SSOTT

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Lups

God I love the ssott. I fucking love the way we all have views, and then we talk about them!

I'm not a psychologist either, but basically in my view killing a killer gives the survivors nothing, where as we should learn more about how they came to be.

This cop was in broad daylight with a guy who had clear mental issues and who was screaming that he wanted to be shot. At that range, the cop would've spotted a gun.

But, you are forgetting the fight or flight physiological responses to an extremely stressful situation such as this. Adrenaline rush, increased heart rate, fine motor skills go to shit, tunnel vision etc etc. I don't care what kind of training you have (unless the highest of special forces) this affects nearly everyone.

That being said, you guys could still be right and he saw it wasn't a gun. Do we know it wasn't one by the way? Has that info been released?

[Lups]

Originally Posted by minn19

But, you are forgetting the fight or flight physiological responses to an extremely stressful situation such as this. Adrenaline rush, increased heart rate, fine motor skills go to shit, tunnel vision etc etc. I don't care what kind of training you have (unless the highest of special forces) this affects nearly everyone.

That being said, you guys could still be right and he saw it wasn't a gun. Do we know it wasn't one by the way? Has that info been released?

I'm not. Remember I go around looking for trouble at times? I love the adrenaline rush, I just shake later.

I had been informed minutes before that there was a terrorist driving around his area. He basically was over the first rush, so he was actually being rational.

I absolutely agree in the training, that's my main argument in the good guy with a gun shit. But I mean I watched the clip, and the officer was reacting to the physical signs the suspect was giving. He did epically, and all cops needs to do as well as he did but

If he thought he had a gun, the guy would've been killed and that's fine. Clearly the cop had seen some action or really good training to spot the non existent gun but none of that actually matters.

Canadian cops according to my view are trained not to shoot but to talk, and since stealing a tv is no reason to fire a gun, they are not actively thinking that they might have to kill someone today.

Our ways are strange to you guys but basically our cops work on authority. They don't need to shoot us to make us comply. The public is trained to comply. Europeans can't get shot by a cop because the cop just felt like it, but as a rule: We don't fuck with the cops since they have authority. We don't fear them, but they don't fear us. It Is a different world and Canada is a part of mine.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Lups

I'm not. Remember I go around looking for trouble at times? I love the adrenaline rush, I just shake later.

I had been informed minutes before that there was a terrorist driving around his area. He basically was over the first rush, so he was actually being rational.

I absolutely agree in the training, that's my main argument in the good guy with a gun shit. But I mean I watched the clip, and the officer was reacting to the physical signs the suspect was giving. He did epically, and all cops needs to do as well as he did but

If he thought he had a gun, the guy would've been killed and that's fine. Clearly the cop had seen some action or really good training to spot the non existent gun but none of that actually matters.

Canadian cops according to my view are trained not to shoot but to talk, and since stealing a tv is no reason to fire a gun, they are not actively thinking that they might have to kill someone today.

Our ways are strange to you guys but basically our cops work on authority. They don't need to shoot us to make us comply. The public is trained to comply. Europeans can't get shot by a cop because the cop just felt like it, but as a rule: We don't fuck with the cops since they have authority. We don't fear them, but they don't fear us. It Is a different world and Canada is a part of mine.

This is what I was saying earlier about the US not being a good comparison to Canada or Europe when it come to LE etc. The US as we know has about the most violent culture in the developed Western World. Different responses to different threats. Again, not to say that US LE doesn't have some major problems with excessive force and other things.

As for his fight or flight response, training as you know does help, but it doesn't take it away. I'm doubtful the radio call got him over the first rush of it. This is from my own experiences and many seasoned officers I've talked to that have seen combat as well.

This story fascinates me and I hope some of the story comes out as to how and why this specific officer acted this way. This is definitely where I think much can be learned from either way (to use deadly force or not to).

[Lups]

Originally Posted by minn19

This is what I was saying earlier about the US not being a good comparison to Canada or Europe when it come to LE etc. The US as we know has about the most violent culture in the developed Western World. Different responses to different threats. Again, not to say that US LE doesn't have some major problems with excessive force and other things.

As for his fight or flight response, training as you know does help, but it doesn't take it away. I'm doubtful the radio call got him over the first rush of it. This is from my own experiences and many seasoned officers I've talked to that have seen combat as well.

This story fascinates me and I hope some of the story comes out as to how and why this specific officer acted this way. This is definitely where I think much can be learned from either way (to use deadly force or not to).

