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      10-05-2016, 02:12 PM   #1
daffyduck
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F87 M2 to F80 M3?

Hello everyone,

after having followed this forum for months as a silent reader, I've decided to register and open my first thread.

Before getting to the actual topic a wanna thank you all for this amazing forum.
I can't count the weekends I've spent just reading those hundrets of pages containing amazing individual builds, ED reports and pictures of interesting color/wheels-combinations. I really love it how much you guys love your cars and celebrate them!

Now what's the topic:
I'm currently driving an F87 6MT and like the car a lot - except for some downsides (spoiler-alert: F80 -> solution?).
  1. I miss having front PDC (parking lots aren't exactly what you'd call huge over here!)
  2. I don't like my Dakota leather seats. It's just that...well it get's hot on a long ride...wearing a bright pair of pants (c'mon you all know what I'm talking about) - and in winter they're just damn cold
  3. The coupé doors are 1000 meters long (remember the size of the parking lots?) and you can't just throw a jacket on the rear seats
  4. The X6M rear reflectors are not exactly my taste (although in real life the looks are actually quite okay)
  5. There are no interesting color-choices

The F87 isn't my first BMW, but it's actually my first M and my first sports coupé. I've always had an eye on M3's and I gotta say that those looks including the huge wheel arches and the rest of the bodywork are just perfection. I've spent a lot (a lot!) of time on the config. and I'm currently considering some kind of F80/6MT/Carbonstructure-seats setup. I wouldn't tick to many boxes (and there a dozens of them as we don't have packages, except for nav and ZCP). Color-wise, I'm currently on the YAS-side

What do think? Has anyone driven both F80 and F87? Is the F80 a car for me?
It's not that a don't like my F87. In fact I love the car what it is and how it drives...except for the stuff mentioned above. I should also mention that the car should also be capable of moving potential kids/family from A to B (as the biggest car - no SUV or VAN for 'the big stuff' in the fleet)


Looking forward to your feedback.
Thanks for reading!

Last edited by daffyduck; 10-07-2016 at 02:18 AM.
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      10-05-2016, 02:43 PM   #2
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I went from F80 -> F87 (not by choice, stupid Subaru.) I'm going back to the F80 in two weeks and trading in the F87. I can give you a write-up as to why, just really busy at work today. I'll post as soon as I have time.
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      10-05-2016, 05:31 PM   #3
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Yes, please! I'm happy about every feedback
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      10-05-2016, 05:51 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daffyduck
Hello everyone,

after having followed this forum for months as a silent reader, I've decided to register and open my first thread.

Before getting to the actual topic a wanna thank you all for this amazing forum.
I can't count the weekends I've spent just reading those hundrets of pages containing amazing individual builds, ED reports and pictures of interesting color/wheels-combinations. I really love it how much you guys love your cars and celebrate them!

Now what's the topic:
I'm currently driving an F87 6MT and like the car a lot - except for some downsides (spoiler-alert: F80 -> solution?).
  1. I miss having front PDC (parking lots aren't exactly what you'd call huge over here!)
  2. I don't like my Dakota leather seats. It's just that...well it get's hot on a long ride...wearing a bright pair of pants (c'mon you all know what I'm talking about) - and in winter they're just damn cold
  3. The coupé doors are 1000 meters long (remember the size of the parking lots?) and you can't just throw a jacket on the rear seats
  4. The X6M rear reflectors are not exactly my taste (although in real life the looks are actually quite okay)
  5. There are no interesting color-choices

The F87 isn't my first BMW, but it's actually my first M and my first sports coupé. I've always had an eye on M3's and I gotta say that those looks including the huge wheel arches and the rest of the bodywork are just perfection. I've spent a lot (a lot!) of time on the config. and I'm currently considering some kind of F80/6MT/Carbonstructure-seats setup. I wouldn't tick to many boxes (and there a dozens of them as we don't have packages, except for nav and ZCP). Color-wise, I'm currently on the YAS-side

What do think? Has anyone driven both F80 and F87? Is the F80 a car for me?
It's not that a don't like my F87. In fact I love the car what it is and how it drives...except for the stuff mentioned above. I should also mention that the car should also be capable of moving potential kids/family from A to B (as the biggest car - no SUV or VAN for 'the big stuff' in the fleet)


Looking forward to your feedback.
Thanks for reading!
The M2 is what I was originally going to get. But the M3 lease cost exactly the same so how could I say no.

