Chris Harris Reviews F80 M3 on Video

[/// M sa]

Originally Posted by Epoustouflant

I really, really wanted to avoid arguments especially with you as you are excessively quick to resort to name calling, however lots of what you are stating is flat out wrong.

Turbos are not the future - they have been around for decades, anyone calling them so clearly is brand new to turbocharged engines. You need to realize BMW is showcasing in the M4 today what was cost efficient and met the emissions/performance targets in 2012 during development.

In a post financial crisis with shareholder emphasis on cost savings, it made a lot more sense to slightly improve on existing technologies (N54/N55) than to embark upon a hypercar level R&D race.

Turbos are a stop gap / band aid solution until engineers can properly mass produce hybrid systems ala LaFerrari, 918 and the GT3 RSR hybrid system.

Turbos are not any more efficient, all preliminary results show the F8X consumes just as much as the E9X V8 except on highway cruising speeds.

The S55 is barely any lighter than the S65 when taking into account the additional plumbing to accomodate the turbos.

I'm fairly confident anyone would pick a 4.4 S65 with hybrid motors providing instant low torque with exceptional top end and much improved efficiency through electric only usage.

550hp at 8,400 rpm and 450tq at 1,500 sounds like fun doesn't it?

I'm hoping the come back to a V10 in the next G series M5/M6 will showcase such technologies.

You need to realize that most E9X owners probably have the means to upgrade to the F8X, I personally will not as I feel M hasn't brought their A game to this generation and it presents too many compromises.

As Clarkson said, this is a well designed B team car.

PS: I have driven the car, hopefully you consider my opinion valid.

That's your opinion and entitled to it. Why does the 911 turbo the oh and awe of the 911 community (well most of my friends that own 911 non turbos wished they had one)... Look at c63 amg now with turbos/m5/m6/GTR list goes on (street racers that win these days are all turbo cars). So if you don't want to believe turbo is not the way of the future then fine, old turbos had plenty of lag and that's why it wasn't quite popular.

Technology is getting better, turbos will only help and will be around. Don't take my word for it, just a matter of time before you see a lot of cat manufacturers go that rout.

Btw, when someone acts like a troll or acts butt hurt I only call them out on it.

[modkrazy]

Originally Posted by Epoustouflant

I'm fairly confident anyone would pick a 4.4 S65 with hybrid motors providing instant low torque with exceptional top end and much improved efficiency through electric only usage.

550hp at 8,400 rpm and 450tq at 1,500 sounds like fun doesn't it?

I'm hoping the come back to a V10 in the next G series M5/M6 will showcase such technologies.

I would eat a live puppy for a car like that. I expect the next M generation to utilize the new cf production facilities and the lessons learned in the i series to build something really special. The idea that the turbo is a bandaid/stopgap to tide us over is likely pretty accurate, but it's a hell of a bandaid even then.

First I'm hearing of a return to V10. That would be great!

[shoei]

Originally Posted by //M sa

That's your opinion and entitled to it. Why does the 911 turbo the oh and awe of the 911 community (well most of my friends that own 911 non turbos wished they had one)... Look at c63 amg now with turbos/m5/m6/GTR list goes on (street racers that win these days are all turbo cars). So if you don't want to believe turbo is not the way of the future then fine, old turbos had plenty of lag and that's why it wasn't quite popular.

Technology is getting better, turbos will only help and will be around. Don't take my word for it, just a matter of time before you see a lot of cat manufacturers go that rout.

Btw, when someone acts like a troll or acts butt hurt I only call them out on it.

everything happens in cycles... it's just the way of the world... take the fashion industry for example... what was in before is now in again... same thing with turbos... turbos were the rage awhile back, everything was turbo'd... hell, dodge caravan had a 2.0 turbo at one point, lol... technology is (unfortunately) hybrid... F1 cars are a perfect example, they have even incorporated that technology, as does the 918 and the LaFerrari... doesn't mean turbos are going to go the way of the dinosaur, far from it, they'll always be around in some way shape or form, but to sit there and say turbos are the way of the future?? i'm not so sold on it...

[dhoggm3]

For me, driving the F80 has made me think my E93 M3 is anemic. I love NA motors, but I'm seriously looking into supercharging the E93. I used to be a little disappointed with the E93's performance - having lost interstate drag races to Corvettes and the like - but it sounds great and looks special. Now, I think it really needs FI.

So I guess I've sold out, eh? It will still sound really sweet compared to the (pretty good) "angry lawn mower" sound of the F80, and it will still be too heavy to really dance, but by golly it will move!

[MParallel]

Vid is down already...

[s4awd]

Originally Posted by //M sa

That's your opinion and entitled to it. Why does the 911 turbo the oh and awe of the 911 community (well most of my friends that own 911 non turbos wished they had one)... Look at c63 amg now with turbos/m5/m6/GTR list goes on (street racers that win these days are all turbo cars). So if you don't want to believe turbo is not the way of the future then fine, old turbos had plenty of lag and that's why it wasn't quite popular.