Yeah, training doesn't take it away, so he was a fighter.

I had a light shining to my son's mouth today, so as usual I agree with you since I always do (a bombs excluded! We need to chat about them at some point!) but all that anxiety meant in my case today that the surgeon and the dentist actually made him open his mouth, he counted his permanent teeth, and... Then we spent the rest of the 45 minute appointment talking about flat earth society.

He gave me a lollipop. I apparently did really well! The boy got one too.

So I'm in some mom adrenaline high now still so you can't expect me to be rational.

Ha! I won! Suck it Minnie!

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Lups

Yeah, training doesn't take it away, so he was a fighter.

I had a light shining to my son's mouth today, so as usual I agree with you since I always do (a bombs excluded! We need to chat about them at some point!) but all that anxiety meant in my case today that the surgeon and the dentist actually made him open his mouth, he counted his permanent teeth, and... Then we spent the rest of the 45 minute appointment talking about flat earth society.

He gave me a lollipop. I apparently did really well! The boy got one too.

So I'm in some mom adrenaline high now still so you can't expect me to be rational.

Ha! I won! Suck it Minnie!

When do I ever?

[Lups]

Originally Posted by minn19

When do I ever?

Well, considering I once pm'd you, probably never after that.

I had a horrible experience that day tho. My stupid kids had their stupid kid friends that were brought to this world by my stupid friends here, and their moms had told them to do my nails. You try writing with an inch nails?!!!?

My "Sorry" thread got locked down as a precaution! I think they want to keep my brand of crazy limited.

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by Real Dodger 2.0

The guy had just killed ten people.

But his van was now inoperable and he was on foot. The question isn't "was he a deadly threat 5 minutes ago" (yes), it is whether he is a deadly threat RIGHT NOW. And if he is not, you don't shoot him no matter what he did 5 min ago. And this officer assessed (correctly, it seems) he was not a deadly threat even if the guy really wanted to be portrayed as one.

Originally Posted by Lups

Yeah, and he was more valuable alive to be studied.

Originally Posted by minn19

Maybe, maybe not.

I don't know about studying him, but we have a system of rules that apply to people who do bad things - even really really terribly awful things - and it is better to go through that system than just shoot him.

Originally Posted by Lups

Canadian cops according to my view are trained not to shoot but to talk, and since stealing a tv is no reason to fire a gun, they are not actively thinking that they might have to kill someone today.

Our ways are strange to you guys but basically our cops work on authority. They don't need to shoot us to make us comply. The public is trained to comply. Europeans can't get shot by a cop because the cop just felt like it, but as a rule: We don't fuck with the cops since they have authority. We don't fear them, but they don't fear us. It Is a different world and Canada is a part of mine.

well, yes and no.

I'd like to say we are all part of that, but it isn't the case. American law enforcement and views towards offenders influences us a lot. We have police who shoot too quickly - just a couple of years ago there was a big trial in Toronto where a cop shot a kid on a streetcar who posed no real threat. To much outrage, cop was acquitted (edit; I am corrected. he was acquitted of murder but convicted of attempted murder. right. I remember now. the legal reasoning was pretty specific that essentially the first volley of shots was justified (not murder) but the second was not (so that was an attempted murder) and it wasnt murder on the second volley because volley #1 would have been fatal anyway.). I've done enough police disciplinary files to know that police often default to the cliche 'I had to hit the guy because I feared for my officer safety' etc.

BUT I also know that policing is much more effective when police are listened to because of their authority and not because of fear. Fear leads to resentment and....well, then you get a nasty cycle where people resent the police and do nasty things to them and that makes the police draw even more into an 'us vs them' approach with the public. That thin blue line is very real and very dangerous. We probably do a better at controlling the deadly force from our gun-toting neighbors to the south but....we do lots of shitty things too.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by (((myzmak)))

I don't know about studying him, but we have a system of rules that apply to people who do bad things - even really really terribly awful things - and it is better to go through that system than just shoot him.

BUT I also know that policing is much more effective when police are listened to because of their authority and not because of fear. Fear leads to resentment and....well, then you get a nasty cycle where people resent the police and do nasty things to them and that makes the police draw even more into an 'us vs them' approach with the public. That thin blue line is very real and very dangerous. We probably do a better at controlling the deadly force from our gun-toting neighbors to the south but....we do lots of shitty things too.

