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      Today, 04:53 AM   #23717
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Yep. So some Friday night ramblings (somewhat alcohol fueled and therefore excessively honest)

1. The hard right movement has pulled such an incredible con on American disadvantaged folks. I am literally blown away at the degree to which many people have voted against their economic interests. I blame both the Democrats (for their loss of clear moral purpose) and the Media for this.

Case in point; like others here that have enough to spend on recreational automobiles - I have been fortunate economically. And when I say I have been fortunate economically - I mean that as written. I have been fortunate economically. I had nothing to do with the womb I dropped out of or the DNA related capabilities I inherited. Nothing. That was a lottery. So though I have worked hard for what I have - I am heavily disposed to give back materially which I do.

Through the Presidential Election I advocated heavily for my taxes to go up so as to pay for free post-secondary education for most kids (even though my own kids would not benefit) and free healthcare for others. I argued hard for this every step of the way. Why? Because while I don't believe in equality of OUTCOMES in life (that's communism) I do believe in equality of OPPORTUNITY in life - as well as a reasonable degree of fairness in general. Access to good healthcare and education, regardless of one's ability to pay are fundamental pre-requesites of this.

Instead - the folks most needing of help were duped into backing a system which lowers my taxes, eliminates educational access for their kids, reduces their healthcare coverage... etc

The low skill jobs are not coming back. Why? For example; We don't want to pay $2000 for an iPhone. And even if were willing to do so, Samsung would take the rest of the word's market and eventually crush Apple because the US consumer is not the world's sole consumer anymore. Not even close.

The wall... it works both ways - to keep out and also to isolate. Pink Floyd was right about this...



2. Second rant.

Some months ago I read about how the "Nuclear Football" could be visibly tracked during the Presidential inauguration. That a Marine carrying a satchel would follow the outgoing President to the inauguration - and then follow the new President following the inauguration. The Nuclear Football contains the nuclear codes and instructions which allows the Presidential nt to launch any and all nuclear weapons on any and all sites they wanted world-wide. Apparently these commands are expected to be executed within 4 minutes of being issued.

Now - I suspect we will survive Trump so I'm taking this next comment to a bigger level.

When the founding fathers determined that only Congress could declare war - do you think they envisioned this? Is this consistent with that principal?' It meets the legal test because though we could nuke a country and kill every single person in it - it's ok that congress didn't approve that action because it wasn't a war.

We as a country, civilization and as a species have empowered one single person with the power to eradicate life on earth at any time they choose. We are never more than one addled brain away from extinction.

Does that make sense? Does it make sense that the President can wake up one morning and decide to nuke London England without provocation?

It seems preposterous to assume a President would nuke London but again - we are all fallible human/biological systems. What if something went wrong in one person's 4 pounds of organic matter and they decided to do that?

We tend not to think in historical time periods. I do believe we will get through the Trump years. But don't think of 4 years. Think of 400. Or 4000. Eventually - if we choose to give that power to a single individual the button will be pushed. It's just odds. And Fermi's most famous question will be answered.

I believe the decision making authority associated with this unprecedented power needs to be revisited and cannot lie with a single person, no matter who that person is.
I agree with all of that except that I do not believe people were duped. I think they knew very well what they put on stake of what they currently have. It'all about jobs and the economy and I think it's premature to say if those will improve or not. Trump was the only one who gave people hope of getting what they seek the most, good, secure jobs.
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      Today, 05:09 AM   #23718
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Originally Posted by F83 View Post
Yep. So some Friday night ramblings (somewhat alcohol fueled and therefore excessively honest)

1. The hard right movement has pulled such an incredible con on American disadvantaged folks. I am literally blown away at the degree to which many people have voted against their economic interests. I blame both the Democrats (for their loss of clear moral purpose) and the Media for this.

Case in point; like others here that have enough to spend on recreational automobiles - I have been fortunate economically. And when I say I have been fortunate economically - I mean that as written. I have been fortunate economically. I had nothing to do with the womb I dropped out of or the DNA related capabilities I inherited. Nothing. That was a lottery. So though I have worked hard for what I have - I am heavily disposed to give back materially which I do.

