Paragon P2 Brake Pad Interest?

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by EezyBeezy

In the market for new brake pads for my wife's daily F80.

Are the P2's comparable to oem pads in terms of braking performance?

Unknown. The hope is they’ll be similar to stock with a decent initial bite and fade resistance as well as low noise and low dust. Paragon doesn’t stock the P2 so it’s a 2-3 month delivery time. Porterfield R4-S are similarly priced and have low dust-noise and good fade resistance. Carbotech 1521 is an excellent street pad with good performance and low dust-noise but cost is higher. EBC red and yellow are supposedly good quiet street pads but I have no personal experience with them.

[EezyBeezy]

Gotcha, got my vote.

Would love to retain oem brake performance with little to no brake dust.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by EezyBeezy

Gotcha, got my vote.

Would love to retain oem brake performance with little to no brake dust.

Great! Hopefully with enough interest Paragon would stock some.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by EezyBeezy

Gotcha, got my vote.

Would love to retain oem brake performance with little to no brake dust.

This pad already exists - the Carbotech 1521 pad compound. Here are pics showing brake dust level after ~500 miles of stop-and-go driving:

[F87source]

Ok quick update: Paragon has informed me that they will be ordering a couple sets of P2 pads from winmax Japan. The new pads will take 1-2 months to arrive. I'll keep you guys posted when they arrive, and I do hope to get a set for myself to test and provide additional data for but we will see.

These should be a great option for everyone looking for a low dust pad that should ideally outperform the akebonos and are cheaper than other low dust brake pad alternatives.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by F87source

Ok quick update: Paragon has informed me that they will be ordering a couple sets of P2 pads from winmax Japan. The new pads will take 1-2 months to arrive. I'll keep you guys posted when they arrive, and I do hope to get a set for myself to test and provide additional data for but we will see.

These should be a great option for everyone looking for a low dust pad that should ideally outperform the akebonos and are cheaper than other low dust brake pad alternatives.

Nice! So they decided to order a couple of sets due to you pestering them?

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Nice! So they decided to order a couple of sets due to you pestering them?

Haha seems like it! I also made a poll across a few sub forums and it seems like 4-5 people were interested as well. So they'll likely order enough for those forum members to try + a few extras in case demand picks up after people have had a chance to give their feedback.

[EezyBeezy]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

This pad already exists - the Carbotech 1521 pad compound. Here are pics showing brake dust level after ~500 miles of stop-and-go driving:

Noted. A tad pricier than oem, but will consider.

Originally Posted by F87source

Ok quick update: Paragon has informed me that they will be ordering a couple sets of P2 pads from winmax Japan. The new pads will take 1-2 months to arrive. I'll keep you guys posted when they arrive, and I do hope to get a set for myself to test and provide additional data for but we will see.

These should be a great option for everyone looking for a low dust pad that should ideally outperform the akebonos and are cheaper than other low dust brake pad alternatives.

Nice! I should be able to hold out until then.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by EezyBeezy

Noted. A tad pricier than oem, but will consider.



Nice! I should be able to hold out until then.

Yeah I'm pretty excited! I should be getting a set too, can't wait to try them.


carbotech 1521 costs $524 and Paragon p2 costs $324, so the Paragon pads are $200 cheaper, so imo I'd rather get the Paragon p2's.

[M3SQRD]

Based on the published P2 friction curve you’re getting a pad that will have digressive braking when braking hard. It has a mu of 0.41 at 100 C and it drops to ~0.25 at ~550 C, an 80% reduction in friction/bite. The CT 1521 compound has a linear feel/torque from the beginning to the end of an aggressive braking event. You’ll have confidence in brake performance and pedal feel every time you apply the brake pedal. Excellent brake modulation and fade resistance to 800 F (426 C) before the friction level starts to drop. I’ll gladly pay $200 more for pads that I know will perform well under all street conditions AND produce virtually no dust-noise. I’ve used the 1521 compound in an e46 M3, two AP1 S2000s, AP2 S2000, two e92 M3s, r56 Mini CS, f82 M4 and f22 M240ix so I have a considerable amount of experience with this street pad compound. I’ve also tried street compounds from Ferodo DS2500, Hawk HPS, Hawk +, and Porterfield R4-S. The CT 1521 is superior in braking performance, noise level and dust generation to all of these other performance street pads. This is a case of you get what you pay for. Below are friction curves for D2500, Hawk HPS and Hawk+ compounds - 1521 out performs all of them. Note: I’ve also used race pad compounds from Hawk DTC70, Hawk DTC60, CT XP12, CT XP20, PFC 01, PFC 03, PFC 05 and PFC 11. The 1521 feels like a light race pad compound.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Based on the published P2 friction curve you’re getting a pad that will have digressive braking when braking hard. It has a mu of 0.41 at 100 C and it drops to ~0.25 at ~550 C, an 80% reduction in friction/bite. The CT 1521 compound has a linear feel/torque from the beginning to the end of an aggressive braking event. You’ll have confidence in brake performance and pedal feel every time you apply the brake pedal. Excellent brake modulation and fade resistance to 800 F (426 C) before the friction level starts to drop. I’ll gladly pay $200 more for pads that I know will perform well under all street conditions AND produce virtually no dust-noise. I’ve used the 1521 compound in an e46 M3, two AP1 S2000s, AP2 S2000, two e92 M3s, r56 Mini CS, f82 M4 and f22 M240ix so I have a considerable amount of experience with this street pad compound. I’ve also tried street compounds from Ferodo DS2500, Hawk HPS, Hawk +, and Porterfield R4-S. The CT 1521 is superior in braking performance, noise level and dust generation to all of these other performance street pads. This is a case of you get what you pay for. Below are friction curves for D2500, Hawk HPS and Hawk+ compounds - 1521 out performs all of them.