I love the M2 because:
-N55 engine
-size and design
-price (actual price not marked up)

But since I was going to shell out so much money I had to get the M3 which had more power.

You already have an M2 and I would suggest keeping It. A lot of people wish they had an M2 right now.
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      10-06-2016, 11:52 AM   #5
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You're absolutely right about the F87's popularity and I love that and the appreciation the car receives on the street. You can see the popularity in resale prices, too, but I don't know how long this hype is gonna last ( -> so moving to F80 potentially won't get any cheaper)
I'm currently not using the F87 as a daily, because I have another (smaller) car next to it and save the M for the (rare) nice trips. Point is I want a practical car next year (not talking about switching cars tomorrow) and an F80 would be the (my only one) vehicle to connect daily driver, family car and fun car. Plus you don't wait a year for an F80, so I wouldn't be treating it like a unicorn as I'm currently doing with the F87
The F80 would be my car for driving to work, shopping, vacation, fun stuff. Do you use your cars like that, too? Are you happy with it for daily family things as well as joy rides? (in snowy winter, too?)
And last but not least: do you think the F80 the (overall) better M of those two?



By the way, I love this smilie
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      10-07-2016, 08:30 AM   #6
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I'm really surprised about how little support the M3 is getting, here. Would've expected more people to lean towards F80 in comparison to F87

Am I missing out on something?
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      10-07-2016, 11:14 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daffyduck View Post
I'm really surprised about how little support the M3 is getting, here. Would've expected more people to lean towards F80 in comparison to F87
honestly, it will be very difficult to get an unbiased opinion on the forums. ask the same question in the M2 forums and you will have all of the members circlejerking each other over how the M2 is superior to the M3/M4 in every way.

just go test drive an M3 and see if you like it. the underpinnings are pretty much the same, just different body, engine, and interior.
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      10-07-2016, 12:14 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danniexi View Post
honestly, it will be very difficult to get an unbiased opinion on the forum
Well, if that was the point then there wouldn't be any sense in any "M3/M4 versus"-thread, right?

I'm just asking F80 owners for their experiences and opinions (ideally from those who have driven both)
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      10-08-2016, 11:17 AM   #9
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Driven both but seems like you are nit picking some of the details of the car vs the driving experience? Yes napa feels better but I think they are still get pretty warm while driving. PDC is nice to have though but it's mostly needed in back for me anyway. I think the F80 just looks better as an overall package and if that's what you going for then you may be happier with it.

Oh I felt they basically felt very similar in how they drove but of course the m2 felt a little more agile. But the f80 has The ability to adjust the settings for steering, throttle etc.
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      10-08-2016, 04:49 PM   #10
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There is a reason the M3 cost more. The M2 is a bargain for what you get for the price, but it is no M3/M4.
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      10-08-2016, 05:42 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daffyduck View Post
I'm really surprised about how little support the M3 is getting, here. Would've expected more people to lean towards F80 in comparison to F87

Am I missing out on something?
There are difference that make them appeal to different audiences.
M2 appeals to a slightly younger audience (All the comments I get are from 20 somethings). No kids, not over 5'10", Not-truly a daily driver, and/or if price difference is a hit to your standard of living, then get the M2.

