F80 M3 vs. E30 M3 DTM Around Hockenheim (Sport Auto Video)

[3s-a-charm]

Originally Posted by chiplee

See post #64.

I see it now after submitting. Hard to keep up on my iPhone

Still stand by my feelings the F80 driver could use more practice time to smooth out that driving. I'm no expert but the smoother the driving the faster you go (so I'm told).

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by M3 n X5M

Facts:
1) same driver. (NOT CORRECT)
2) similar inputs in both drives...
3) DTM car is... A DTM car. Period.
4) F80 is stock sedan/saloon.
5) video shows the F80 is remarkably close to a very light race car around a tight track.
6) The F80 has insulation, airbags, comfortable seats for every occupant, radio, electronics, airbags, trunk liner, AC, more electronics, street tires, tough wheels to withstand road imperfections etc etc.
7) it is a great comparison and people should accept the older race car is still faster.
8) the F80 is not a LaFerrari or a mclaren. So, it is ok if it is slower.

This is so full of truth (except for the driver part) that it bears repeating. All great points.

I've never driven a DTM car (obvs), but I have been behind the wheel of a couple of dedicated track cars (SCCA racers). A race car makes zero compromises. Zero. None. Not a single one. In the context of a race car, complaining about the jarring suspension in a sports car is laughable. The suspension in a race car is only as soft as it needs to be for the given track surface; no softer. A race car can transition so quickly, because it has virtually no body roll. It settles in to turn geometry in fractions of a second. A road car has to keep its occupants happy. That means isolating them from the road beneath them. These two goals are diametrically opposed. The race car is able to focus solely on delivering the best road holding and handling, without worrying about passenger comfort.

The chassis has been stripped of anything that doesn't serve a purpose. Carpet? Gone. Sound dampening material? Gone. Dashboard? Gone. Passenger seats? Gone. Not to mention, they weld in serious roll cages that increase chassis stiffness by a whole order of magnitude (that's over 100% for the laymen). The fact that the current M3 comes anywhere close to the M3 DTM, with a sensible ride and all the creature comforts you could ever desire, is a real testament to its road holding ability. Obviously, it's sorely lacking in the handling department.

I know there have been lots of jabs thrown at the driver in this video, but he's obviously over-driving the car in the interest of obtaining a fast lap time. In a car that isn't 100% track dedicated, the fastest lap time often doesn't look like the fastest lap time. Going fast is about being at the limit all the time. When you do this in a road car, it can look a little ridiculous. Obviously I can't say for sure that this is the fastest possible around Hockenheim, but I do know that it's a hell of a circuit to push a big, heavy, unfocused (by race car standards) car around.

[bradleyland]

For those that think the driver did a poor job, this guy holds a ton of record laps at Hockenheim Short: http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/hockenheim_short.html

Granted, this is basically his home turf. He's the hot shoe for Sport Auto, who uses Hockenheim Short a lot.

We've all had the axiom "smooth is fast" hammered in to our brains, but sometimes over-driving the car produces the fastest lap. If Christian Gebhardt drives the new M3 around Hockenheim repeatedly, and this is the fastest lap he delivered, then I'm pretty confident that this is the fastest way around Hockenheim; pretty or not.

[Vlad-Miami]

Originally Posted by Neverenoughboost

The E30 DTM is not a fiberglass shell....

While it is not a fi eglass shell, there us still only a shell. All weight removed. F80 was a city version. Pointless comparison + the driver of F80 was very bad, i mean really bad. At some point he was going straight line on third gear from 2000rpm until 6000rpm. Seriously?

[clbmw]

Originally Posted by 3s-a-charm

The 1M was a good indicator that the NA market would absolutely go bonkers over a true M3 CSL now. If ever there was a time to consider reviving the CSL after teasing with the superb GTS - it's now.

I agree

[The long haul]

Originally Posted by qbix

Compare 991 GT3 to 996 Cup lap times and try to find out yourself how a modern sports car should be done.
Next generation 3 series will be even bigger and for sure heavier (for its hybrid architecture) but the fun boys will again admit that sh$@ is chocolate.
Not trying to say that f80 is worse than the e90. The direction of M cars is very wrong.

Be careful, people on here will defend the F80s honor until they die, and make excuses why it doesn't stack up to M cars over 10 years old.
Sorry but this car is useless for anythig else than reasonable acceleration. It's priced wrong and is no M car to me. New isn't always better and this is a textbook example.