The goal of the P2 pads is to offer a replacement to the akebonos which faded too easily (to the point of being useless) and offered to little initial bite, also the requirement of being able to take spritited driving and canyon runs was also desired. Based on the friction data the p2's should absolutely be able to do this. The goal wasn't ever to get ds2500 levels of performance or even more, because most people would have a second set of metallic pads for the track that suit that purpose. The goal with the P2 is to start with a very high mu and try to resist fading as much as possible as temps rise, and it does that well. Even at 400C it's going to have a 0.3 mu which is very typical of other ceramic or organic pads and could be right where the akebonos start. That's the entire goal with people who want the P2, still offer useable friction levels even under hard braking conditions.


Now the next points id like to address:

1) we still don't have any mu vs. temp data for the 1521, how do you know they keep the same mu or fade resistance all the way to 426C? This is all based on feel.

2) the p2's drop 39% of their mu at their max rated temp, not sure how you got 80%.

3) the ds2500's don't have any fade up to 500C but they're capable of going to 700C with minimal fade. The ds2500 is a light track capable pad, and no where in the same class as the 1521.

So with all due respect your feedback is based on personal opinion and everyone has difference preferences especially on pads. So I'm not sure you can make that claim that the 1521's out perform all the other pads a universal one based on objective feelings.

we also have no real data to compare with the 1521, so how can we even quantify in what ways the 1521 is better? Could it feel better than the other pads? Sure it can based on the driver, but it can't be a universal claim. Is it more fade resistant? I highly doubt it, there is literally no data from carbotech showing that. Maybe it holds it's mu better from 0-426, but pads like the ds2500 can go far higher than that. So it might be flat within it's temp range but there no guarantees it can hold up as well as the ds2500.

We don't even have true data to compare how the 1521 stacks up to the p2's. For all we know the p2's could be equal to the 1521 in terms of mu at 426C. The p2's start at such a high mu there's a chance it is equal to the 1521 at 426C, and how do you know the 1521s don't take a sharp dive after that? We also can't tell base on hard street driving because you don't know how hot the pads actually got.

I don't like to compare things based on how it feels because feelings are subjective really subjective, between people. Some people like linear pads some people like bitey pads for instance. So without data it's impossible to definitely say the 1521's are better, there stands a chance it's not. Maybe carbotech doesn't post their mu vs. temp charts because the 1521's fall off a cliff last 426C I don't know. But it's so much more difficult to compare without this data.

[M3SQRD]

1. All based on feel and extensive experience with the 1521 pad on many different cars with different power/torque and different weight + actual comparisons between different performance street pads and race pads on different cars + over 30 years of track experience. I’ve had quite a few professional race car drivers, including James Clay, in the passenger’s seat commenting on how good my braking abilities are. You don’t need to see a pad’s friction curve to understand how it performs with temperature. It’s something you actually perceive while actually braking. I’ve never seen a friction curve for a single stock pad from any manufacturer ever yet we’ve all identified their limitations and characteristics both good and bad. Linear vs. progressive vs. digressive braking/torque are things you discern while decelerating with brakes applied. Pad release and modulation are additional characteristics you can feel when applying the brakes. Max operating temperature is another one that you can identify qualitatively without having seen a friction curve in advance. To quantify things, there’s a road I use to test/compare brake pad parameters. It has a 1,900 ft drop in elevation over a 2/3 mile distance with several fast and slow corners. I’ve faded every stock pad on every different car on this section of road. I haven’t come close to fading the 1521 pad used on the same eight cars. In addition, the DS2500 did not fade but both Hawk pads did fade. Finally, the R4-S did not fade. 1521 pedal characteristics were constant from the first corner at the top to the last corner at the bottom as well as all corners in between. Always had a high level of confidence based on pedal consistency. DS2500 performed similarly but had a nonlinear feel, strangely it had both progressive and digressive torque/bite. R4-S felt linear, consistent and confidence inspiring. 1521 performance wasn’t affected by weight. Forgot to mention the PFC z-rated pad earlier. It’s very similar to the DS2500 except it had a linear feel/torque.

