Guess the M4 CS Sport Auto Supertest ‘Ring time - Update 7:42

[manuelf]

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

Ok first of all, the GT4 stems from a platform from 2012.

Yep - and like CanAutM3 also told you ... the M4 stems also from the 2012 F3x platform ...

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

Also Porsche transmissions whether manual or PDK are better than BMW.

Perfect! So why do you complain about GT4 having Manual and M4 CS having DCT? Porsche with Manual isn't better than ///M with DCT? Maybe you should blame Porsche, that they did offer GT4 only with Manual?

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

Also, the PZero on the 991.2S are normal summer tires, not Cup, so there you are mistaken.

No, I am not mistaken. You don't read carefully. What I said - and this is backed by several car Magazins - most prominently Sport Auto itself - is, that a Pirelli PZERO in N specification (this is the Porsche variant of the PZERO) is clearly above the normal PZERO without N specification regarding dry Performance/traction/stickyness.
So:
PZERO < PZERO N spec < Michelin Pilot Sport Cup2
I simply tried to explain to you, that a PZERO in N spec isn't as far away from a Cup2 as you might think. And this is exactly, what competent testers like Christian Gebhardt from Sport Auto do tell you!

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

They are not like the Pilot Sport Cup 2s the CS has so on the same tires the 991.2S is much faster given even as it sits, was 8 seconds faster than the CS despite having lower hp and lower torque. With the same tires it would be likely 14-15 seconds faster on the Ring.

That would be 991.2 GTS Level with Pirelli Corsa in N0 spec ... which are again clearly above Cup2 Level .l.l. I don't think so.

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

And if you look at the Hockenheim time the 991.2S is 1:09.6 vs 1:11 for the CS.

Have you read the supertest or just looked at the Pictures?
Gebhardt says: "environmental conditions on HHR were bad! 34 degree Celsius air and 55 degree Celsius tarmac. With more healthy conditions the CS would have done a low 1:10 or a high 1:09"

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

The 911 GTS on the same tires as the CS ran 7:22 btw.
The 911 is a GT car. If you look at the overall score and the write ups they tell you all you need to know.
...

I think you do not get the point? No one (me) is denying, that a 991.2 S or 991.2 GTS is faster on track than a M4 CS! The 991.2 GTS had a claimed Porsche-time, which is 13 seconds faster than CS on the ring (7:22 vs 7:35)
I don't know the official P-time of the 991.2 S ... it will be some seconds slower than than the GTS - so I think the Delta between 991.2 S and M4 CS will be about 10 seconds....

But to repeat myself: You are comparing apples to oranges!
Here in Germany the base Price of a 991.2S WITH PDK is the same as the M4 CS with DCT.
If you add all the things to the 991.2 S, which make it fast (Sport Auto supertes configuration) - that is: PDCC. PASM, Rear Achsle Steering, Sport Chrono you are WAY above the Price of a M4 CS.
And since the 911 is a pure sportscar platform, it has much less everyday usability (my example: If I go out tonight, sometimes I do have to take friends with me. Try to do it in an 911). So - in case Porsche wouldn't be a bit faster although having a pure sportscar platform and higher Price, they could Close down their Company!
The point simply is, that the M4 CS although being cheaper and more flexible is not much slower and this is cool.

If you just want to do Porsche Marketing here ... I don't know if there is a better place than a BM´W Forum? Maybe a Porsche Forum?

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by manuelf

Yep - and like CanAutM3 also told you ... the M4 stems also from the 2012 F3x platform ...



Perfect! So why do you complain about GT4 having Manual and M4 CS having DCT? Porsche with Manual isn't better than ///M with DCT? Maybe you should blame Porsche, that they did offer GT4 only with Manual?


No, I am not mistaken. You don't read carefully. What I said - and this is backed by several car Magazins - most prominently Sport Auto itself - is, that a Pirelli PZERO in N specification (this is the Porsche variant of the PZERO) is clearly above the normal PZERO without N specification regarding dry Performance/traction/stickyness.
So:
PZERO < PZERO N spec < Michelin Pilot Sport Cup2
I simply tried to explain to you, that a PZERO in N spec isn't as far away from a Cup2 as you might think. And this is exactly, what competent testers like Christian Gebhardt from Sport Auto do tell you!



That would be 991.2 GTS Level with Pirelli Corsa in N0 spec ... which are again clearly above Cup2 Level .l.l. I don't think so.


Have you read the supertest or just looked at the Pictures?
Gebhardt says: "environmental conditions on HHR were bad! 34 degree Celsius air and 55 degree Celsius tarmac. With more healthy conditions the CS would have done a low 1:10 or a high 1:09"



I think you do not get the point? No one (me) is denying, that a 991.2 S or 991.2 GTS is faster on track than a M4 CS! The 991.2 GTS had a claimed Porsche-time, which is 13 seconds faster than CS on the ring (7:22 vs 7:35)
I don't know the official P-time of the 991.2 S ... it will be some seconds slower than than the GTS - so I think the Delta between 991.2 S and M4 CS will be about 10 seconds....