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by Neverenoughboost

Be careful, people on here will defend the F80s honor until they die, and make excuses why it doesn't stack up to M cars over 10 years old.
Sorry but this car is useless for anythig else than reasonable acceleration. It's priced wrong and is no M car to me. New isn't always better and this is a textbook example.

And what is it that makes your opinion the gospel? Where is your data to support "it doesn't stack up to M cars over 10 years old"?

[FogCityM3]

Yes, just goes to show you that it's amateur hour and people haven't spent much time on a track (or auto-x for man-handling). To get a road car that is heavy and on road tires on a tight/technical track, you have to man-handle it period. You saw this with Randy in the Mustang vs E92 and the M235i, tons of other examples on 5th Gear where real racing drivers like Plato and Tiff do the exact same thing...it looks awful, is not recommended by your HDPE instructor, but that is the fastest way around a track when you don't have a scalpel to surgically dissect a small technical track.

The driver Christian Gebhardt absolutely knows what he is doing (he does most of the Hockenhim testing for SportAuto like HVS for the N-ring) and is the same driver I referenced in post #12 and he gets an 1:11.9 Hockenheim time in a tuned E92 awork-x M3. Note how that vehicle is also-man handled and he gets an extremely fast time, being faster than the M3 GTS.

People saying Christian Gebhardt doesn't know how to drive are seriously so pro-M4 biased, nothing that you say is going to help them get in touch with reality.

Originally Posted by bradleyland

For those that think the driver did a poor job, this guy holds a ton of record laps at Hockenheim Short: http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/hockenheim_short.html

Granted, this is basically his home turf. He's the hot shoe for Sport Auto, who uses Hockenheim Short a lot.

We've all had the axiom "smooth is fast" hammered in to our brains, but sometimes over-driving the car produces the fastest lap. If Christian Gebhardt drives the new M3 around Hockenheim repeatedly, and this is the fastest lap he delivered, then I'm pretty confident that this is the fastest way around Hockenheim; pretty or not.

[The long haul]

Originally Posted by gmcconn535

And what is it that makes your opinion the gospel? Where is your data to support "it doesn't stack up to M cars over 10 years old"?

Never said it was gospel. I'm not the only one that feels this way... But having owned every single M3 except an E30 M, I'm pretty unbiased and have a good idea what the good ole days of M cars was truly about. The E39 M5 days, the E46 M3 days... The days where a silky smooth high revving engine mattered, and a perfect chassis with a beautiful manual transmission putting you in charge, with excellent quick ratio hydraulic racks...
That's what makes an M car, not this fake noise shit piped into the car, and land yacht sizing!

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by M3 n X5M

It will be largely unreasonable to expect such a light car again, from BMW. With all the safety and comfort features this market segment is expecting, an E30-like auto cannot be achieved.

There are very few cars under 3000 lbs, by any manufacturer, and most BMW consumers today would find those cars unsafe and unwanted. Under 3000 lbs is sub-compact territory.

BMW would probably steer away from this scenario for liability considerations alone.

The BRZ/FR-S has a curb weight of 2776 lbs. Obviously BMW drivers expect a little more in the refinement department, but I refuse to accept that BMW can't do better than they have in the recent past.

Dimensionally, the BRZ is about 8 inches longer, but very similar in width and height. I'm not saying 8 inches isn't a lot of car, but the curb weight for the M235i is 3500 lbs. That's over 700 lbs more, just under 100 lbs per inch of automobile. And this is a car with a base MSRP nearly $20k more.

I do not, for a moment, believe that there is actually $20k more car there, in terms of materials and labor costs. BMW -- and luxury car makers in general -- simply enjoy better margins on their automobiles. BMW can do better. They can do much better, and we shouldn't let them off the hook so easily.

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

The BRZ/FR-S has a curb weight of 2776 lbs. Obviously BMW drivers expect a little more in the refinement department, but I refuse to accept that BMW can't do better than they have in the recent past.

Dimensionally, the BRZ is about 8 inches longer, but very similar in width and height. I'm not saying 8 inches isn't a lot of car, but the curb weight for the M235i is 3500 lbs. That's over 700 lbs more, just under 100 lbs per inch of automobile. And this is a car with a base MSRP nearly $20k more.

I do not, for a moment, believe that there is actually $20k more car there, in terms of materials and labor costs. BMW -- and luxury car makers in general -- simply enjoy better margins on their automobiles. BMW can do better. They can do much better, and we shouldn't let them off the hook so easily.