Through the Presidential Election I advocated heavily for my taxes to go up so as to pay for free post-secondary education for most kids (even though my own kids would not benefit) and free healthcare for others. I argued hard for this every step of the way. Why? Because while I don't believe in equality of OUTCOMES in life (that's communism) I do believe in equality of OPPORTUNITY in life - as well as a reasonable degree of fairness in general. Access to good healthcare and education, regardless of one's ability to pay are fundamental pre-requesites of this.

Instead - the folks most needing of help were duped into backing a system which lowers my taxes, eliminates educational access for their kids, reduces their healthcare coverage... etc

The low skill jobs are not coming back. Why? Because nobody wants $3000 iPhones, and nobody in the US wants to assemble them for $2 an hour. But for Trump to make sense, one of those statements must be true.

And as for the wall... it works both ways - to keep out and also to isolate. Pink Floyd was right about this...



2. Second rant.

Some months ago I read about how the "Nuclear Football" could be visibly tracked during the Presidential inauguration. That a Marine carrying a satchel would follow the outgoing President to the inauguration - and then follow the new President following the inauguration. The Nuclear Football contains the nuclear codes and instructions which allows the President to launch any and all nuclear weapons on any and all sites they wanted world-wide. Apparently these commands are expected to be executed within 4 minutes of being issued.

Now - I suspect we will survive Trump so I'm taking this next comment to a bigger level.

When the founding fathers determined that only Congress could declare war - do you think they envisioned this? Is this consistent with that principal?' It meets the legal test because though we could nuke a country and kill every single person in it - it's ok that congress didn't approve that action because it wasn't a war.

We as a country, civilization and as a species have empowered one single person with the power to eradicate life on earth at any time they choose. We are never more than one addled brain away from extinction.

Does that make sense? Does it make sense that the President can wake up one morning and decide to nuke London England without provocation?

It seems preposterous to assume a President would nuke London but again - we are all fallible human/biological systems. What if something went wrong in one person's 4 pounds of organic matter and they decided to do that?

We tend not to think in historical time periods. I do believe we will get through the Trump years. But don't think of 4 years. Think of 400. Or 4000. Eventually - if we choose to give that power to a single individual the button will be pushed. It's just odds. And Fermi's most famous question will be answered.

I believe the decision making authority associated with this unprecedented power needs to be revisited and cannot lie with a single person, no matter who that person is.
We clearly are not on unicorns farting rainbows mode here.

I was just looking at the white house homepages. There have been some changes...

I agree with the taxes. Any country benefits from giving the people opportunities and education and healthcare are the ways to give them. Providing those cuts the taxes eventually since you'll have more skilled tax payers and less crime resulting from hopelessness. Putting money in education is giving money to yourself, security and overall quality of life will improve. Places such as Canada do not happen overnight but there are some studies showing they are pretty happy people compared to well, their neighbors for example.

Being born in the places you or I were has given us advantages. We both can provide those now for our kids without the help of tax payers but that will not fix the other issues they'll face such as crime rate or job market. For those we have to provide equal opportunities.

And for the record I love communism. Marx as a genius, as a comedian. When I read his book in the fifth grade I had a vision of a whiney man having a bitch fit and every time anyone argues for his vision, I picture a dozen Marx dressed as cheerleaders jumping up and down. (I'm aware I'm insane but it's a hilarious vision!)
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      Today, 05:15 AM   #23719
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I agree with all of that except that I do not believe people were duped. I think they knew very well what they put on stake of what they currently have. It'all about jobs and the economy and I think it's premature to say if those will improve or not. Trump was the only one who gave people hope of getting what they seek the most, good, secure jobs.
I just don't understand where from will the jobs come from? The people without jobs are uneducated and they are not reached with education system so they can't get qualifications or skills.

I really don't see Trump has a chance
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      Today, 05:22 AM   #23720
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I just don't understand where from will the jobs come from? The people without jobs are uneducated and they are not reached with education system so they can't get qualifications or skills.