But to repeat myself: You are comparing apples to oranges!
Here in Germany the base Price of a 991.2S WITH PDK is the same as the M4 CS with DCT.
If you add all the things to the 991.2 S, which make it fast (Sport Auto supertes configuration) - that is: PDCC. PASM, Rear Achsle Steering, Sport Chrono you are WAY above the Price of a M4 CS.
And since the 911 is a pure sportscar platform, it has much less everyday usability (my example: If I go out tonight, sometimes I do have to take friends with me. Try to do it in an 911). So - in case Porsche wouldn't be a bit faster although having a pure sportscar platform and higher Price, they could Close down their Company!
The point simply is, that the M4 CS although being cheaper and more flexible is not much slower and this is cool.

If you just want to do Porsche Marketing here ... I don't know if there is a better place than a BM´W Forum? Maybe a Porsche Forum?

Well, fact is, the CS is much slower despite having more power, more torque and grip pier tires. If the 991.2S ran on the Corsa or Cup 2 it would be in the Hogg 7:2x or about 14-16 seconds faster and that’s a massive delta. I mentioned the GTS time because it has almost the same power and on the same type of tire and shows just how much faster it is. If they are the same price there, it’s a no brained for the S over the CS. Even a base 911 on Cup2 tires would be as fast or faster for cheaper.
I also disagree, the Porsche spec PZERO is not materially better than a non N0 tire, but certainly is not as good as a MPSC2. The PZero Corsa system is about as good as the Cup2 though.
Again, any 911 short of a GT2/3/RS are GT cars. They are more comfortable with much better suspensions than just about anything out there (only Mclaren can match them for comfort). They have continued to push the 911s that way with the 991 gen cars and push the GT cars are the pure sports car. I own a 991S and just sold my M4 and it’s quite obvious how the 911 is stiffer yet leagues better suspension geometry, dampening etc.

[dmboone25]

Was there an official time for the ZCP on the ring? I am just wondering if it was in the 7:47 range, or closer to the stock M4's 7:52 time.

It goes back to the same argument on the GTS vs. GT3 thread - BMW can only do so much to make an F30 based vehicle into a track focused car. Reason being that the car started as a luxury coupe with some sporty attributes.

When you compare a base 911 to a base F30, the basis of that difference is much more clear. That's what we are talking about here - one starts as a sports car, and one is masquerading as one. The times are reflective of that...as you move from base --> S --> GTS --> GT level cars on the Porsche side, versus F30 --> M performance --> base M --> ZCP --> CS --> GTS on the BMW side. BMW in inherently working with a lower ceiling.

Does anyone know what the 991.2 GTS time is? That would be an interesting data point, rather than looking at the MT-only GT4.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

Was there an official time for the ZCP on the ring? I am just wondering if it was in the 7:47 range, or closer to the stock M4's 7:52 time.

AM&S/SA never supertested the Competition Package and BMW never issued an "official" factory time for the CP.

The only reference I could find to a CP 'ring lap time is in the video below (start watching at the 10:00 mark). They mention the CP being about 10 seconds slower than the CS 7:35 factory time. So we have

1. 7:28 GTS
2. 7:35 CS
3. 7:45 CP
4. 7:52 Base*

* I don't believe BMW ever published an "official" factory 'ring time for the base M4. The only lap time mentioned is the one from the AM&S/SA supertest at 7:52. So it is not unreasonable to assume that they achieved a faster lap time during development of the base M4.

Originally Posted by dmboone25

versus F32: M-Sport --> M performance --> base M --> CP --> CS --> GTS on the ///M side.

Fixed that for you

Only the F32/F82 chassis has that many variants. The F30/80 stops at the CP. Further, if you want to consider the entire F32 BMW AG lineup for the F32 chassis, you need to factor all of the engine progression starting with the lowly 418i.

Originally Posted by dmboone25

Does anyone know what the 991.2 GTS time is? That would be an interesting data point, rather than looking at the MT-only GT4.

AM&S/SA Supertest: 7:24

[manuelf]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

...
So we have

1. 7:28 GTS
2. 7:35 CS
3. 7:45 CP
4. 7:52 Base*

Yep. And you have to add, that the 7:35 of the CS were done with CUP2, while the 7:45 of the CP were done with PSS. Now you do the math, what a CP would do with CUP2 ... or better not, because then you would ask yourself, whether the additional price tag of the CS over the CP is worth it ...