M3 appeals to BMW guys (Most comments come from 30+ year olds.) Have kids, over 5'10", truly a daily driver, and/or price difference makes no real difference to your standard of living then go for the M3 (I have no experience in the M4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by danniexi View Post
honestly, it will be very difficult to get an unbiased opinion on the forums. ask the same question in the M2 forums and you will have all of the members circlejerking each other over how the M2 is superior to the M3/M4 in every way.

just go test drive an M3 and see if you like it. the underpinnings are pretty much the same, just different body, engine, and interior.
There is no good info coming from the M2 boards as they are all set on their purchase and very few have experience in the M2 and it's older 1/2 siblings. I've got over 8K miles in a non-ZCP M3 and over 2500 miles in an M2. I'm looking forward to my return to the M3 (Now ZCP) in a week and a half. Yes, the difference is in the engine and the body/interior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buschy View Post
There is a reason the M3 cost more. The M2 is a bargain for what you get for the price, but it is no M3/M4.
There is definitely a reason it costs more. The question is if it is worth $20k more to you. That $20k is what you are really looking at feature for feature. The suspension is the same (ish, adaptive vs. passive), the steering is the same. I've driven about 100 miles in a ZCP and they fixed the dead spot on center issue and the steering feels just like the M2. In the older M3's it was not as well sorted. The steering is actually quite good. The ZCP is better planted then the early M3's that were tail happy and tricky to drive. The software update for the early M3's got them to 90% of the ZCP, but 90% is not 100%.

In a straight line there is no comparison. The M3 will walk away from the M2. The M3's engine is special, the M2's is "only" great. My take is that the M3 justifies $10k of the difference here.

The M2 is easier to drive and drive fast. Part of this is that the car is MUCH shorter. It is more of a sports car, than the M3's sport sedan. The M3 ZCP is faster. The M2 at 10/10ths is easy and accessible, even to a novice. Not so in the M3. A ZCP M3 at 9/10 is faster than the M2 at 10/10. Going past 9/10 in the M3 you know there is an angry beast waiting for you if you cross the line. With the M2 there isn't.

The interior of the M2 is nothing special, the M3's interior is. I find the M2's seats crippling after a long drive. I found the M3's seats to be very comfortable. I would easily say the M3's interior is $10k better than the M2's.

Convenience of 4 doors. If this is important to you (kids) then there isn't a comparable car on the market to the M3. I also think it's the best looking of the M2/M3/M4 family.

Note: Part of why people associate fun with the M2 is that a majority of them are sticks. The stick adds a character to the M cars that can't be replaced by any level of jiggery pokery from a DCT. Even if it's slower. My F87 is stick and so is my upcoming M3.
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      10-09-2016, 09:34 AM   #12
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Oh, and the M2 attracts every WRX in the world, wanting to race. The M3 doesn't.
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      10-09-2016, 10:00 AM   #13
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I've driven both... on a track...

Here are my simple take always... no need to go further unless you want to waste time.

BMW M2

Pros-

1) Feels Smaller
2) Much easier to drive at the limit.
3) Easier to live with track car if your abilities are limited.

BMW M3

Pros-

1) Far Faster
2) Far better interior
3) Far more capable track car (if your ability is up to par... chances are high they are not)
4) Far better street car due to size and power


Summary-

If you want a track car and have limited abilities, get the M2... for absolutely every other scenario... get an M3.

good day
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      10-09-2016, 11:46 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
I've driven both... on a track...

Here are my simple take always... no need to go further unless you want to waste time.

BMW M2

Pros-

1) Feels Smaller
2) Much easier to drive at the limit.
3) Easier to live with track car if your abilities are limited.

BMW M3

Pros-

1) Far Faster
2) Far better interior
3) Far more capable track car (if your ability is up to par... chances are high they are not)
4) Far better street car due to size and power


Summary-

If you want a track car and have limited abilities, get the M2... for absolutely every other scenario... get an M3.

good day
I've driven both on track too and I have to say that the above is dead on accurate. Especially the bold part. This M3 is not a car to pretend you know how to drive in, the M2 will let you get away with pretending.
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      10-09-2016, 11:52 AM   #15
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Just drive your m2 OP. If you will daily the m3 anyway just get over it and drive your current car

Personally i think the s55 + sedan combo is winner; you'd be happy with it
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      10-10-2016, 10:42 AM   #16
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The M2 has a tad more nose clearance than the F80 since my F87 doesn't scrap the same driveway I was on. The M3 just feels like a large fast car rather than a nimble sports car.

