Motorsport January 2017 M3 CP and M2 featured in Car of the year test

[M.a.r.k.u.s]

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

I am talking sport auto, where they do a standardized test with the same driver.

Porsche also ran quicker than Sport auto in their factory testing but those are not what I'm taking about since those are "factory" times.

991.2 Carrera S - 7:34
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/s...-11404996.html


M4 GTS - 7:37
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/s...-11522657.html

Ah gotcha. Didn't know you were only talking about their results.

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by dmk08

A Jb4 Map1 Civic M3 can.

Not on a racetrack track . Not even close .

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by M.a.r.k.u.s

Ah gotcha. Didn't know you were only talking about their results.

It's the only thing we have close that is standard with the same driver. Obviously head to heads like Motortrend where Randy Pobst drives are also a good way to compare same day and same driver. I also look at who's driving. Randy knows how to wring out a car so those speak volumes.

[Devilzmantis]

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

Not true. The 991.2S is a huge upgrade over a Zcp car given even the GTS can't run with a 991.2S despite advantages in power, torque and tires most notably.

Standard M4 - 1:12.3
M4 zcp hockenheim - 1:11.9
M4 GTS (cup tires) - 1:09.6
991.2S-1:09.6

All cars dual clutch.

Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca (driver Randy Pobst)

M4 -1:39.69
M4 GTS (cup tires)1.37.66
991.2S - 1.36.44

That is nowhere even close to being close. Same goes for a conceptual ring given the 991.2S ran 7:34, the M4 GTS 7:37 (cup tires) and the M4 7:54. The overwhelming evidence outside this bogus test only supports that the 991.2S performs better than anything M has to offer.

I'll take sport auto and also Randy Pobst over some random or lesser known person.

ZCP is nowhere near GTS territory. In all honesty, they usually don't post zcp times because overall the Zcp isn't much of an improvement over the non zcp cars, which it isn't.

But then again we are comparing a 135K car vs a 75K car that's been out for 3 years. The 991.2 is top in its class but at a very high price so it shouldn't have a problem out performing the M3.... but that 2nd laptime on Motorsport?

The only way i'm jumping over to Porsche is the 991 Turbos... now that's a big performance jump.

The GTS is a rare limited production. It's just a ridiculous priced collectors car in my opinion.

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by Devilzmantis

But then again we are comparing a 135K car vs a 75K car that's been out for 3 years. The 991.2 is top in its class but at a very high price so it shouldn't have a problem out performing the M3.... but that 2nd laptime on Motorsport?

The only way i'm jumping over to Porsche is the 991 Turbos... now that's a big performance jump.

The GTS is a rare limited production. It's just a ridiculous priced collectors car in my opinion.

Well, drivers do make a difference and clearly this guy couldn't drive that well. That's where I'll take a lap done with someone who has a proven track record like Randy Pobst who can wring out any car to its limit and put down the best lap time for ANY car he drives.

991.2S can be had for well under 135k. There are also a lot of people paying 90-100K for m3/4s optioned including comp pack and ceramics. Not much of a difference at that point especially given the big difference in performance.

Btw - I also think the 718 times are likely the most impressive but no way that car is faster than a 911S either.

As for the GTS, really has no excuse. It's flat out slower than a car that has by and large 100 less hp, 100 less tq and doesn't have nearly as capable of tires.

[blschaefer1]

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

Well, drivers do make a difference and clearly this guy couldn't drive that well. That's where I'll take a lap done with someone who has a proven track record like Randy Pobst who can wring out any car to its limit and put down the best lap time for ANY car he drives.

991.2S can be had for well under 135k. There are also a lot of people paying 90-100K for m3/4s optioned including comp pack and ceramics. Not much of a difference at that point especially given the big difference in performance.

Btw - I also think the 718 times are likely the most impressive but no way that car is faster than a 911S either.

As for the GTS, really has no excuse. It's flat out slower than a car that has by and large 100 less hp, 100 less tq and doesn't have nearly as capable of tires.

