Putting the DCT in P

[Wills2]

I'll admit that after over 160,000 miles with DCT I still get caught out when parking up from time to time.

[eonflux]

Interestingly, it looks like the new M5, which I believe has essentially the same ZF transmission as my F86 X6M had, has a P setting.

If removing P from an automatic transmission was a step forward, why does BMW not do that with every car they make that has an auto transmission, DCT or torque converter?

And why does no other mfr I'm aware of not have a P setting on their dual clutch transmissions?
Even electric cars have P settings, and most don't even have transmissions.

Does someone know why BMW doesn't have a P setting for DCT?
Is it because they thought drivers who came from manuals would really like to park their dual clutch M cars as if they had manuals?

But for DCT owners who don't know how to drive a manual, that would be confusing. Everyone knows how to drive and park a torque converter auto.

That leads me to wonder how many DCT owners don't know how to drive a manual, and that parking the car, the transmission needs to be in a gear after shutting down.

Is it possible that the percentage of DCT owners who don't know how to drive a manual is higher than the percentage of M3s and M4s that are manual? If the uptake rate of manuals is 20% or less on M3s/M4s, my guess is that it's possible that 20% or more of all M3/M4 DCT owners in the world don't know how to drive a manual and explain why a manual car needs to be in gear when parking.
If the manual uptake rate is 10% or less, then I would definitely bet a decent amount of money that a greater percentage of DCT owners can't drive a manual and explain why the car needs to be in gear when parking.

[eonflux]

Originally Posted by M3Tooner

This recently posted video regarding M-DCT might help some of you understand why they did not include a Park button.

Just watched this video.

I don't find the rationale that not having a P setting so that the driver can be reminded that the car is really more like a manual is really that compelling of a reason to screw with a user interface that is ingrained in millions of drivers.

So even though driving the car is nothing like a manual (you don't have to shift, and there's no clutch pedal), it's really a good idea to create a confusing parking process that's more like a manual? Why didn't other dual clutch mfrs think of that?

The reason I don't get confused switching between our car with a TC auto and my manual M3 is that the transmissions operate in completely different ways. To have something so close to a traditional PRND transmission but have quirks that can lead to accidents is not a good user interface approach.

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by eonflux

Another way to look at this issue:

If DCT had a P setting, would there be threads with complaints that it had one?
My guess would be no, that people would just use DCT as any other transmission with P, D, N, and R modes and likely not try to imagine/propose how it would be better without a P mode.

I've not followed 991 forums since I gave up the car, but I don't recall any threads in which there were complaints about a P setting for PDK.

Forums also are a go to area to whine and complain massively.

Read reddit? Or any amount of other forums that seem to like to complain about the smallest of things.

If my mother can put my M3 into park, you can too.

P.S. Not to mention, you can repeat this process with BMW cars w/ ZF transmissions that do have P button. I have tested this before, you don't need a P button. A F30 can completely bypass it's park button if you do exactly what you do with a F80 DCT to a F30 Auto car. It is NOT a big deal.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by eonflux

But if DCT had a P setting, what harm would that cause?

The harm: adding complexity where none is needed.

Why add an additional useless button? Why add an additional useless step when parking the car?

I find BMW has made it beautifully simple to engage P on their DCT. My wife's RS3 has a park position on the gearshift lever. Everytime I take her car, I find it slightly annoying to have to execute that extra step of moving the lever into Park. It reminds me how great the M-DCT has been designed in that respect.

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The harm: adding complexity where none is needed.

Why add an additional useless button? Why add an additional useless step when parking the car?

I find BMW has made it beautifully simple to engage P on their DCT. My wife's RS3 has a park position on the gearshift lever. Everytime I take her car, I find it slightly annoying to have to execute that extra step of moving the lever into Park. It reminds me how great the M-DCT has been designed in that respect.

Not to mention, the F80/F82 doesn't roll from a dead stop, unless your are on an incline.

