Video: M3/M4 Review by Steve Sutcliffe (Autocar)

[3M TAPE]

Originally Posted by Jockey

No, wrong is only my favorite word when describing your posts.

Sounds "nice" would not be heard often when commenting on the the E46 M3 for example.

Don't get me wrong, the engine is an integral part of M cars. Just like the suspension, brakes, steering, feel, etc. More importantly, how M is able to take all those factors, make them compliment each other, to make a beautifully balanced car.

If you want a car that's all about an engine, go buy a C63 AMG.

Look pal, I'm not here to correct your own M philosophy here.
I can tell you this, there are two opinions in my internet world. Mine and the wrong one.

And how dare you tell me get a C63 AMG? How dare you..

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by Law

@BlackJetE90 said competition, not exclusively DTM.
The Z4 GT3 and Z4 GTE still use a beefed up homologated S65.

True, but it's also 4.4 liters homologated off the GTS.

So a stroked S65.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by Double Bubble

I can tell you this, there are two opinions in my internet world. Mine and the wrong one.

So I see we are of the same philosophy when it comes to the internet then.

And how dare you tell me get a C63 AMG? How dare you..

We should all be so lucky. I honestly would love to have a C63 AMG parked next to my M4 in the garage.

[deletedelete]

Originally Posted by Jockey

So I see we are of the same philosophy when it comes to the internet then.

We should all be so lucky. I honestly would love to have a C63 AMG parked next to my M4 in the garage.

An AMG?! Traitor.

[Law]

Originally Posted by Jockey

True, but it's also 4.4 liters homologated off the GTS.

So a stroked S65.

Correct

The P66 (DTM V8) is a clean sheet design
The P65B40 in the M3 GT was based on the P60B40 of the M3 GTR
The P65B44 is a stroked S65, cross-plane & all

[kevinlevrone]

From all the videos I have seen until now, the new M3 sounds very similar to the N54 engine with BMW Performance Exhaust (minus the upshift and downshift sounds which are completely different due to cylinder shut-off). Yes I did not hear it in person but if you could never replicate sounds via digital means then you wouldn't have MP3 files and could only hear the artists by going to concerts. So I consider the videos sufficient to make my own decision.

After all, I'm not sure how people would reasonably expect it to sound different, since much of the mechanical and induction noise is muffled by the turbine blades (like you can clearly read in the interview with the BMW M exhaust expert) ? It's just the typical BMW I6 twin-turbo sound (which keeps its signature even with different exhaust brands). You can hear this yourself in all the videos. However, the synthetized inside cabin sound sounds like a fake V8 sound, which is really stupid from BMW if you ask me. Hopefully someone figures out where is the fuse that you can remove to disable that stupidity.

However it does not mean it sounds bad at all. An N54/N55 can sound great with the right exhaust.

As for the performance, I am sure the S55 is a monster. It will destroy the S65 in every way but one: throttle response. It will never be as sharp as the S65, because it's a classical twin-turbo engine (with some smart gimmicks). If you read carefully the posts of the owner of the first F80 M3 (which also owns an old V8 M3) you will clearly read this remark. I drove an e92 V8 M3 and multiple N54 cars (Z4M, 1M), and basically I realized that you cannot replicate the V8 M3's throttle response, it's impossible, regardless of the short air paths between the turbos and engine, because the main problem is not the air path length but the turbine inertia itself. The short air paths can help with lag, but not with the same-millisecond throttle response.

[quattr0]

Originally Posted by YungDro

It has a completley different tone from the 335i all im saying is you need to hear it in person but all you butthurt 335i fans just hate on the new M3 / M4 probably cause you cant afford it most likely..

and he's comparing a modded exhaust to stock.. change the exhaust on the new M3 and M4 and it will sound even better.

Wow the guy just compares exhaust notes and u have to pull in comment about 335 fans can't afford M3/M4.
our education system fails lol

[rjd598]

Originally Posted by hwelvaar

All I can say is: the S65 is gone. Forever. It will never come back.

Seriously everyone needs to stop bitching. If you love it buy one and hold one forever(which I doubt most people would do anyway).

[IS3andME]

Originally Posted by Drift Master

M division engineers cant change the laws of physics. Yes they had to make it better and follow the stiff new emission regulations and keep the price tag the same this is an amazing achievement. The sound can always be much better with performance exhaust or after market one for those who want more. Torque is what people feel on the street driving much more than the sound for most. That huge leap in torque is a gonna be awesome. This is a product no one is twisting your arm to buy it. Stop with the winning and if you find a better car for you than buy that one. You can't please everyone but this is a huge leap in the right direction the way i see it.