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by manuelf

Yep. And you have to add, that the 7:35 of the CS were done with CUP2, while the 7:45 of the CP were done with PSS. Now you do the math, what a CP would do with CUP2 ... or better not, because then you would ask yourself, whether the additional price tag of the CS over the CP is worth it ...

So a 991.2 GTS is faster than a M4 GTS, complete with roll cage and superior tires?

I rest my case.

[manuelf]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

So a 991.2 GTS is faster than a M4 GTS, complete with roll cage and superior tires?

I rest my case.

Yeah ... and a 991.2 GTS is even faster than the track weapon 991.1 GT3! What is wrong with Porsche?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by manuelf

Yep. And you have to add, that the 7:35 of the CS were done with CUP2, while the 7:45 of the CP were done with PSS. Now you do the math, what a CP would do with CUP2 ... or better not, because then you would ask yourself, whether the additional price tag of the CS over the CP is worth it ...

The biggest contributor to the CS' lap time is definitely the tires. I don't think anyone will argue against that. The rest of the CS package is how they made everything work as one cohesive package to make it the best M4 yet in terms of driving experience, as all reviewers have praised so far. If that is worth the price of admission, that is for each individual to determine.

[Parabolica]

There really needs to be some separation between the M4 models. There isn't enough of a difference between the CP and CS to justify the price tag, unless you're a huge fan of the Alcantara interior.

[manuelf]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The biggest contributor to the CS' lap time is definitely the tires. I don't think anyone will argue against that. The rest of the CS package is how they made everything work as one cohesive package to make it the best M4 yet in terms of driving experience, as all reviewers have praised so far. If that is worth the price of admission, that is for each individual to determine.

You name it ... and this means: A CP with rhe Cup tires from the m-perf program and the ABS and MDiff software adaption will be as fast and composed to drive like the CS ...

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by manuelf

You name it ... and this means: A CP with rhe Cup tires from the m-perf program and the ABS and MDiff software adaption will be as fast and composed to drive like the CS ...

Add the EDC, EPS programming and an engine tune, and yes, very possibly.

Independent testing has not shown the CP to offer much acceleration improvements over the base M4. However, the CS has shown to be a fair bit faster acceleration wise. So the engine tune aspect is not negligible.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Add the EDC, EPS programming and an engine tune, and yes, very possibly.

Independent testing has not shown the CP to offer much acceleration improvements over the base M4. However, the CS has shown to be a fair bit faster acceleration wise. So the engine tune aspect is not negligible.

Fair enough, but the tune doesn’t seem to be the “exciting” aspect of the CS if you ask me. That’s easy enough to get via aftermarket options - it’s the changes that would positively affect putting that power down and handling that would make the CS worth it, at least in my opinion.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by manuelf

Yeah ... and a 991.2 GTS is even faster than the track weapon 991.1 GT3! What is wrong with Porsche?

They made the 991.2 GT3 even better - didn’t they shave off like 10 seconds on the Rung time between .1 and .2?

You don’t normally see that level of improvement within a singular generation (991) - and it’s not like they added turbos or something. Porsche is really on their game right now. I’m excited to see what they do with the 718 GT4.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

Fair enough, but the tune doesn’t seem to be the “exciting” aspect of the CS if you ask me. That’s easy enough to get via aftermarket options - it’s the changes that would positively affect putting that power down and handling that would make the CS worth it, at least in my opinion.

Agreed. That's why I generically said AN engine tune, meaning any aftermarket one. The benefit of the CS tune though is that it maintains full factory warranty.

The CS' cup tires are probably the single greatest improvement to help "put the power down".

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Agreed. That's why I generically said AN engine tune, meaning any aftermarket one. The benefit of the CS tune though is that it maintains full factory warranty.

We are in the same page.

Now getting access to the other electronic improvements is likely to be impossible, as I doubt the aftermarket community will bother with it. But there must be something to those improvements (and the tires help, as you’ve mentioned) - my point being that I would love for my ZCP to handle better, but tune and tires are the main things I can upgrade. So that basically lays out whether the CS is worth it from a price perspective for those other improvements.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

We are in the same page.

Now getting access to the other electronic improvements is likely to be impossible, as I doubt the aftermarket community will bother with it. But there must be something to those improvements (and the tires help, as you’ve mentioned) - my point being that I would love for my ZCP to handle better, but tune and tires are the main things I can upgrade. So that basically lays out whether the CS is worth it from a price perspective for those other improvements.

For someone that already owns an M4 with CP, it probably is not worthwhile to change it for a CS for the "upgrade". As you mention, a fair share of the improvements can be made by modding the CP.

For someone like me though, who is looking at replacing his aging 2015 M4 next summer when the warranty expires, the CS can be an interresting package, all depending on pricing and packaging of course.