I fail to see why a P Button is necessary if you even understand how the M-DCT actually works. It behaves like a Manual car. You treat the car like one when you park, always pull the Hand Brake. It is that simple.

I literally do not understand why you need a button dedicated to Park when you can do so without one, and the process is smooth. It's mind boggling.

[eonflux]

Originally Posted by Arcades

Forums also are a go to area to whine and complain massively.

Read reddit? Or any amount of other forums that seem to like to complain about the smallest of things.

If my mother can put my M3 into park, you can too.

P.S. Not to mention, you can repeat this process with BMW cars w/ ZF transmissions that do have P button. I have tested this before, you don't need a P button. A F30 can completely bypass it's park button if you do exactly what you do with a F80 DCT to a F30 Auto car. It is NOT a big deal.

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The harm: adding complexity where none is needed.

Why add an additional useless button? Why add an additional useless step when parking the car?

I find BMW has made it beautifully simple to engage P on their DCT. My wife's RS3 has a park position on the gearshift lever. Everytime I take her car, I find it slightly annoying to have to execute that extra step of moving the lever into Park. It reminds me how great the M-DCT has been designed in that respect.

Originally Posted by Arcades

Not to mention, the F80/F82 doesn't roll from a stop.

I fail to see why a P Button is necessary if you even understand how the M-DCT actually works.

I don't disagree that having fewer steps is in general a better approach.

The issue here is altering a process that for the vast majority of people is different. There was already a convention with PRND that worked and everyone knows how to use. It's great that most/all DCT owners (and their mothers) can easily adapt. But with the X6M, I wasn't confident that every valet kid that took my car, moved my car, and brought my car back to me would not be confused since most other automatics they are driving don't have that quirk.

If the F30 transmission can do that, why doesn't BMW remove the P option to save that extra step? Again, I agree that in general, it would be more efficient to have fewer steps. If BMW moved to having all their automatic transmissions not have a P mode, that would make sense to me. They could explain to everyone that it eliminates one step in the operation of their car, thereby increasing efficiency, and then everyone would eventually understand that BMW does things differently and not be potentially confused. BMWs would just be different, but consistently so.

The benefit/risk ratio here seems a bit low.
As a physician that previously designed software user interfaces for other physicians, I quickly learned that deviating from commonly used conventions often results in unnecessary confusion, sometimes with significant negative consequences. I'm not surprised by complaints on this forum, even where more DCT owners are likely to be power users than the general M3/M4 owner, of something that alters a well known PRND convention.

And not everyone will think the one step saved is worth not being absolutely certain the transmission is in P. I found my X6M annoying in that regard, and never thought to myself when driving other vehicles with P settings that the overall experience in the X6M was improved, or better than PDK. I understand how a dual clutch transmission works, consequently operated the 991 in a manner differently than a torque converter auto, and still prefer having a P setting.

If removing the P setting leads to significant improvements in driving efficiency, I find it hard to believe that Porsche, Ferrari, McLaren, or any other manufacturer of performance cars with dual clutch transmissions didn't adopt that approach. They don't believe the owners of their cars could understand how a dual clutch works, or want their cars to operate closer to how manuals do?

A better solution would have been to not even use DNR (pun intended), and use something else that's more clear to everyone (owners and temporary drivers) that the car doesn't have a typical auto transmission.

Maybe an optional approach that may satisfy everyone would be if BMW adds P to DCT but makes it operate like the F30 ZF transmission, that shutting down the car in D and R shifts into P, so those who like saving a step in the way DCT currently operates will be happy, and those who like to deliberately set to P or can't understand won't be confused.

[allinon72]

I don't get why this is a big deal. Each car is a little different to operate and you adapt. Same thing with the turn signal stalk complaints.

[uniqueMR]

Just leave it in D. Shut it off, it will go to P.
Simple

[CigarPundit]

I actually kind of like the fact that the DCT has this little quirk. It’s a little insider thing that adds to the specialness of the car. I didn’t know about it until I owned one and it’s cool that I do now. It’s never caused me any trouble and I use the hand brake when I park automatically anyway, so one way or the other, when I walk away from the car and lock it up, I know it’s in park.