I really don't see Trump has a chance
This remains to be seen but this is not about education level. The majority of job types and skill levels are impacted by offshoring and outsourcing as been discussed here before. The question is if Trump will be successful in reversing the trend without hurting other areas so that there is a net plus. I think it's very doable with the right measures but I'm just not sure if the government is capable of getting it right.
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      Today, 05:46 AM   #23721
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This remains to be seen but this is not about education level. The majority of job types and skill levels are impacted by offshoring and outsourcing as been discussed here before. The question is if Trump will be successful in reversing the trend without hurting other areas so that there is a net plus. I think it's very doable with the right measures but I'm just not sure if the government is capable of getting it right.
The jobs will come back if Americans will do them for the same pay others will do. This would mean significant cuts in pay. If you got $10 per hour 20 years ago, now if the job was to return, you'd get $7. That's why the jobs went away and theyve stayed away. If you'd be paid the tenner you used to get, you still would lose since the product would cost way more.

America acts like this wasn't their fault but consumers are the ones who determine what is produced and where. If you're willing to pay the extra cost for made in the us sticker, then there is a chance the tide will turn. Sadly nobody benefits from this either.
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      Today, 06:07 AM   #23722
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The jobs will come back if Americans will do them for the same pay others will do. This would mean significant cuts in pay. If you got $10 per hour 20 years ago, now if the job was to return, you'd get $7. That's why the jobs went away and theyve stayed away. If you'd be paid the tenner you used to get, you still would lose since the product would cost way more.

America acts like this wasn't their fault but consumers are the ones who determine what is produced and where. If you're willing to pay the extra cost for made in the us sticker, then there is a chance the tide will turn. Sadly nobody benefits from this either.
You are talking about a race to the bottom here between nations which could work long term but there is a lag in the system that can cause very serious damage while the cost of living adjusts to salaries cut to 1/4 or less. It's a very hard and risky route to go and I'm not sure it's politically possible.
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      Today, 06:25 AM   #23723
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You are talking about a race to the bottom here between nations which could work long term but there is a lag in the system that can cause very serious damage while the cost of living adjusts to salaries cut to 1/4 or less. It's a very hard and risky route to go and I'm not sure it's politically possible.
Yes, so you agree with me that Trump has no hope in bringing the jobs back then?
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      Today, 07:48 AM   #23724
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Yes, so you agree with me that Trump has no hope in bringing the jobs back then?
The thing is, Trump isn't completely wrong on some things. it is only because the way he words things that makes it sound extremely antagonistic.

Not everyone has benefited from the economic recovery. I don't believe Trump will do that much harm. He makes it sound like he is going to do a lot but quite a lot of people seem to forget the US isn't run by 1 person, it is by Senate and Congress. I will be extremely surprised if half of his BS passes.

Trump is still extremely unpopular, despite what Trump followers want everyone else to believe. Maybe Democrats will realize they need to stop being so stupid.

That's all from me, I won't speak of this any further.
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      Today, 08:56 AM   #23725
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Yes, so you agree with me that Trump has no hope in bringing the jobs back then?
Of course he can't.

Americans need to distribute the benefits of globalization better. As Wes notes, that means higher taxes on the wealthy. As we argued 2 weeks ago it means universal health care. It means better public schools to help middle class kids climb up. Your social mobility ladder is jammed; it needs to be freed up.

They just inaugurated a man who will do the opposite of all of that. He will cut taxes for the wealthy, making more extreme divisions. He will gut the ACA, the only thing they've done in 60 years to try to give health to all (and they have no replacement). He won't improve public schools (his education secretary is a billionaire whose kids went to private schools) - oooh! How anti-elite!

Like, fuck.

And nothing he does will bring jobs back. All he will do with his mercantilism is make consumer goods more expensive, which will make the pains of globalization even worse for the average American.

As for checks and balances, ha. Funny. The GOP will do whatever they want on the domestic agenda and trump,will,let them. In exchange they will turn a blind eye to his existing conflicts of interest with his business empire (which he will use the Oval Office to promote) and his collaboration in foreign policy with one of your two greatest geopolitical foes (uncle vlad)

Unpopular though he is (and he is) i fear the damage from these 4 years will be great.
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      Today, 09:58 AM   #23726
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Of course he can't.