Several points here. I am the former owner of a 991 C2S and a 981 Cayman S, by the way. I find this whole comparative debate between 991's and M3/M4's almost comical, for a variety of reasons.

1. An M4 priced at $75-80K is equipped SIMILARLY to a 991.2S priced at $125-130K. No getting around that.

That makes the Porsche approx. 60% higher. At that price delta, you should be comparing the 991S to cars such as McLaren 570S/GT, Acura NSX, R8, and Porsche's own Turbo models. All are approx. 50% more than a standard 991S. Porsche is getting a little too proud their cars and the price reflects it.

2. Agree that a 991S should go around most tracks faster than an M3/M4, particularly in the hands of an experienced RACING driver. Perhaps the guy in this test is not the most talented driver on earth. But neither are MOST of us in the general public. So let's agree this guy is an average driver. He drove the M3 around that long track faster than the 991.2S, simple as that. He found the M3 easier to drive faster.

3. Related to the point above, the likely reason the 718S was faster is that it is EASIER to drive fast than the 991.2S. I found this to be the case when I made the move from my 981 Cayman S to the 991 C2S. The reasons are obvious, regarding weight, balance etc. So for the AVERAGE driver, the 718S is likely the better track tool.

4. Having said the above, these are all STREET cars, and the debates for some reason always come back to lap times. Most of us never, or rarely, track our cars. They spend the vast majority of the time on the street.

I can tell you as a street car, I strongly prefer my M4 to my former 991C2S. It offers a better ride, more utility, better infotainment, less creaks and rattles, less road noise, easier ingress/egress, less chin scraping, and in MY opinion, more FUN being the German muscle car that it is.

Porsche's are fantastic cars, don't get me wrong, but they have many compromises that come with them. The Cayman platform is an incredible sports car, but the cabin is cramped, ride stiff, and it's noisy. The 991/S is more refined, but vastly more expensive and still suffers from some of the same ills. And Porsche's pricing practices (purchase and maintenance) are placing these cars far out of reach for most, and there are some more exotic choices that are now in scope too.

Spend your money wisely, and enjoy.

[Powerslide]

This is by far one of the best-written posts I've read in a long time - spot on in every respect - Bravo!!!

[Devilzmantis]

Originally Posted by blschaefer1

Several points here. I am the former owner of a 991 C2S and a 981 Cayman S, by the way. I find this whole comparative debate between 991's and M3/M4's almost comical, for a variety of reasons.

1. An M4 priced at $75-80K is equipped SIMILARLY to a 991.2S prices at $125-130K. No getting around that.

That makes the Porsche approx. 60% higher. At that price delta, you should be comparing the 991S to cars such as McLaren 570S/GT, Acura NSX, R8, and Porsche's own Turbo models. All are approx. 50% more than a standard 991S. Porsche is getting a little too proud their cars and the price reflects it.

2. Agree that a 991S should go around most tracks faster than an M3/M4, particularly in the hands of an experienced RACING driver. Perhaps the guy in this test is not the most talented driver on earth. But neither are MOST of us in the general public. So let's agree this guy is an average driver. He drove the M3 around that long track faster than the 991.2S, simple as that. He found the M3 easier to drive faster.

3. Related to the point above, the likely reason the 718S was faster is that it is EASIER to drive fast than the 991.2S. I found this to be the case when I made the move from my 981 Cayman S to the 991 C2S. The reasons are obvious, regarding weight, balance etc. So for the AVERAGE driver, the 718S is likely the better track tool.

4. Having said the above, these are all STREET cars, and the debates for some reason always come back to lap times. Most of us never, or rarely, track our cars. They spend the vast majority of the time on the street.

I can tell you as a street car, I strongly prefer my M4 to my former 991C2S. It offers a better ride, more utility, better infotainment, less creaks and rattles, less road noise, easier ingress/egress, less chin scraping, and in MY opinion, more FUN being the German muscle car that it is.