Before everyone sells their F80/82 and runs out to buy a BRZ, you might want to read this.

http://www.caranddriver.com/subaru/brz#

[The long haul]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

The BRZ/FR-S has a curb weight of 2776 lbs. Obviously BMW drivers expect a little more in the refinement department, but I refuse to accept that BMW can't do better than they have in the recent past.

Dimensionally, the BRZ is about 8 inches longer, but very similar in width and height. I'm not saying 8 inches isn't a lot of car, but the curb weight for the M235i is 3500 lbs. That's over 700 lbs more, just under 100 lbs per inch of automobile. And this is a car with a base MSRP nearly $20k more.

I do not, for a moment, believe that there is actually $20k more car there, in terms of materials and labor costs. BMW -- and luxury car makers in general -- simply enjoy better margins on their automobiles. BMW can do better. They can do much better, and we shouldn't let them off the hook so easily.

Couldn't agree more! People get so butt hurt about this for some reason! I bleed blue and white and I've always supported BMW, but damn I'm done defending them anymore. Such better cars can be had cheaper, and they lack that X factor they once had. I don't give not even two shits about all these luxury items, I just want driving dynamics and minimalistic interiors, like the E46 days. I am just disappointed how much things have changed for the worst. That being said I live the 2er but it's unreasonably heavy as you stated.
True story, I was going to buy a 650 gran coupe as it truly is a beautiful car, I mean damn it's sexy. Then I drove it... Steering sucked, the brake feedback was on par with our senate, but it was fast.
Short story, I bought a Jaguar, and it does everything better entirely!
10 years ago, I'd have bought a E39 M5....
That's my point...

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by Neverenoughboost

Short story, I bought a Jaguar, and it does everything better entirely!

Then why don't you go to the Jag forum and bother them there. Despite your opinion and obvious bias, BMW still makes outstanding automobiles and the F80/82 models are among them. I have owned 18 BMWs in the last 40 years and IMO today's models are so much better in almost every way. You have a right to your opinion and your choice of purchase. I won't say you purchased the wrong car as it is probably what you deserve.

I own a 2006 E36 M3 and absolutey love it, but I have a hard time understanding how it can be a standard that the F80/82 is held up to.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by gmcconn535

Before everyone sells their F80/82 and runs out to buy a BRZ, you might want to read this.

http://www.caranddriver.com/subaru/brz#

I didn't suggest anyone buy a BRZ, I used the car as support for the argument that it is possible to build a car that weighs less than 3000 lbs with current safety requirements. Do I think BMW could make a car like the the M235i at 3000 lbs (still 300 lbs more than the BRZ) without sacrificing anything? No, probably not. I do think they could get to 3000 lbs by some means though.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by gmcconn535

Then why don't you go to the Jag forum and bother them there. Despite your opinion and obvious bias, BMW still makes outstanding automobiles and the F80/82 models are among them. I have owned 18 BMWs in the last 40 years and IMO today's models are so much better in almost every way. You have a right to your opinion and your choice of purchase. I won't say you purchased the wrong car as it is probably what you deserve.

You probably shouldn't have left out the part where he predicted people would be butt hurt

Yes, he's obviously biased. We all are. Bias is our predilection for the things we want. Problem is, everyone wants something different.

[GBPackerfan1963]

Originally Posted by gmcconn535

And what is it that makes your opinion the gospel? Where is your data to support "it doesn't stack up to M cars over 10 years old"?

[AlexN]

Originally Posted by shivaswrath

Different drivers, and the f80 driver was def not as experienced. But great video of the e30!

+1
And the E30 was probably on race tires as well, which could contribute to a few sec difference on their own..

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

he's obviously biased. We all are

Yup and i would add that, at the risk of stating the obvious, BMW knows their market and makes a product they like for big margins.

It's ok to think bimmers (or M cars) "aren't pure anymore" or are too piggy or whatever ... maybe ... - I don't feel a need to justify or defend my purchase in spite of it

I don't understand the whole fanboi thing, i.e., you have to state your love bimmers or show facts ...

[pkimM3r]

bottom line....ones a race car. lol.

some dude prob has a miata race car that is faster LOL.

[pkimM3r]

2-6k someone said. i thought this was a torque monster down low

[TeutonicFlight]

Originally Posted by MKE_M3

Seriously, some people are just f#$%ing dense.

+1

[karussell]

just put the same tires from the e30 on the m3 and give me the keys. i'll sort this debate out. haha. for the record i would pick the e30. i would root for the e30 every time. but kinda hard to take my kids in a dtm car unless i bungee them to the cage....hmmmm