The M2 can be a daily driver but my Macan GTS is a better family car than my old F80. More quality feel and I prefer the driving feel over my 2015 but the ZCP may be a different story. The Macan had tight rear leg room therefore the new Panamera would probably be the best bet if it's within your budget. The Macan is just so much more quite on the inside than the M3. My vote is for the P-Cars. All new Panamera or Macan Turbo with performance pack.
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      10-10-2016, 11:57 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tke743 View Post
There are difference that make them appeal to different audiences.
M2 appeals to a slightly younger audience (All the comments I get are from 20 somethings). No kids, not over 5'10", Not-truly a daily driver, and/or if price difference is a hit to your standard of living, then get the M2.

M3 appeals to BMW guys (Most comments come from 30+ year olds.) Have kids, over 5'10", truly a daily driver, and/or price difference makes no real difference to your standard of living then go for the M3 (I have no experience in the M4)



There is no good info coming from the M2 boards as they are all set on their purchase and very few have experience in the M2 and it's older 1/2 siblings. I've got over 8K miles in a non-ZCP M3 and over 2500 miles in an M2. I'm looking forward to my return to the M3 (Now ZCP) in a week and a half. Yes, the difference is in the engine and the body/interior.



There is definitely a reason it costs more. The question is if it is worth $20k more to you. That $20k is what you are really looking at feature for feature. The suspension is the same (ish, adaptive vs. passive), the steering is the same. I've driven about 100 miles in a ZCP and they fixed the dead spot on center issue and the steering feels just like the M2. In the older M3's it was not as well sorted. The steering is actually quite good. The ZCP is better planted then the early M3's that were tail happy and tricky to drive. The software update for the early M3's got them to 90% of the ZCP, but 90% is not 100%.

In a straight line there is no comparison. The M3 will walk away from the M2. The M3's engine is special, the M2's is "only" great. My take is that the M3 justifies $10k of the difference here.

The M2 is easier to drive and drive fast. Part of this is that the car is MUCH shorter. It is more of a sports car, than the M3's sport sedan. The M3 ZCP is faster. The M2 at 10/10ths is easy and accessible, even to a novice. Not so in the M3. A ZCP M3 at 9/10 is faster than the M2 at 10/10. Going past 9/10 in the M3 you know there is an angry beast waiting for you if you cross the line. With the M2 there isn't.

The interior of the M2 is nothing special, the M3's interior is. I find the M2's seats crippling after a long drive. I found the M3's seats to be very comfortable. I would easily say the M3's interior is $10k better than the M2's.

Convenience of 4 doors. If this is important to you (kids) then there isn't a comparable car on the market to the M3. I also think it's the best looking of the M2/M3/M4 family.

Note: Part of why people associate fun with the M2 is that a majority of them are sticks. The stick adds a character to the M cars that can't be replaced by any level of jiggery pokery from a DCT. Even if it's slower. My F87 is stick and so is my upcoming M3.
Great review. Thanks!
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      10-10-2016, 12:30 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tke743 View Post
There are difference that make them appeal to different audiences.
M2 appeals to a slightly younger audience (All the comments I get are from 20 somethings). No kids, not over 5'10", Not-truly a daily driver, and/or if price difference is a hit to your standard of living, then get the M2.

M3 appeals to BMW guys (Most comments come from 30+ year olds.) Have kids, over 5'10", truly a daily driver, and/or price difference makes no real difference to your standard of living then go for the M3 (I have no experience in the M4)



There is no good info coming from the M2 boards as they are all set on their purchase and very few have experience in the M2 and it's older 1/2 siblings. I've got over 8K miles in a non-ZCP M3 and over 2500 miles in an M2. I'm looking forward to my return to the M3 (Now ZCP) in a week and a half. Yes, the difference is in the engine and the body/interior.