Porsche's are fantastic cars, don't get me wrong, but they have many compromises that come with them. The Cayman platform is an incredible sports car, but the cabin is cramped, ride stiff, and it's noisy. The 991/S is more refined, but vastly more expensive and still suffers from some of the same ills. And Porsche's pricing practices (purchase and maintenance) are placing these cars far out of reach for most, and there are some more exotic choices that are now in scope too.

Spend your money wisely, and enjoy.

I couldn't say it better myself.

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by blschaefer1

Several points here. I am the former owner of a 991 C2S and a 981 Cayman S, by the way. I find this whole comparative debate between 991's and M3/M4's almost comical, for a variety of reasons.

1. An M4 priced at $75-80K is equipped SIMILARLY to a 991.2S priced at $125-130K. No getting around that.

That makes the Porsche approx. 60% higher. At that price delta, you should be comparing the 991S to cars such as McLaren 570S/GT, Acura NSX, R8, and Porsche's own Turbo models. All are approx. 50% more than a standard 991S. Porsche is getting a little too proud their cars and the price reflects it.

2. Agree that a 991S should go around most tracks faster than an M3/M4, particularly in the hands of an experienced RACING driver. Perhaps the guy in this test is not the most talented driver on earth. But neither are MOST of us in the general public. So let's agree this guy is an average driver. He drove the M3 around that long track faster than the 991.2S, simple as that. He found the M3 easier to drive faster.

3. Related to the point above, the likely reason the 718S was faster is that it is EASIER to drive fast than the 991.2S. I found this to be the case when I made the move from my 981 Cayman S to the 991 C2S. The reasons are obvious, regarding weight, balance etc. So for the AVERAGE driver, the 718S is likely the better track tool.

4. Having said the above, these are all STREET cars, and the debates for some reason always come back to lap times. Most of us never, or rarely, track our cars. They spend the vast majority of the time on the street.

I can tell you as a street car, I strongly prefer my M4 to my former 991C2S. It offers a better ride, more utility, better infotainment, less creaks and rattles, less road noise, easier ingress/egress, less chin scraping, and in MY opinion, more FUN being the German muscle car that it is.

Porsche's are fantastic cars, don't get me wrong, but they have many compromises that come with them. The Cayman platform is an incredible sports car, but the cabin is cramped, ride stiff, and it's noisy. The 991/S is more refined, but vastly more expensive and still suffers from some of the same ills. And Porsche's pricing practices (purchase and maintenance) are placing these cars far out of reach for most, and there are some more exotic choices that are now in scope too.

Spend your money wisely, and enjoy.

Certainly appreciate the post. I currently own both cars but do not have the same conclusions. My 991S doesn't have single rattle or creak and soaks up bumps in ways the my M4 gets jarred and can't cope. M4 also is plagued with rates and so has EVERY one I've been in or tested. The 911's manual, both the shift and the clutch engagement are simply in another stratosphere they're that much better. The sound is incredible whereas the m4 leaves too much to be desired. It's just an overall nicer car to be in and drive to me at any time, street or track. And it also has something referred to as steering feel which is always a big selling point. The new 718 cars are very easy to drive fast but the 991 models are too, which is why they put down lap times faster than many other much more powerful cars, like an almost entry level 911 beating the best car M division has ever created. I also find the price point given those and the much more limited production than an M to be well worth every penny.
Problem with the "more exotic" choices is, they still are not better drivers cars and driven them anything more than a couple thousand miles per year and they tank in value. The 911 is probably the best damped car in the world and the ride quality shows and makes it easily daily drivable whereas you cannot do that in the more "exotic" cars. There's a reason why they continue to raise the price and still have no problem selling them for whatever price they desire. They are near as close to the perfect GT car you can buy, run to and from the track and lay down some incredible fast and consistent times all day. I wouldn't dare do that in a Ferrari, Lamborghini or many of the other "exotics" without worry of what would happen to the car.

[termigni]

wait M3 is lighter than M2??

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by termigni

wait M3 is lighter than M2??

The text is a translation. I have to assume they mean "feels less heavy". An M2 does not weigh much less than an M3, so it's quite possible less power and softer suspension makes it seem "heavier".

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by termigni

wait M3 is lighter than M2??