Yet Mercedes AMG can make a TT V8 sound great. Far better than the S63tu.
And if we talk about TT inline 6 engines, the Supra with the 2jz-GTE and the GT-R with the RB26 both with stock exhaust sound better (to my ears) than S55.

And with Mercedes introducting Inline 6 engines again, we may see how theirs stands up aurally to the S55 and the B58.

I don't think it's whining, it's a legitimate complaint. Many who have tested the car have said the same thing consistently. That should tell you something.

[hwelvaar]

Originally Posted by YungDro

Gone where? you can buy it used..

Gone the way of the dinosaur. None will ever be born again.

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by coloradoe92m3

This guy sums up exactly how I'm feeling about this car. Better in every way but take your aural daily experience IF you were one to like the high revs, and. The lack of special engine noise and seeing 8600 ROMs as you hear it howl like a race car,continues to be well over 50 percent or more of the pleasure I derive daily. So while slower, , when dealing with 400 plus HP cars, I feel there is a point where your not going to use all extra power daily but you will enjoy a special engine noise a la e90 every time in the car.

I'll get a new M3 in couple years for LCI bug certainly won't replace my e92. Just an addition.

Same way I felt about m5 only I hate m5s looks, weight and boring sounding engine. Yet it destroys an e60. But id still take an e60 m5 over it

Same here ... I like the total package but what worries me is the immediacy of the response of the engine. Steve Sutcliffe is a reputable journo and has reviewed every single M car and I value his opinion. In the S65, even if you flex your tiny toe the car responses. I drive a F25 X3 with 30d and the in gear show the neck breaking ... but the new M3/4 could be different given the motorsport genes.

Even if I end up buying one, if I can afford to keep my E92 I'll keep it.

Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony

Yes M's have always been about the total package but they have all had brilliant engines to go along with the chassis. There is no excuse for the halo BMW M car to not have a world class engine. All previous gen M's have had universally praised engines. Excuses shouldn't have to be made for this car. It should look and sound the best and have the best engine...period.

I hope the mapping gets tweaked as the new M3/4 evolves in his life-cycle. I am sure we will see a competition package that not only will se chassis improvement but engine tweak too.

Originally Posted by jbraslins

Agreed. I think M3 was always about being the car that does it all.

What makes a world class engine? Is it peaky top end that makes you want to ring it's neck out every time? The high rpm howl of a NA V8/I6? The direct, instant and linear throttle response?

All those things are amazing, but they are only one side of the coin. I loved my E90 M3, and my E46 M3. Both were amazing on track and as daily drivers. But I will be first to admit there were so many times I just wished for more mid-range for daily driving. When I test drove C63 I realized how different power delivery can also be fun. I've asked myself many times what an engine that is somewhere in between v8 AMG from C63 and S65 would be like? Would it be a better "do it all" engine? And I think BMW asked themselves the same question.

I am certain that new engine is exactly that. I think it will be a gem, just like all M engines always are.

The M3 has got softer and softer and more focus oriented. I think the M2 will be pitched as performance benchmark and what the original M3 was and meant to do. I think smaller the car is it becomes more performance focused. For that reason I will not buy an ///5. It lacks the soul in terms of looks and you are removed from the road. Having said that I don't like big cars.

[hwelvaar]

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

Yet BMW keeps on using it in competition (engines based off the S65).

No, this has been discussed several times. It just happens to be a 4L V8, but is not based off the S65.
And next season, DTM is also going with turbo charging, so that will be the end of those racing V8's as well.

[trucheli]

I have owned four E92 M3s and I can tell you that I am not excited about the M4 like I was back in 2009 when I owned my first M car. The S65 engine was the best engine that BMW has produce for an M car to date. I don't care for turbo engines, I would have rather see a supercharged engine than a bi-turbo. BMW has become the environmentally friendly company compromising performance with luxury, comfort, technology and fuel consumption. I am brand loyalist but I think this time I am looking to jump to the other side to the company that BMW has always been trying to catch up to.

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by Law

Correct

The P66 (DTM V8) is a clean sheet design
The P65B40 in the M3 GT was based on the P60B40 of the M3 GTR
The P65B44 is a stroked S65, cross-plane & all

I love the look of your E92 M3 on your signature. Looks stealth.

[Law]

Originally Posted by hwelvaar

No, this has been discussed several times. It just happens to be a 4L V8, but is not based off the S65.
And next season, DTM is also going with turbo charging, so that will be the end of those racing V8's as well.