There is definitely a reason it costs more. The question is if it is worth $20k more to you. That $20k is what you are really looking at feature for feature. The suspension is the same (ish, adaptive vs. passive), the steering is the same. I've driven about 100 miles in a ZCP and they fixed the dead spot on center issue and the steering feels just like the M2. In the older M3's it was not as well sorted. The steering is actually quite good. The ZCP is better planted then the early M3's that were tail happy and tricky to drive. The software update for the early M3's got them to 90% of the ZCP, but 90% is not 100%.

In a straight line there is no comparison. The M3 will walk away from the M2. The M3's engine is special, the M2's is "only" great. My take is that the M3 justifies $10k of the difference here.

The M2 is easier to drive and drive fast. Part of this is that the car is MUCH shorter. It is more of a sports car, than the M3's sport sedan. The M3 ZCP is faster. The M2 at 10/10ths is easy and accessible, even to a novice. Not so in the M3. A ZCP M3 at 9/10 is faster than the M2 at 10/10. Going past 9/10 in the M3 you know there is an angry beast waiting for you if you cross the line. With the M2 there isn't.

The interior of the M2 is nothing special, the M3's interior is. I find the M2's seats crippling after a long drive. I found the M3's seats to be very comfortable. I would easily say the M3's interior is $10k better than the M2's.

Convenience of 4 doors. If this is important to you (kids) then there isn't a comparable car on the market to the M3. I also think it's the best looking of the M2/M3/M4 family.

Note: Part of why people associate fun with the M2 is that a majority of them are sticks. The stick adds a character to the M cars that can't be replaced by any level of jiggery pokery from a DCT. Even if it's slower. My F87 is stick and so is my upcoming M3.
Agree with everything except the 5'10" comments. I fit well in both cars and I'm 6'7"
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      10-10-2016, 12:45 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmk08 View Post
Agree with everything except the 5'10" comments. I fit well in both cars and I'm 6'7"
I'm 6' and I find the M2's seats crippling after long drives. Short drives they are fine. The problem is that the top of the shoulder section of the seat pushes into the middle of my shoulderblades. It isn't a "can't fit" issue, it is a comfort one. I should have clarified that.

That said I barely fit in the car (headroom), but I have shorter arms and legs, so my height is in my torso. To a seatback and headroom I'm 6'4". I can't imagine someone 6'7" in there.
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      10-10-2016, 05:01 PM   #20
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Thanks so much for all your replies! Where should I start..

First off, track performance is not #1 on my wish list. I'm not taking my beloved F87 to a track (stupid, I know) - maybe I'd do that with an F80. But before that I'd do some kind of track trainings. Did that before, but some more of them won't hurt!
What appeals to me is the idea of being able to use the F80 for both daily use as well as for the trips I'd use the F87 for. Having nicer colors, interior as well as the 'more exclusive' M-engine are definitely a plus! (although I like the burbling noises the F87 procudes in sexy-mode )

Maybe I'd be able to make use of the F80's purpose (sporty daily driver sedan) more often than with the F87 (sporty sport/track car) Having the more grown-up car would surely be nice, too - although it's kinda funny (and sometimes weird) seeing people in the streets taking pictures of the F87 -every- time I take it for a ride

So the M3 is an awesome performance car. But I read something about less ground clearance - which takes me back to daily usability. Do you take your cars to parking garages or are you better off avoiding steep driveways? Is there anything else I should know? What about snowy mountain road?
What about the manual transmission? Does it feel as great as it does in the F87? Seems like steering feel is worse than in a regular F80? I configured a non-ZCP M3, although I'd be waiting for the M4 LCI, hoping that some changes get transferred to the base M3 as standard equipment

Last but not least, thanks again for reminding me of Porsches, again
They're 'always on my mind' , but I find it interesting that you mentioned the Macan GTS as an alternative to the F80. Not focussing on track performance myself, the Macan still seems like a totally different car concept to me. One thing I find even more interesting is the fact that -while Panamera and Macan are being named- no one's even mentioning the upcoming RS4 B9? First, I thought that Audis are an unpopular topic on this forum, but then a read about RS5s here and there - so that can't the point?