It's by and large the same weight as an M3/4.

[No Boost]

6MT M2 curb weight is 141 lbs lighter than 6MT M4 per C&D. Negligible but lighter nonetheless.

[blschaefer1]

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

Certainly appreciate the post. I currently own both cars but do not have the same conclusions. My 991S doesn't have single rattle or creak and soaks up bumps in ways the my M4 gets jarred and can't cope. M4 also is plagued with rates and so has EVERY one I've been in or tested. The 911's manual, both the shift and the clutch engagement are simply in another stratosphere they're that much better. The sound is incredible whereas the m4 leaves too much to be desired. It's just an overall nicer car to be in and drive to me at any time, street or track. And it also has something referred to as steering feel which is always a big selling point. The new 718 cars are very easy to drive fast but the 991 models are too, which is why they put down lap times faster than many other much more powerful cars, like an almost entry level 911 beating the best car M division has ever created. I also find the price point given those and the much more limited production than an M to be well worth every penny.
Problem with the "more exotic" choices is, they still are not better drivers cars and driven them anything more than a couple thousand miles per year and they tank in value. The 911 is probably the best damped car in the world and the ride quality shows and makes it easily daily drivable whereas you cannot do that in the more "exotic" cars. There's a reason why they continue to raise the price and still have no problem selling them for whatever price they desire. They are near as close to the perfect GT car you can buy, run to and from the track and lay down some incredible fast and consistent times all day. I wouldn't dare do that in a Ferrari, Lamborghini or many of the other "exotics" without worry of what would happen to the car.

We actually agree an many things related to 991's. Several checks in the plus column versus M3/M4 - steering feel, overall handling, grip, sound (particularly with PSE). But I think you are missing one important point - they SHOULD be better in some some areas to justify the 60-70% price premium! This is not a trivial price delta. You could buy an M2 for the difference!

The 911 is a cash cow for Porsche and I just think they are becoming radically overpriced. Options are absurdly expensive, the interiors/infortainment are dated, and fit/finish while good is not class leading. Have you sat in an AMG-GT? I have - they feel like a $130k car, the 991 no longer does.

Question - what suspension does your 991 have? Mine had Sport PASM, and on the softest setting is was still very harsh - and riding 20mm lower than stock caused many chin scrapes (I had Sport Design facia which did not help). My 981 Cayman S had standard suspension and rode softer.

We completely disagree on rattles/road noise. There is even verbiage in the 911 owners manual warning about creaks and rattles being 'normal' or something to that effect. I have several friends and neighbors that also have P-cars (including a 991 GT3) and this a running joke amongst us. The stock P Zeros they put on the 991's suffer bad tire roar and no lining in the rear fender wells mean you hear every pebble hitting the rear exhaust. No excuse on that - certainly an effort to save five pounds.

Anyway - to each his own, I've been down the 911 road and if I were to drop $130k on another car it would be a different brand.

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by blschaefer1

We actually agree an many things related to 991's. Several checks in the plus column versus M3/M4 - steering feel, overall handling, grip, sound (particularly with PSE). But I think you are missing one important point - they SHOULD be better in some some areas to justify the 60-70% price premium! This is not a trivial price delta. You could buy an M2 for the difference!

The 911 is a cash cow for Porsche and I just think they are becoming radically overpriced. Options are absurdly expensive, the interiors/infortainment are dated, and fit/finish while good is not class leading. Have you sat in an AMG-GT? I have - they feel like a $130k car, the 991 no longer does.

Question - what suspension does your 991 have? Mine had Sport PASM, and on the softest setting is was still very harsh - and riding 20mm lower than stock caused many chin scrapes (I had Sport Design facia which did not help). My 981 Cayman S had standard suspension and rode softer.

We completely disagree on rattles/road noise. There is even verbiage in the 911 owners manual warning about creaks and rattles being 'normal' or something to that effect. I have several friends and neighbors that also have P-cars (including a 991 GT3) and this a running joke amongst us. The stock P Zeros they put on the 991's suffer bad tire roar and no lining in the rear fender wells mean you hear every pebble hitting the rear exhaust. No excuse on that - certainly an effort to save five pounds.

