PM   #3002
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41 year old here, learned to drive on a stick and have had nothing since that fateful first day of stalling the car in a school parking lot learning how to make the car go.

Autos, paddles, whatever the hell they call them now bore the hell out of me. Rapidly aging guy yelling at the moon perhaps?

Love my 6MT M4 though, wouldn't have it if it didn't come in a stick.
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      01-04-2018, 12:36 AM   #3003
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When the M3 was first introduced I was dead set on getting the DCT. Technology was here to overtake the "archaic manual" and I couldn't see myself leaving performance on the table by opting for a manual despite owning countless performance manual cars in the past. Being that this would be my daily driver, and the fact that my wife doesn't drive standard transmissions, DCT was the only option at the time. And in late 2014 I took delivery of 2015 DCT F80 (non ZCP obviously). I loved the car, shifts are wicked fast, sometimes too fast where the car could become unsettled but nonetheless it was a fantastic drive.

The DCT doesn't get boring in my opinion especially when driving in manual mode. The quick downshifts and upshift propulsion eliminated any sort of bore for me.

I do have a few small complaints with the DCT:

1. The auto mode is not that good. It feels clumsy at slower speeds but definitely a nice feature when sitting in traffic. The clumsy auto mode was not a big deal for me because 99% of the time I used manual mode.

2. I wish 1st gear was longer. I had used a number of tires and sizes and the gears are so short aggressive throttle use will roast just about any tire.

3. It takes time to get used to throttle sensitivity. For the first few months I constantly had the car bucking when lightly accelerating from a dead stop. It was annoying, the GTR doesn't do this probably because 1st gear isn't so low.

4. Launch control is worthless in my opinion.

5. I prefer the column shifters found in a GTR, they can be found at all times.

Positives with the DCT:

1. Convenient.

2. Blistering fast shifts both up and down.

3. Gives car performance advantages over a competitive field.

4. Highway fuel economy.

5. Angry presence.

A few months ago my lease expired in my 2015 F80. I was so happy with the car I ended up ordering a base F80 ZCP in DCT. To make a very long story short I ultimately opted to give the manual a shot last minute. In three years of ownership with the previous M3, my wife only drove the F80 about three times therefore it was an easy sell

Admittedly, about six months ago I test drove 2017 manual ZCP F80 and didn't love it. In fact I've posted in threads about my disappointment with it. Coming from the DCT car, the DCT just feels more angry and violent as mentioned above. The manual honestly is smoother and dare I say a bit softer. BMW created a manual that is very livable. And aimed for those who must have a manual transmission but want some luxury found in high-end daily drivers. The clutch is soft with a high engagement and the shifter is a little too smooth for my liking. Again great for daily driving but missing the characteristics of a true sports car.

Recap of what I don't like about the manual:

1. Soft and high engagement clutch.

2. Soft and somewhat rubbery/numb shift feel.

3. Not as convenient.

4. Slower shifting and loss of boost pressure (?).

5. Slightly inferior fuel economy.

6. No on/off button for rev matching.

7. No launch control.

BUT...the manual overall is good, very good. For better or worse the two cars feel completely different. Granted I went from first model year to the last model, the manual car just feels smoother. I'm loving the long powerful gears in the 6speed. It's definitely not as quick as the DCT but it feels wonderful and pulls for days. On a track I don't think a lot of shifting would be required which is an advantage over other manual competitors. For my liking I will try upgrading the clutch pedal and shifter in search for the perfect drive.

Positives of the manual:

1. Great manual for daily driving. Smooooth...

2. Long gears with 1st gear being usable.

3. Easy to heel/toe.

4. Fun factor.

5. That it's still offered.

6. Rev matching is kinda fun.

There is no right or wrong choice. They are both so good and what's so interesting is that these transmissions make these same cars feel like completely different cars. I'm shocked by this.