Technology is getting better, turbos will only help and will be around. Don't take my word for it, just a matter of time before you see a lot of cat manufacturers go that rout.

Btw, when someone acts like a troll or acts butt hurt I only call them out on it.

Hmm not so sure about that. Porsche enthusiasts don't give a shit about the turbo. The GTR forced Porsches hand to create that monstrosity that drives like ass. It's all about the GT3. Always has been. Always will be. The next step is hybridization. Eg 918. The best Japanese engines were by Honda, NSX, s2000 etc. I don't care what anyone says, turbos will always have lag. Hybrids, will eliminate that and supplement power with efficiency. Turbos are a stop gap. I can't wait until we cross it.

[/// M sa]

Originally Posted by s4awd

Hmm not so sure about that. Porsche enthusiasts don't give a shit about the turbo. The GTR forced Porsches hand to create that monstrosity that drives like ass. It's all about the GT3. Always has been. Always will be. The next step is hybridization. Eg 918. The best Japanese engines were by Honda, NSX, s2000 etc. I don't care what anyone says, turbos will always have lag. Hybrids, will eliminate that and supplement power with efficiency. Turbos are a stop gap. I can't wait until we cross it.

Time will tell but until then turbos are not a stop gap or a bandaid in any sense. BMW might decide the next M3 will be v8 TT but I doubt it since the emission laws are getting more strict. V10? right let's re-visit this thread in 4 years and see whose right, most car makers are headed towards efficiency and not making v10 engines.

[Dalko43]

anyone have a link to another source for the Chris Harris review? The one posted is a dead link.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by s4awd

Hmm not so sure about that. Porsche enthusiasts don't give a shit about the turbo. The GTR forced Porsches hand to create that monstrosity that drives like ass. It's all about the GT3. Always has been. Always will be. The next step is hybridization. Eg 918. The best Japanese engines were by Honda, NSX, s2000 etc. I don't care what anyone says, turbos will always have lag. Hybrids, will eliminate that and supplement power with efficiency. Turbos are a stop gap. I can't wait until we cross it.

I don't care about this debate, but 911 turbos have been around for over 20 years. The gtr came out in 2009 (iirc)

There are also far more 911 turbos on the road than 911 gt3. Though I prefer the gt3 over the turbo, but mostly for reasons other than the engine.

[JoeFromPA]

Turbos recapture otherwise wasted energy. They are not a stopgap. Hybridization is a far more complex and costly form of energy capture and expenditure. Also adds a lot more weight.

Great technology but it is nowhere near as advanced for mass production as turbos at this stage.

Please remember that turbo tech has been around forever but took enormous advances in the last decade with new turbo tech and taking advantage of direct injections cooling advantages. We talk about "turbo lag" will always exist and that's true. But it's no longer meaningful in almost all applications.

I don't disagree that hybrid drive systems are the way of the future. I'm just pointing out that they are nowhere near ready for the reasons named.

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

Turbos recapture otherwise wasted energy. They are not a stopgap. Hybridization is a far more complex and costly form of energy capture and expenditure. Also adds a lot more weight.

Great technology but it is nowhere near as advanced for mass production as turbos at this stage.

Please remember that turbo tech has been around forever but took enormous advances in the last decade with new turbo tech and taking advantage of direct injections cooling advantages. We talk about "turbo lag" will always exist and that's true. But it's no longer meaningful in almost all applications.

I don't disagree that hybrid drive systems are the way of the future. I'm just pointing out that they are nowhere near ready for the reasons named.

Exactly. Saying turbos are only stopgap till hybrids take over is silly. There will be something new/great after hybrids. So are they only stopgap till then?

The key is: what is the best I can do right now?

10 years ago that was the S65. Today it isn't. We can do better (more power and torque and better efficiency).

Technology progresses and the best cars use it and improve.

[consolidated]

Originally Posted by s4awd

Hmm not so sure about that. Porsche enthusiasts don't give a shit about the turbo. The GTR forced Porsches hand to create that monstrosity that drives like ass. It's all about the GT3. Always has been. Always will be.

What? The 1975+ 930 Turbo was a revelation as were the subsequent models. The Turbo was part of the Porsche mystique before the GT3 started with the 996. GT2 and GT2RS's are amazing and rare.

Do you know how many GT3's sell compared to c2/4 and turbo coupes and cabs, it's a very small percentage.

[FTS]

Originally Posted by consolidated

What? The 1975+ 930 Turbo was a revelation as were the subsequent models. The Turbo was part of the Porsche mystique before the GT3 started with the 996. GT2 and GT2RS's are amazing and rare.

Do you know how many GT3's sell compared to c2/4 and turbo coupes and cabs, it's a very small percentage.

Right on! The Turbo is the flagship 911 IMO for Porsche, either in TT or GT2 form. The GT3 only arrived in 1999, 15 years ago, the Turbo has been around 40 years.