Again, @BlackJetE90 said competition & competition doesn't strictly mean DTM.
The DTM engines have nothing to do with street cars.
I've mentioned above the continued development of the S65-based platform in GT series in the Z4 GT3 & GTE.

[Law]

Originally Posted by aussiem3

I love the look of your E92 M3 on your signature. Looks stealth.

E90
But thank you, i try to keep her clean

[mxa121]

Lot of opinions that say the engine makes an M car.
I think history shows that the chassis is the driving component behind an M car. It is the reason you cannot make an M3 from a 335i by adding boost. That debate has been exhausted thoroughly on this site and one conclusion always remains, the "series" car will never handle as well.
Even see that most M3 engines (exception s65) were hopped up versions of the "series" engines, but it was the chassis that defined the car.

If the engine MADE the M car, why is the 1M sought after and reviewed so glowingly? Remember, they did not even pretend that is was an "M" engine, and when people drove it, that did not matter. It was the chassis, LSD, appearance, power combination.

In conclusion, yes, the S65 should be regarded as one of the best production engines, it was magnificent, but to disgrace the new M3 M4 cars as a whole based on the engine character/sound only is a fallacy.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by mxa121

Lot of opinions that say the engine makes an M car.
I think history shows that the chassis is the driving component behind an M car. It is the reason you cannot make an M3 from a 335i by adding boost. That debate has been exhausted thoroughly on this site and one conclusion always remains, the "series" car will never handle as well.
Even see that most M3 engines (exception s65) were hopped up versions of the "series" engines, but it was the chassis that defined the car.

If the engine MADE the M car, why is the 1M sought after and reviewed so glowingly? Remember, they did not even pretend that is was an "M" engine, and when people drove it, that did not matter. It was the chassis, LSD, appearance, power combination.

In conclusion, yes, the S65 should be regarded as one of the best production engines, it was magnificent, but to disgrace the new M3 M4 cars as a whole based on the engine character/sound only is a fallacy.

I'm happy someone else gets it.

[IS3andME]

Originally Posted by mxa121

Lot of opinions that say the engine makes an M car.
I think history shows that the chassis is the driving component behind an M car. It is the reason you cannot make an M3 from a 335i by adding boost. That debate has been exhausted thoroughly on this site and one conclusion always remains, the "series" car will never handle as well.
Even see that most M3 engines (exception s65) were hopped up versions of the "series" engines, but it was the chassis that defined the car.

If the engine MADE the M car, why is the 1M sought after and reviewed so glowingly? Remember, they did not even pretend that is was an "M" engine, and when people drove it, that did not matter. It was the chassis, LSD, appearance, power combination.

In conclusion, yes, the S65 should be regarded as one of the best production engines, it was magnificent, but to disgrace the new M3 M4 cars as a whole based on the engine character/sound only is a fallacy.

It is a combination of all---engine, chassis. Balance. What is it with many of you with this "it's either this or that"? The heart of M cars, has always been the engine. M is known for the engines and chassis. Remember "Motorsport" is not just chassis tuning.

And we all know that the 1M, as good as it is, was a rush job, and aside from putting in the S65, which we all know they would not have done, best alternative and cheapest one, was an already existing engine.

[Blindside_137]

Originally Posted by IS3andME

Yet Mercedes AMG can make a TT V8 sound great. Far better than the S63tu.
And if we talk about TT inline 6 engines, the Supra with the 2jz-GTE and the GT-R with the RB26 both with stock exhaust sound better (to my ears) than S55.

And with Mercedes introducting Inline 6 engines again, we may see how theirs stands up aurally to the S55 and the B58.

I don't think it's whining, it's a legitimate complaint. Many who have tested the car have said the same thing consistently. That should tell you something.

Exactly

[Dave2011M3]

I think his review is right on the money, for us that crave normally aspirated sleds are going to have a hard time with the sound of this car. The rest of the car is going to be brilliant, but still have to drive one and "feel" one before I would ever commit to getting rid of the E92. Right now I have to be honest, I am waiting to see what Ford does with some of its SE Mustangs coming out ala GT350 and such, or if I could afford one I am going back to PCar if I ever sell the E92. I really am hoping I warm up to the F8X, its at a great price point for what you get.

Dave

[deletedelete]

Originally Posted by Jockey

I'm happy someone else gets it.

A great combination doesn't work if one of the components fails. The M4 chassis from the reports is fantastic. The problem is that the other areas which combine to make the M combination such as the engine, sound, and steering are getting mixed reviews.