[Fast4d]

porsche already have 100 buttons. what's one more for P?

[drgmt]

It's a stupid attempt to simulate a manual transmission.

[NPuter]

Originally Posted by eonflux

I don't disagree that having fewer steps is in general a better approach.

The issue here is altering a process that for the vast majority of people is different. There was already a convention with PRND that worked and everyone knows how to use. It's great that most/all DCT owners (and their mothers) can easily adapt. But with the X6M, I wasn't confident that every valet kid that took my car, moved my car, and brought my car back to me would not be confused since most other automatics they are driving don't have that quirk.

If the F30 transmission can do that, why doesn't BMW remove the P option to save that extra step? Again, I agree that in general, it would be more efficient to have fewer steps. If BMW moved to having all their automatic transmissions not have a P mode, that would make sense to me. They could explain to everyone that it eliminates one step in the operation of their car, thereby increasing efficiency, and then everyone would eventually understand that BMW does things differently and not be potentially confused. BMWs would just be different, but consistently so.

The benefit/risk ratio here seems a bit low.
As a physician that previously designed software user interfaces for other physicians, I quickly learned that deviating from commonly used conventions often results in unnecessary confusion, sometimes with significant negative consequences. I'm not surprised by complaints on this forum, even where more DCT owners are likely to be power users than the general M3/M4 owner, of something that alters a well known PRND convention.

And not everyone will think the one step saved is worth not being absolutely certain the transmission is in P. I found my X6M annoying in that regard, and never thought to myself when driving other vehicles with P settings that the overall experience in the X6M was improved, or better than PDK. I understand how a dual clutch transmission works, consequently operated the 991 in a manner differently than a torque converter auto, and still prefer having a P setting.

If removing the P setting leads to significant improvements in driving efficiency, I find it hard to believe that Porsche, Ferrari, McLaren, or any other manufacturer of performance cars with dual clutch transmissions didn't adopt that approach. They don't believe the owners of their cars could understand how a dual clutch works, or want their cars to operate closer to how manuals do?

A better solution would have been to not even use DNR (pun intended), and use something else that's more clear to everyone (owners and temporary drivers) that the car doesn't have a typical auto transmission.

Maybe an optional approach that may satisfy everyone would be if BMW adds P to DCT but makes it operate like the F30 ZF transmission, that shutting down the car in D and R shifts into P, so those who like saving a step in the way DCT currently operates will be happy, and those who like to deliberately set to P or can't understand won't be confused.

That's exactly it. It deviates from the standard, while not being very clear that it does.

I've said this before in this thread, but the transport driver who brought my car down from NJ to Miami did not completely know how to put the car into park, up to when he delivered it to me. He said to me, "I couldn't figure out how to put it into Park, but then I realized "N" means it's in Park."

Slightly concerned, I go back to my car, which is now sitting behind the truck (and just forward of a slight incline that leads to a heavily trafficked road), and there it was sitting in N with the handbrake down (he left the ignition on).

They could've added a P button and still have had it automatically engage it when turning of the car in gear for those who think that's so much more streamlined... Notwithstanding, whatever is saved by not having to push a P button is completely negated by having to push the start/stop button twice with stock coding (once to turn off engine and again to turn off ignition). And then having to push the lock button to unlock all the doors if you have them auto lock.

[EB89]

Why do some DCT BMW have a P button and these don’t? What’s the reason not to just include it

[BMWM5NYC]

I have always looked at it this way. If You look at the DCT as a "Manual transmission with an automatic mode" you have no issue understanding how to "park" the car. If you think of it like an "automatic with a manual mode"(which it is not) you will get confused about parking it, and putting the transmission in the proper position for park.

[Alan l.]

Originally Posted by eonflux

But if DCT had a P setting, what harm would that cause?