2. A COF of 0.45 at 75 C to a COF of 0.2 at 750 C has a % diff of (0.20-0.45)/0.45*100 = -55.6%. I used 0.25 as the reference in my original calculation which is incorrect. So the % change of P2’s mu from max to min COFs is -55.6%

3. How do you know the class the 1521 is in if you have absolutely no actual experience with the pad? I would never use the DS2500, or the 1521, on the track. You think the P3 will perform similarly to the DS2500 even though the DS2500 min COF is 0.35 vs. 0.25 for the P3. The P3, just like the P3, starts to lose friction with temperature at 75 C - both have very digressive pad performance with increasing temperature. What exactly does “light track capable pad” even mean? The elusive dual-use pad doesn’t exist. I have used the same DS2500 pad shape in two AP Racing brake kits and I would not use this compound on a track.

Race pads from most manufacturers do not come with friction curves yet somehow people make it work. Yes, people may like specific things from a pad and if they are able to identify what they like then they can qualitatively and quantitatively compare pads from different manufacturers and/or different compounds. Friction curves for stock pads don’t exist so, based on your data approach, how is it possible to identify a pad that is better or worse than the stock pad? How do you even define the performance of the stock pad?

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

1. All based on feel and extensive experience with the 1521 pad on many different cars with different power/torque and different weight + actual comparisons between different performance street pads and race pads on different cars + over 30 years of track experience. I’ve had quite a few professional race car drivers, including James Clay, in the passenger’s seat commenting on how good my braking abilities are. You don’t need to see a pad’s friction curve to understand how it performs with temperature. It’s something you actually perceive while actually braking. I’ve never seen a friction curve for a single stock pad from any manufacturer ever yet we’ve all identified their limitations and characteristics both good and bad. Linear vs. progressive vs. digressive braking/torque are things you discern while decelerating with brakes applied. Pad release and modulation are additional characteristics you can feel when applying the brakes. Max operating temperature is another one that you can identify qualitatively without having seen a friction curve in advance. To quantify things, there’s a road I use to test/compare brake pad parameters. It has a 1,900 ft drop in elevation over a 2/3 mile distance with several fast and slow corners. I’ve faded every stock pad on every different car on this section of road. I haven’t come close to fading the 1521 pad used on the same eight cars. In addition, the DS2500 did not fade but both Hawk pads did fade. Finally, the R4-S did not fade. 1521 pedal characteristics were constant from the first corner at the top to the last corner at the bottom as well as all corners in between. Always had a high level of confidence based on pedal consistency. DS2500 performed similarly but had a nonlinear feel, strangely it had both progressive and digressive torque/bite. R4-S felt linear, consistent and confidence inspiring. 1521 performance wasn’t affected by weight. Forgot to mention the PFC z-rated pad earlier. It’s very similar to the DS2500 except it had a linear feel/torque.

2. A COF of 0.45 at 75 C to a COF of 0.2 at 750 C has a % diff of (0.20-0.45)/0.45*100 = -55.6%. I used 0.25 as the reference in my original calculation which is incorrect. So the % change of P2’s mu from max to min COFs is -55.6%

3. How do you know the class the 1521 is in if you have absolutely no actual experience with the pad? I would never use the DS2500, or the 1521, on the track. You think the P3 will perform similarly to the DS2500 even though the DS2500 min COF is 0.35 vs. 0.25 for the P3. The P3, just like the P3, starts to lose friction with temperature at 75 C - both have very digressive pad performance with increasing temperature. What exactly does “light track capable pad” even mean? The elusive dual-use pad doesn’t exist. I have used the same DS2500 pad shape in two AP Racing brake kits and I would not use this compound on a track.

Race pads from most manufacturers do not come with friction curves yet somehow people make it work. Yes, people may like specific things from a pad and if they are able to identify what they like then they can qualitatively and quantitatively compare pads from different manufacturers and/or different compounds. Friction curves for stock pads don’t exist so, based on your data approach, how is it possible to identify a pad that is better or worse than the stock pad? How do you even define the performance of the stock pad?

Obviously a dual duty pad doesn't exist, but a dual duty pad for the street and auto x does. Jeff ritter was the one that described the ds2500's as an almost unfadeable pad capable of light track duty. He talks about it here: https://www.essexparts.com/news-blog...te-grand-sport

We're able to identify the stock pads have a high temperature poor performance because the delta between it and an aftermarket pad is so much greater that it becomes noticeable. But when comparing between two aftermarket pads designed for higher performance the delta is more often than not smaller - especially pads competing in the same segment. So to avoid confounding variables like different weather conditions, different tires, different cars and obviously the driver (bias, braking style, etc) having data helps firmly quantify the results. I'm not saying it's impossible to do it just on feeling alone, but you need alot of feedback to ensure the replicate count is high enough to negate any confounding variables, and I don't necessarily know if anyone has tried as many pads as you have on this platform.