By the way, Consolidated, have you received your car yet?

[RingMeister01]

Originally Posted by s4awd

Hmm not so sure about that. Porsche enthusiasts don't give a shit about the turbo. The GTR forced Porsches hand to create that monstrosity that drives like ass. It's all about the GT3. Always has been. Always will be. The next step is hybridization. Eg 918. The best Japanese engines were by Honda, NSX, s2000 etc. I don't care what anyone says, turbos will always have lag. Hybrids, will eliminate that and supplement power with efficiency. Turbos are a stop gap. I can't wait until we cross it.

Well being apart of the Porsche community and actually owning a 997 GT3, you're wrong. Way wrong. To us "true porsche enthusiasts" the gt3 died when the Mezger motor was replaced with the 9A1. The car running on the street is no longer running circuits and the only real Porsches are the Cup cars.

Game. Set. Match.

[RingMeister01]

Originally Posted by FTS

Right on! The Turbo is the flagship 911 IMO for Porsche, either in TT or GT2 form. The GT3 only arrived in 1999, 15 years ago, the Turbo has been around 40 years.

By the way, Consolidated, have you received your car yet?

Yup the Turbo is the flagship. It embodies the latest tech and always the forerunner for the brand.

[Epoustouflant]

Originally Posted by //M sa

Time will tell but until then turbos are not a stop gap or a bandaid in any sense. BMW might decide the next M3 will be v8 TT but I doubt it since the emission laws are getting more strict. V10? right let's re-visit this thread in 4 years and see whose right, most car makers are headed towards efficiency and not making v10 engines.

FYI, Scott26 has already confirmed the return of the V10 in the G series M5 and M6.

[JoeFromPA]

Originally Posted by RingMeister01

Well being apart of the Porsche community and actually owning a 997 GT3, you're wrong. Way wrong. To us "true porsche enthusiasts" the gt3 died when the Mezger motor was replaced with the 9A1. The car running on the street is no longer running circuits and the only real Porsches are the Cup cars.

Game. Set. Match.

Exactly. The Gt3 was the ultimate expression of the Mezger (I've seen Metzger too?!) engine and showroom-track machine, and that's what made it amazing.

However, the turbo was ALSO (and for a longer time) the ultimate expression of the Mezger engine design through 2007-2008. And it was the ultimate 911 GT car, with all of Porsche's technology and design put into a single mass-produced 911 (unlike the gt2).

Just my opinion. I'm not a Porsche-phile, though I've owned one and have books on them sitting around unread

Edit: To clarify, I'm not knocking the newer turbo and gt3 engine design. I'm just stating part of the reasons diehard porsche-philes were absolutely bonkers over the 996 and early 997 turbo and gt3.

[/// M sa]

Originally Posted by RingMeister01

Well being apart of the Porsche community and actually owning a 997 GT3, you're wrong. Way wrong. To us "true porsche enthusiasts" the gt3 died when the Mezger motor was replaced with the 9A1. The car running on the street is no longer running circuits and the only real Porsches are the Cup cars.

Game. Set. Match.

Game set match? Well then 13 guys I know with 911s are all non enthusiast and the turbo 911 sucks! Ok well you win lol.

[RingMeister01]

Originally Posted by //M sa

Game set match? Well then 13 guys I know with 911s are all non enthusiast and the turbo 911 sucks! Ok well you win lol.

Everyone knows those 13 guys are posers

[Carl L]

Originally Posted by M3OW

Your right I don't own one and haven't driven one either. Haven't found a dealership in so cal with one in stock to test drive.
I started a thread asking for opinions and prospective for my next car and one member got banned for attacking me for asking about the negatives of the new car. 2 members pm'd me with their ownership/test drive experience in fear of getting bashed. That came from their mouths not mine.

Give it up already. Imaginary PMs? Claiming "to have owned several cars" since your E92 lease ended in February? Your lies are now lapping you...

[svc0x80]

Originally Posted by s4awd

Hmm not so sure about that. Porsche enthusiasts don't give a shit about the turbo. The GTR forced Porsches hand to create that monstrosity that drives like ass. It's all about the GT3. Always has been. Always will be. The next step is hybridization. Eg 918. The best Japanese engines were by Honda, NSX, s2000 etc. I don't care what anyone says, turbos will always have lag. Hybrids, will eliminate that and supplement power with efficiency. Turbos are a stop gap. I can't wait until we cross it.

You're kidding right?

Because the V6 in the NSX was pretty weak and S2000 has shit for torque.

SR20DETT, RB26DETT, 2JZ, 4G63, 13B were some of the best Japanese engines. I'll take the 911 Turbo over the GT3 any day. The only reason to buy the GT3 is the 40k difference in price.

Also turbo lag is minimal when you use small turbos on high compression engines.

[M3OW]

Originally Posted by Carl L

Give it up already. Imaginary PMs? Claiming "to have owned several cars" since your E92 lease ended in February? Your lies are now lapping you...

Ok thanks for your contribution.