The PDK in my 991 had a P setting, and there was never a problem, or was an inconvenience, or seemed nonsensical, etc, even though I knew it had clutches and operated like a manual, like most of my cars prior.

As an automatic form of transmission with D, N, and R settings, a P would make sense. Changing a very familiar user interface with virtually no benefit and with the risk of confusion seems silly.

In my F86 X6M, which had a ZF torque converter transmission, it didn't have a P setting, to mimic the DCT in other M vehicles, I suppose. The usual creep behavior of a TC transmission was also disabled. Seemed really silly to me. Sure, I know how to set the car in P by having it in D or R and shutting it down, but having to explain that to valets, car washers, family, and friends who drove the X6M was frustrating. I think it's a major user interface fail. And getting into an unfamiliar vehicle, it's not always clear to someone when an electronic parking brake is engaged.

Of all the modes on an automatic transmission, P could be considered the most important from a safety perspective so that one knows the car will not move while the engine is running.

For example, if I was dropping off or picking up someone somewhere quickly, and I'm on a slight slope, and may need to help the person, there's no need to shut down the engine for such a short stop. Would have to shift into neutral, set the parking brake, and hope it'll hold, which isn't as confidence-inspiring as having the transmission in P also. In San Francisco, lots of slopes.

Another example: I'm waiting for someone and need the A/C or heater on, and don't want to stay on the brake pedal because someone coming by may think I'm leaving a parking spot and wait needlessly. Having a P mode would be really helpful. And with a family, that happens regularly.

With the 991 PDK, no concerns at all in those scenarios. And I don't see a real advantage for DCT not to have a P mode.

This!!!

It’s not a problem if you arrived somewhere and you just shut the car down. It’s more a problem when you are stopped and need to stay in the car with the engine running for various reasons especially with a family. It took me atleast a month to get use to it in my F85 and there are still times where I stopped to let wife out and totally forgot the car is still in D since it’s not moving and i was distracted helping the kids.. In this situation i have put the shifter over to N then press the ebrake, two steps and the car still gives me a warning to secure the car from rolling if i get out of the car to put something in the trunk. With a Park button that would have been one step and zero warnings.

BMW only did this to try to mimic a true manual gearbox and it’s one of the dumbest things done. Everytime I park the car at a lot I have to explain to the guy parking it how the transmission works. There is no situation where not having a clear P button is safer or better than having one. Willing to bet all new M Autos will revert back to having a P button just like the new M5.

Alan

[Don Molina]

Originally Posted by Alan l.

Willing to bet all new M Autos will revert back to having a P button just like the new M5.

yeah but the new Ms have slushboxes, so the P is normal there

I don't mind it TBH. It's my first DCT and it took me all of 5 sec to get used to it.
The rolling danger bong and notification is annoying but effective. It saved my ass a couple of times.

If i'm getting off the car for a sec or two (unload passengers, put something in the trunk etc), I just turn it off anyway.

[shortseller]

I just watched the above video on putting the dct into Park.

My BMW genius told me to put into N, apply the park brake then tap the start/stop button twice. This works fine putting the car in park but usually the car gives me chimes to not forget the park setting.

In the video above, sorry as my German is rusty , the instructor seems to say you can leave it in gear and just push the off button and the car will go into park, but he doesn’t show the procedure. Does this work as well? Can someone clarify this for me.

The way I was shown by my dealership works fine, but the chimes are a bit annoying especially if I have passengers, which I’m sure seeing the warning, are wondering if I know what I’m doing.

[SD ///M4]

Originally Posted by SD ///M4

How is that more simple than just turning off the ignition while already in gear and putting on the parking brake? See, I just eliminated one step!

Doesn't matter whether I'm driving my 6MT Z4 M Roadster or my M4. I pull into the garage or a parking space while in first gear, I pull up the parking brake, and then turn off the ignition. Two different transmissions, same sequence, same result.