Anyway - to each his own, I've been down the 911 road and if I were to drop $130k on another car it would be a different brand.

In all honesty, I do think they lead on interior quality. I've been in my fair share of Ferraris, Lamborghinis and stuff like Rolls and have never been impressed by the quality especially given the price. A Panamera though, forget it, just impeccable and better than all of those.
Cars oriented to sport will usually make more noise. I actually hate fearing what it sounds like with rocks kicking up under my M4. I'm not concerned about hearing or tires roar because any sports car has that to a degree especially a 911 that weighs 3200 lbs and is very light vs a rather heavy 3600 lb m car that shouldn't. My concern is the panels, the ambient lights trim or cheap door cards that just make noise. Even the quality of the motors in the seats you can tell the Porsche ones are smoother in their operation. I'm picky though and notice small things. My and all the M4s I've been in had the same issues. My 911 has none of that whatsoever. I have PASM with PDCC and also have ceramics and 20 inch sport design wheels with the extra 20 mm lower ride but the standard bumper vs the sport design. Agree on the tires as pirellis wear horribly, but my ride in that car is far better in any way over the harsh and crashy ride of my M4. The 911 soaks everything up with ease and continues whereas (and this is common) the m4 just has very little rebound control. Given it's 20s vs 19s says a lot.
All cars are quite expensive these days, especially Porsche when you have an almost unlimited list of customizable options. My 911 sticker was over 140k. Love it or hate it, they do so incredibly well with the structure. I do think it would be worthwhile to add a bit more standard equipment while raising the base price slightly. There are things I'd change, but by and large they are just a powerhouse.

I like my M4 (very nice looking exterior) but given you need to spend more money (10k, maybe more) after you buy it to make it how you ideally would (the way the 911 comes from the factory) makes that cost damn close to the cost of a new or slightly used 911. Again, plenty of people buying m3/4s for around 100k which is ABSURD for that car. In order to equip an m4 like my 911 it is over 100k (which would be adding Individual exterior and interior and sport exhaust) and doesn't include nearly as much leather (seat backs) or suede headliner. So is a 911 worth 20-30k more to me? Definitely.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Stage IV

6MT M2 curb weight is 141 lbs lighter than 6MT M4 per C&D. Negligible but lighter nonetheless.

IIRC, the M2 weighed by C&D was a EU spec pre-production unit.

[stylinexpat]

Originally Posted by blschaefer1

We actually agree an many things related to 991's. Several checks in the plus column versus M3/M4 - steering feel, overall handling, grip, sound (particularly with PSE). But I think you are missing one important point - they SHOULD be better in some some areas to justify the 60-70% price premium! This is not a trivial price delta. You could buy an M2 for the difference!

The 911 is a cash cow for Porsche and I just think they are becoming radically overpriced. Options are absurdly expensive, the interiors/infortainment are dated, and fit/finish while good is not class leading. Have you sat in an AMG-GT? I have - they feel like a $130k car, the 991 no longer does.

Question - what suspension does your 991 have? Mine had Sport PASM, and on the softest setting is was still very harsh - and riding 20mm lower than stock caused many chin scrapes (I had Sport Design facia which did not help). My 981 Cayman S had standard suspension and rode softer.

We completely disagree on rattles/road noise. There is even verbiage in the 911 owners manual warning about creaks and rattles being 'normal' or something to that effect. I have several friends and neighbors that also have P-cars (including a 991 GT3) and this a running joke amongst us. The stock P Zeros they put on the 991's suffer bad tire roar and no lining in the rear fender wells mean you hear every pebble hitting the rear exhaust. No excuse on that - certainly an effort to save five pounds.

Anyway - to each his own, I've been down the 911 road and if I were to drop $130k on another car it would be a different brand.

Second hand for about $80K is about right

[No Boost]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

IIRC, the M2 weighed by C&D was a EU spec pre-production unit.

That 3415 figure does seem abnormally light for any modern day BMW.