Anyone out there on the fence I truly don't believe there is a right or wrong answer. Neither are boring, they both offer different type of fun factor.
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      01-04-2018, 07:09 PM   #3004
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5. I prefer the column shifters found in a GTR

.
So true. I definitely prefer my M3’s DCT overall. The one thing I miss is the column mounted shifters.
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      01-05-2018, 09:13 PM   #3005
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So to beat a dead horse... I have always driven manuals until now for their "do what I mean" factor. I'm happy to report the DCT F80 I drove earlier this week behaved exactly the way I wanted.
Unfortunately I found it a little underwhelming... It was sneaky-fast like a regular turbo 3, not as direct as my E90. Maybe it's too quiet? Maybe I didn't have it in the right throttle mapping? Will sport+ and no dsc fix it?
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      01-06-2018, 11:47 PM   #3006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
The 8 Speed ZF is used in the M235 Factory Racer. I have driven one on track and I have discussed the transmission with the drivers and crew of Turner Motorsports including Will Turner. It shifts so fast that power loss during upshifts is moot. The torque converter is locked up by a clutch mechanism and is out of the picture once the car is in motion.

The conclusion is that the shifts are virtually instantaneous and so smooth and so perfectly rev matched that you can downshift mid corer without upsetting the car. The 8 Speed ZF can also skip gears.


the best part is how they spent every last dollar on engineering a great tranny and 75 cents on the 240p video lol
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      01-07-2018, 07:17 PM   #3007
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Originally Posted by ///My5UV View Post
So to beat a dead horse... I have always driven manuals until now for their "do what I mean" factor. I'm happy to report the DCT F80 I drove earlier this week behaved exactly the way I wanted.
Unfortunately I found it a little underwhelming... It was sneaky-fast like a regular turbo 3, not as direct as my E90. Maybe it's too quiet? Maybe I didn't have it in the right throttle mapping? Will sport+ and no dsc fix it?
Nope, that's how it is and what they do. It's way WAY faster than your E90 (if you run), but it's not as direct, not as old school sport like.
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      01-07-2018, 07:54 PM   #3008
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      01-07-2018, 07:56 PM   #3009
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DCT
the 2018 CP DCT is much smoother, shifts faster, doesn't kick as hard.

personally I kind of like the nutty-bitch 2015 behavior, but it's hard to argue this 2018 isn't better.
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      01-07-2018, 08:48 PM   #3010
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Have other cars with a dual clutch. Really enjoying the M3 with the MT.
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      03-26-2018, 08:31 AM   #3011
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Planning to pick up an F80 ZCP off the lot in the next couple weeks. Already working with some local dealers, but I have to wait until April before any of them will even consider early move up (it's a crap shoot) out of the 335 lease that matures in July.

But anyways, I was dead set on a manual. Just got my wife a PDK, which I'll tune and sometimes drive myself, so we both wanted something contrary to that (she prefers driving stick lol). So I test drove some 6MTs and really liked them. End of story. But then for kicks one day when I had time, I hopped in an F82 DCT for a test drive.

Here was the takeaway that I'm shocked to admit: the DCT wasn't much less visceral or engaging, at least to me. The 6MT auto rev-matches, which I also didn't know the first time I drove it. It wasn't the same engaging experience I remember driving stick. It's a good setup, and I liked it a lot, but comparing it to the DCT for the kind of driving I'll do (aggressive, but still just commuting; very few track days), it just felt like more work, not more fun.

Am I nuts? Am I just old? I really want a manual car in the garage, but holy hell I like that DCT - it's about as good as the PDK in the Macan, which shocks me. It plays with you, it's aggressive, and it's way more capable than I thought it would be. I mean...it was *fun* to drive.

I've probably already answered my own question as to which transmission I should get, but really feel like I'll have regret if I don't get a manual while they still exist. No room for a 3rd car right now, or I'd get an NB Miata without hesitation and scratch the MT itch that way.

Anyone else have this conflict before you got your car?
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      03-26-2018, 08:34 AM   #3012
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Anyone else have this conflict before you got your car?
Nope, never considered DCT. All three of my M3s have had three pedals.
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      03-26-2018, 08:38 AM   #3013
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Anyone else have this conflict before you got your car?
Nope, never considered DCT. All three of my M3s have had three pedals.
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      03-26-2018, 08:49 AM   #3014
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Dct is great and no surprise you got sold if you went into the test drive with an open mind. I went dct with no regrets (but I knew I wanted it from the start).

My small "regrets" are all things I wanted from the start that I talked myself out of, such as the semi individual moonstone paint.

I worry it will be like that for you with the 6mt. Just get it since you wanted it from the start.
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