I've seen people say they faded the ds2500's on the street and others say they're unflatable on the streets. So does the guy saying the ds2500's fade also say these pads suck because they can't handle his useage on the street? Or is it his driving style? That's an example of the driver making the difference, and where data could help shed the light on the true capabilities of the pad.


Obviously if you're as accredited on the track as you say you are your opinions matter - but when talking about something as subjective as how things feel without a high replicate count to back it up, then we will need data. But at the end of the day the p2's are here to be a better option than the akebonos and be capable of hard spirited driving all for an affordable price. Most people on the street don't even fade the stock pads and only just start to have issues with the akebonos when pushed hard. So it's unlikely many people will want or need to spend the extra $200 on the 1521's for the added performance that they will never use. Remember the goal here is low brake dust and a tad bit more capability on the temp range, we're not talking about trying to get the street greatest pad ever here.


And also at the end of the day it's going to be up to the buyer whether they feel that extra $200 is worth it or not. My only goal here is to try and make more choices available which is always a good thing.


Edit- Btw I just realized this but you guys in the states are really lucky. Paragon offers free USA shipping on orders over $100. So that's going to be really nice for you guys vs. paying that nutty shipping from Europe.

[M3SQRD]

If I’m looking for a street pad that performs as well, or better than, stock and produce considerably less dust and make considerably less noise (although my stock blue setup made zero noise), I’d expect to pay more, not less, than OEM pads. I hope the P2 provides you with everything you’re looking for.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by F87source

Yup the R pads are race compounds and that means it's going to squeal and squeak like crazy on the street so it really isn't ideal for street use. I'm interested in them for track use (I wish they stocked the R7 instead of the R5, I'm afraid the R5 won't have a high enough temp ceiling but we will see), and the p2's are semi metallic and I'm interested in them for street/autox use (so I don't have to keep changing pads all the time, it's pretty much a dual purpose pad). I kind of like paragon's pads, they're really affordable compared to the competition and offer pretty good performance. So I can't wait to try them out this summer.

Have you tried the R5 on the street yet? I'm okay with a little noise, but my PFC-08 were super super loud to the point of embarrassment.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by jmg

Have you tried the R5 on the street yet? I'm okay with a little noise, but my PFC-08 were super super loud to the point of embarrassment.

I just recently received a set of p3's and R5's to test, but I haven't run them yet because we are currently in theiddle of winter and my m2 is in storage.

I plan to test the R5's on the street this summer, but likely not for too many street miles because it's a track pad and I don't want to deal with the extra wear on my rotors and the noise. So I'll report back to you this summer, but I'm pretty sure it's going to be loud like all metallic track pads - that's pretty much unavoidable lol.

[EezyBeezy]

Any update on the P2 pads as far as being in stock soon?

[F87source]

Originally Posted by EezyBeezy

Any update on the P2 pads as far as being in stock soon?

So far no update, but they told me it would be about 1-2 months for the pads to arrive. I believe they made the order with Winnmax around January 9th when I messaged them, so 2 months from that day would be around March 9th. So they should be here soon, I'll touch bases with them at some point to double check for you.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by EezyBeezy

Any update on the P2 pads as far as being in stock soon?

I got an email from Paragon last night and they told me the P2 pads have arrived. It doesn't show as in stock on their website yet but the pads are indeed at Paragon's warehouse. So if anyone wants to purchase a set, I believe you can do so now.

[EezyBeezy]

Originally Posted by F87source

I got an email from Paragon last night and they told me the P2 pads have arrived. It doesn't show as in stock on their website yet but the pads are indeed at Paragon's warehouse. So if anyone wants to purchase a set, I believe you can do so now.

Awesome, thanks for the heads up!

Purchased a set of front & rear pads to try out. Came out to approx $357 shipped to Socal.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by EezyBeezy

Awesome, thanks for the heads up!

Purchased a set of front & rear pads to try out. Came out to approx $357 shipped to Socal.

Yup no worries! I can't wait to get my own set and try them out, won't be able to do so till the summer though.

Let us know what you think of them, and make sure to bed them in properly!

[EezyBeezy]

Originally Posted by F87source

Yup no worries! I can't wait to get my own set and try them out, won't be able to do so till the summer though.

Let us know what you think of them, and make sure to bed them in properly!

Will do! Just received them today already, but probably won't be able to install them for another week or so. Front & rears are colored red with P2 printed on the outer faces and there are no counterweights for everyone's fyi. I'll post up some pics later.