I think you are taking what I said just a bit out of context. I never said it was ok to just shoot him and I’ve never been for summary executions.

The bottom part I 100% agree with.

We won’t agree, but I don’t agree he was no longer a threat. There is no that could be fully known until he was in handcuffs. Many things could’ve gone differently.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Lups

Our ways are strange to you guys but basically our cops work on authority. They don't need to shoot us to make us comply. The public is trained to comply. Europeans can't get shot by a cop because the cop just felt like it, but as a rule: We don't fuck with the cops since they have authority. We don't fear them, but they don't fear us. It Is a different world and Canada is a part of mine.

This is interesting because in November in Austria we took luxe myDriver from the airport into town and the driver was super chatty - he was telling us EVERYTHING about Vienna. We passed some cops and he said the cops are everywhere (that's true) and if they ask us to do anything we should immediately do it.

My wife said: "how do we know they're cops?"

ChattyKen: "they wear uniforms"

wife: "no, I mean what if they stole the uniform"

ChattyKen: [ 60 seconds of stunned silence ]

She blew the guy's mind. Only time he stopped talking the whole trip. He couldn't even process it.


Anyway, on another note, and I'm just catching up with this story but did this guy really mow people down because he wasn't getting laid? He was, "involuntarily celebate"?

[minn19]

Some hope for humanity and their actions towards each other. This is pretty cool.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/24/us/de...rnd/index.html

[Captain Blood]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

This is interesting because in November in Austria we took luxe myDriver from the airport into town and the driver was super chatty - he was telling us EVERYTHING about Vienna. We passed some cops and he said the cops are everywhere (that's true) and if they ask us to do anything we should immediately do it.

My wife said: "how do we know they're cops?"

ChattyKen: "they wear uniforms"

wife: "no, I mean what if they stole the uniform"

ChattyKen: [ 60 seconds of stunned silence ]

She blew the guy's mind. Only time he stopped talking the whole trip. He couldn't even process it.


Anyway, on another note, and I'm just catching up with this story but did this guy really mow people down because he wasn't getting laid? He was, "involuntarily celebate"?

Apparently it's some big cult that was on Reddit

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Real Dodger

Apparently it's some big cult that was on Reddit

There's an online cult of people not gettin any?

Do they know porn is online too? Just checking for a friend ...

[Kidscollege$]

Originally Posted by (((myzmak)))

So here is 30 seconds of perspective from this side of the border:

(1) Obviously, massive story here. Newspapers are full of the expected 10 pages of coverage, etc, etc. That is expected.

(2) Of more interest is what is missing: even in the first hours, nobody was running around looking at Muslims/blaming Islamic terrorism/etc. For the most part, everyone sat back and let the information come out about who the driver was.

....that is significant because Ontario (the province where this happened) is in the midst of a provinicial election and the guy most likely to win is Doug Ford. Doug is the serially-lying brother of late-great-crack-smokingly famous mayor of Toronto, Rob Ford. Doug is often compared to Trump and they are similar. Both dumb, both populists, both have an absolute aversion to the truth. BUT even with all that, Doug didn't play the 'Islamic terrorist card'. Can you imagine many GOP politicians in the midst of an election not going there?

Why didn't he? Multiculturalism. Toronto is a very diverse city. Less than 50% of European ancestry. What we call 'visible minority' (ie: not white. South Asian, east Asian, African, middle eastern, latin american, etc) are over 50% of the population.

So appealing to white fears is a good way to alienate lots of voters.


(3) Who was the driver? Probably the sort of person who you guys play with on real OT. Socially awkward computer guy.

Here is apparently is praising the 'incel' rebellion.

incel = involuntarily celebate.

huh. who knew there was a word for the condition i had in high school? wonder if they have an alumni group....

some indication he may have had Asperger syndrome.

(4) The cop. Gonna disagree with Minnie here. What this cop did in NOT shooting is far better than the easier act of shooting.

First, a couple points: had he shot, it would likely have been justified. You've probably seen it, but this is the video to watch:

You'll see from 15 seconds in that the suspect is clearly trying to be shot (suicide by cop). He says he has a gun and repeatedly makes quick draw movements to get the cop to shoot him.

I think in the USA he would have been very dead. Hell, I think a good number of cops here would have shot and probably been justified.

BUT: part of being a cop (the hardest part, in fact) is recognizing that you arent just in a neverending struggle with 'bad guys' - some endless war. Your actual job is to protect peace and order and citizens and the rule of law. That means you don't always shoot. In fact, ideally, it means you shoot only when you have no other choice.