Actually, I just realized that the DCT is even more simple. After I turn off the ignition I don't have to let out the clutch pedal...

Originally Posted by shortseller

I just watched the above video on putting the dct into Park.

My BMW genius told me to put into N, apply the park brake then tap the start/stop button twice. This works fine putting the car in park but usually the car gives me chimes to not forget the park setting.

In the video above, sorry as my German is rusty , the instructor seems to say you can leave it in gear and just push the off button and the car will go into park, but he doesn’t show the procedure. Does this work as well? Can someone clarify this for me.

The way I was shown by my dealership works fine, but the chimes are a bit annoying especially if I have passengers, which I’m sure seeing the warning, are wondering if I know what I’m doing.

I've quoted my previous post above. It's this simple:

1. Pull into your garage or parking space
2. Pull up the parking brake
3. Press the On/Off Button once. This turns off the ignition and immediately puts the car in Park. (Don't put the car into neutral first!)
4. Take your foot off the brake
   • Press the button again if you want. This turns off the car, or just wait until step 5.
   • If you have a manual, take your foot off the clutch (extra step for the die hards)
5. Get out of the car and lock the car. Locking the car turns off the car, same effect as pushing the on/off button twice, except that it also locks the car.

It's literally that freaking simple. It's exactly the same freaking procedure for a DCT or a 6MT. The gist of it is in steps 2 and 3.

If your BMW "Genius" told you to first put the car in Neutral before pressing the on/off button, then they're an idiot, this is totally not necessary. If you do this, you will be in Neutral and when you turn off the ignition with the first button press, the car will complain. Pressing the button the second time will automatically put the car in Park. So just don't do it this way, press the on/off button while still in gear and this will put the car in Park.

If you're watching the video with the German speaker, just turn on closed captioning in your browser and you can read everything he says.

[BMWM5NYC]

Originally Posted by SD ///M4

I've quoted my previous post above. It's this simple:

1. Pull into your garage or parking space
2. Pull up the parking brake
3. Press the On/Off Button once. This turns off the ignition and immediately puts the car in Park. (Don't put the car into neutral first!)
4. Take your foot off the brake
   • Press the button again if you want. This turns off the car, or just wait until step 5.
   • If you have a manual, take your foot off the clutch (extra step for the die hards)
5. Get out of the car and lock the car. Locking the car turns off the car, same effect as pushing the on/off button twice, except that it also locks the car.

It's literally that freaking simple. It's exactly the same freaking procedure for a DCT or a 6MT. The gist of it is in steps 2 and 3.

If your BMW "Genius" told you to first put the car in Neutral before pressing the on/off button, then they're an idiot, this is totally not necessary. If you do this, you will be in Neutral and when you turn off the ignition with the first button press, the car will complain. Pressing the button the second time will automatically put the car in Park. So just don't do it this way, press the on/off button while still in gear and this will put the car in Park.

If you're watching the video with the German speaker, just turn on closed captioning in your browser and you can read everything he says.

It is obvious that people who drive "stick shifts" get the shutdown procedure more easily than people who come from driving "automatics"

[minorfall@yahoo.com]

Originally Posted by FirstF80InSpace

You don't. Just leave it in D. When you park the car and shut it off, it will go to P.

If you want to leave the car running while stopped with your foot off the brake, either leave it in N or D with the parking brake on.

My wife did that the other day and accidentally hit the gas pedal. The car lurched forward and hit me. Fortunately, I did not get hurt. The parking brake is no substitution for being in Park. The engine will overpower the parking brake. It is dangerous to leave it in drive and rely on the parking brake.

[MomoM3]

Been driving exclusively manual BMWs for 15 years. Came here to say I had an F80 DCT for a weekend recently and hated how unintuitive the gear selector was.

I understood there wasn’t a P, my issue was that over the weekend I couldn’t quite figure out how to go from R to 1 logically or easily put into N. I felt clueless. So much so that I didn’t want it in my next car. I felt that the DCT over-complicated the experience.