I also find the weight reduction elements to be of some interest. While I appreciate good audio in a car, I came to realize that, besides on long trips, I barely use the HK system in my car. The dual zone HVAC? I mostly always have the two zones set at the same level. The CF hood is also a neat weight reduction feature and it improves cooling at the track. Plus, the CS will still have the CF driveshaft while the other new M4s won't.

The CS also comes with a CF front lip, diffuser and rear deck lid spoiler as part of the base price. Those are elements that would need to be added to the price of a new CP.

For sure, there will be an ///M tax to pay to get that all inclusive cohesive package. But I think some of it will be recouped in trade-in value later on.

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by Parabolica

There really needs to be some separation between the M4 models. There isn't enough of a difference between the CP and CS to justify the price tag, unless you're a huge fan of the Alcantara interior.

Which is actually a cheaper material to produce and make and much harder to maintain. Love how car manufacturers do that. I still love it.

[eonflux]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

For someone that already owns an M4 with CP, it probably is not worthwhile to change it for a CS for the "upgrade". As you mention, a fair share of the improvements can be made by modding the CP.

For someone like me though, who is looking at replacing his aging 2015 M4 next summer when the warranty expires, the CS can be an interresting package, all depending on pricing and packaging of course.

I also find the weight reduction elements to be of some interest. While I appreciate good audio in a car, I came to realize that, besides on long trips, I barely use the HK system in my car. The dual zone HVAC? I mostly always have the two zones set at the same level. The CF hood is also a neat weight reduction feature and it improves cooling at the track. Plus, the CS will still have the CF driveshaft while the other new M4s won't.

The CS also comes with a CF front lip, diffuser and rear deck lid spoiler as part of the base price. Those are elements that would need to be added to the price of a new CP.

For sure, there will be an ///M tax to pay to get that all inclusive cohesive package. But I think some of it will be recouped in trade-in value later on.

All/most of the reviews I've seen of the CS assert it's more satisfying to drive than the other M4/M3 models. To me, that's as important or more so than lap times. My previous 991 was a thoroughly enjoyable road car, and a significant part of that was how consistently satisfying every element of the driving experience was. And I got an M3 with ZCP to get the most enjoyable experience, and to benefit from BMW's experience with M3s/M4s (and probably lessens learned from the M4 GTS and M2) in the real world in making hardware, software, and calibration/tuning adjustments for a better experience. If a CS M3 comes out in a manual, I'd have to take a look.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

For someone that already owns an M4 with CP, it probably is not worthwhile to change it for a CS for the "upgrade". As you mention, a fair share of the improvements can be made by modding the CP.

For someone like me though, who is looking at replacing his aging 2015 M4 next summer when the warranty expires, the CS can be an interresting package, all depending on pricing and packaging of course.,.

Don't you already have nt01 and camber plates on your current car?

Are you worried there won't be that much of a performance advantage with the new car?

Edit: thanks for posting this OP. I think this m4 CS time is really relevant for many of us since I think it represents the type of mods many do (mild suspension mods, r tires).

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Are you worried there won't be that much of a performance advantage with the new car?

I would still be doing the GC camber plates and running my current Apex/NT01 setup on the CS if I do get it. Further, I would likely get the MP-HAS for it also. Like I said, I don't expect a huge improvement over my current lap times, most of it would come from the added power and lower weight. And also like I said, it is not only about lap times, it is about the cohesive package. If the CS as is as good to drive as all the journos have been praising thus far, it might be well worth it.

I will be replacing my 2015 M4 next summer. If I spec an M4 CP to my liking, it adds up to a smidgen over $100k CAD. Add a CF diffuser, CF front lip, CF rear deck spoiler and it adds ~6500 CAD to the CP price. If the CS adds another 5~7k CAD over that, it will be worth it to me.

[Parabolica]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I would still be doing the GC camber plates and running my current Apex/NT01 setup on the CS if I do get it. Further, I would likely get the MP-HAS for it also. Like I said, I don't expect a huge improvement over my current lap times, most of it would come from the added power and lower weight. And also like I said, it is not only about lap times, it is about the cohesive package. If the CS as is as good to drive as all the journos have been praising thus far, it might be well worth it.

I will be replacing my 2015 M4 next summer. If I spec an M4 CP to my liking, it adds up to a smidgen over $100k CAD. Add a CF diffuser, CF front lip, CF rear deck spoiler and it adds ~6500 CAD to the CP price. If the CS adds another 5~7k CAD over that, it will be worth it to me.

I got mine nicely optioned, individual and CP for under 90$.

[gtr]

Interesting but disappointed that it's only 2 secs faster than my civic type r. Maybe I'll trade my ttrs for this or the M2 cs if the driving feel is the ultimate driving Machine again with much improved ride from the 2015s. I do miss the idrive & nav. So much faster and better than other cars.

TTRS was faster than expected. I was thinking base M4 times with similar hp.