I think I'm gonna take an F80 for a test drive and post my impressions here, afterwards. It's just so hard (=impossible) to find a 6MT one at the dealers
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      10-10-2016, 05:13 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by daffyduck View Post
Thanks so much for all your replies! Where should I start..

First off, track performance is not #1 on my wish list. I'm not taking my beloved F87 to a track (stupid, I know) - maybe I'd do that with an F80. But before that I'd do some kind of track trainings. Did that before, but some more of them won't hurt!
What appeals to me is the idea of being able to use the F80 for both daily use as well as for the trips I'd use the F87 for. Having nicer colors, interior as well as the 'more exclusive' M-engine are definitely a plus! (although I like the burbling noises the F87 procudes in sexy-mode )
The ZCP makes those noises too, and then some.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daffyduck View Post
Maybe I'd be able to make use of the F80's purpose (sporty daily driver sedan) more often than with the F87 (sporty sport/track car) Having the more grown-up car would surely be nice, too - although it's kinda funny (and sometimes weird) seeing people in the streets taking pictures of the F87 -every- time I take it for a ride
I had more people taking photos of the M3 then the M2. I get more WRX/Civic owners wanting to race in the M2. (No thanks.)

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Originally Posted by daffyduck View Post
So the M3 is an awesome performance car. But I read something about less ground clearance - which takes me back to daily usability. Do you take your cars to parking garages or are you better off avoiding steep driveways? Is there anything else I should know? What about snowy mountain road?
The Ground clearance is about 0.4" different. Never had any issues with steep driveways, and mine is steep. There will be a place that makes that untrue, but I never found one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daffyduck View Post
What about the manual transmission? Does it feel as great as it does in the F87? Seems like steering feel is worse than in a regular F80? I configured a non-ZCP M3, although I'd be waiting for the M4 LCI, hoping that some changes get transferred to the base M3 as standard equipment
The Manual is the same piece of equipment. So nothing gained or lost there. As to the steering, the early M3's had some issues with a dead spot on center and its weighting being "weird". The hardware is exactly the same, it is just software. This is fixed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daffyduck View Post
Last but not least, thanks again for reminding me of Porsches, again
They're 'always on my mind' , but I find it interesting that you mentioned the Macan GTS as an alternative to the F80. Not focussing on track performance myself, the Macan still seems like a totally different car concept to me. One thing I find even more interesting is the fact that -while Panamera and Macan are being named- no one's even mentioning the upcoming RS4 B9? First, I thought that Audis are an unpopular topic on this forum, but then a read about RS5s here and there - so that can't the point?

I think I'm gonna take an F80 for a test drive and post my impressions here, afterwards. It's just so hard (=impossible) to find a 6MT one at the dealers
Try to find a ZCP, even if it is DCT. Test it with an eye on the engine, suspension and steering. The stick is exactly the same as the M2.

Edit: Where in Germany? I'm doing my ED next week.
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Last edited by tke743; 10-10-2016 at 05:47 PM.
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      10-10-2016, 05:22 PM   #22
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OP, I think you have it backwards.

Others have shared m2 is easier to track (due to lesser power) yet you won't track that and somehow you will track your hypothetical f80.

And then the Macan is credible alternative to you. You do realize a Macan S is m3 pricing for 328 performance right? yes I get it, cuv are easy to daily drive. My wife has an x135 (close enough in pace to Macan S btw) but it is too slow compared to an m3

Great marketing by bmw and m2 board that m2 is a "track car" while f80 is "fast large car". Lol. We have just discussed here the two are mostly similar other than S55 and interior. Weight is even the same.

If you aren't tracking anyway, how about a 997.1 base model with aero kit appearance package and 328 with m body kit package lease for daily
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