Could a cop have felt threatened enough to shoot? sure. But a better cop would hold the shot (which this one did)

ALSO: While I think many canadian cops may have also shot, they would still be less likely to shoot than an american cop. Why? Guns and fear. We have fewer guns so, while they exist and are issues in the minds of our police, it is still less of an issue than an officer would consider there. Down south, it is hard to believe a cop would doubt a guy saying 'I have a gun'. Here? It is not that hard to believe because the odds of the guy actually having a gun are much lower. That is just the effect of gun control.

And that ties to fear. Bad things happen to people and police here, but with less frequency. We don't have a media outlet whipping up fear like you do. It exists and some do whip it up, for sure, but again not as much. That lesser 'fear' and the lack of the same 'state of permanent war' that many american officers feel when dealing with suspects means they are handled a bit differently.

Put all of that together and the actions of the officer become that much easier to see.

He made a hard decision, a decision not all would have made, but it was absolutely the right one.

Yeah...he would have had 15 holes in him...

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by minn19

I think you are taking what I said just a bit out of context. I never said it was ok to just shoot him and I’ve never been for summary executions.

The bottom part I 100% agree with.

We won’t agree, but I don’t agree he was no longer a threat. There is no that could be fully known until he was in handcuffs. Many things could’ve gone differently.

Yeah, sorry - wasnt meaning to suggest you were pro-summary execution. My point is that IF possible and ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL it is always better to capture and prosecute than kill. It isnt always possible and it isnt always reasonable or remotely fair to expect an officer to make that choice.

This guy apparently did not see this guy as an imminent threat to himself - either he is stone cold, he took the time to see the phone was just a phone and not a gun or whatever. But whatever it was, if he legitimately thought he could capture the guy without violence it was the right call.

Originally Posted by GrussGott

There's an online cult of people not gettin any?

Do they know porn is online too? Just checking for a friend ...

I know, right?

they call themselves 'incel'. back in the day, i called that 'my friends and me'

[Arcades]

random car for the day:

My Porsche dealership, CA has invited me to test drive a Turbo S because he wants me to be more of a Porsche person than a BMW one lol.

[Captain Blood]

Originally Posted by Arcades

random car for the day:

My Porsche dealership, CA has invited me to test drive a Turbo S because he wants me to be more of a Porsche person than a BMW one lol.

You own a Porsche dealership? What kind of deal can I get?
Can I get one of these pictured below?

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by Real Dodger

You own a Porsche dealership? What kind of deal can I get?
Can I get one of these pictured below?

Not mine, just one I'm very familiar with.

Wish I did o.O

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Real Dodger

You own a Porsche dealership? What kind of deal can I get?

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Kidscollege$

Yeah...he would have had 15 holes in him...

It would've been less from me as that fight or flight reaction is real and it is a bitch to try and deal with/work through.

But, I get what you are obviously trying to say.

[Lups]

Originally Posted by minn19

It would've been less from me as that fight or flight reaction is real and it is a bitch to try and deal with/work through.

But, I get what you are obviously trying to say.

Here they teach the cops to aim at legs or arms, basically the cheap bits to stitch back together. That's a quote from a cop I know.

Good morning everybody! It is the best fucking day ever! I slept through the night, and most of the day! I really have to work on my ways to handle the damn jaw fixers.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Lups

Here they teach the cops to aim at legs or arms, basically the cheap bits to stitch back together. That's a quote from a cop I know.

Good morning everybody! It is the best fucking day ever! I slept through the night, and most of the day! I really have to work on my ways to handle the damn jaw fixers.

Real nice so you just cripple them for life. We were always trained for center mass/ We did train in situations though when they were wearing body armor or had cover etc.

Sorry to hear about all of the worrying, but glad it sounds like it is working out better than you thought. Unless I misread something.

[Lups]

Originally Posted by minn19

Real nice so you just cripple them for life. We were always trained for center mass/ We did train in situations though when they were wearing body armor or had cover etc.

Sorry to hear about all of the worrying, but glad it sounds like it is working out better than you thought. Unless I misread something.

The kid is doing epically fine, I'm suffering from both patheticness (totally should be a word) and extreme parental cowardism.

I think we have like twenty incidents per year where a cop fires their weapon. More cops are killed here by mooses in a year than by criminals in a decade.

I can check but I think that is quite accurate.