Americans need to distribute the benefits of globalization better. As Wes notes, that means higher taxes on the wealthy. As we argued 2 weeks ago it means universal health care. It means better public schools to help middle class kids climb up. Your social mobility ladder is jammed; it needs to be freed up.

They just inaugurated a man who will do the opposite of all of that. He will cut taxes for the wealthy, making more extreme divisions. He will gut the ACA, the only thing they've done in 60 years to try to give health to all (and they have no replacement). He won't improve public schools (his education secretary is a billionaire whose kids went to private schools) - oooh! How anti-elite!

Like, fuck.

And nothing he does will bring jobs back. All he will do with his mercantilism is make consumer goods more expensive, which will make the pains of globalization even worse for the average American.

As for checks and balances, ha. Funny. The GOP will do whatever they want on the domestic agenda and trump,will,let them. In exchange they will turn a blind eye to his existing conflicts of interest with his business empire (which he will use the Oval Office to promote) and his collaboration in foreign policy with one of your two greatest geopolitical foes (uncle vlad)

Unpopular though he is (and he is) i fear the damage from these 4 years will be great.
Maybe he can finally get as rich as he claims to be then?

I can tell you where to put your savings if you want to make a killing in the next years. All gun control will vanish shortly and people will feel safer with more cops around which will be needed shortly.

But we two have to give him credit for speed. He erased all information about sexual minorities and global warming on his first day on the job, he killed the big reform in medical insurances and uncle Vlad is jumping on joy. That's one helluva day in erasing years of hard work!

The USA has 330 or so million citizens. I can't understand how the rich benefit from the gap created that now will expand faster than ever. My former theory was military, which has been the only way almost anyone can get out of poverty, but there are so much gun food now to spare even they get to be picky.

So why does America need so many poor uneducated people?
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      Today, 01:50 PM   #23727
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Yes, so you agree with me that Trump has no hope in bringing the jobs back then?
No I don't agree that there is no hope in reversing the trend of offshoring and outsourcing jobs. I just don't think a race to the bottom is the best way of doing it.
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      Today, 02:29 PM   #23728
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Oh look - Whitehouse.gov is conveniently letting me know that I can buy Melania Trump jewelry at QVC! How thoughtful. It used to be filled with boring stuff about climate change and human rights blah blah stuff.

https://www.yahoo.com/style/melania-...012942854.html
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      Today, 02:41 PM   #23729
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No I don't agree that there is no hope in reversing the trend of offshoring and outsourcing jobs. I just don't think a race to the bottom is the best way of doing it.
There is a way, and that's through education and creating better jobs. We will not see Levis factories rushing in to be manufactured there again and assembly lines of any sort will vanish too if not for robots taking over completely.

How can Trump turn this tide when all his own products are manufactured elsewhere too? Come on, the man preaches about American jobs and where the fuck are his trinkets being made?


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Oh look - Whitehouse.gov is conveniently letting me know that I can buy Melania Trump jewelry at QVC! How thoughtful. It used to be filled with boring stuff about climate change and human rights blah blah stuff.

https://www.yahoo.com/style/melania-...012942854.html
I lolled when I saw that. Our first lady got chewed once for running a childrens literature campaign while being a writer. Our media saw it as using the publicity to sell her books. That was pretty funny, since she didn't even take his last name when they married.
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      Today, 03:17 PM   #23730
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There is a way, and that's through education and creating better jobs.
This was true 10 years ago but not today. Today outsourcing and offshoring is not limited to low skilled jobs. Today you can find highly educated resources in low cost countries and technology have provided seemless integration of work force around the globe. I.e it doesn't matter where the employee is. And this is an extreme risk to the local work force in high cost countries and it needs to be addressed one way or the other. Education and better jobs does nothing to resolve this problem.
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This was true 10 years ago but not today. Today outsourcing and offshoring is not limited to low skilled jobs. Today you can find highly educated resources in low cost countries and technology have provided seemless integration of work force around the globe. I.e it doesn't matter where the employee is. And this is an extreme risk to the local work force in high cost countries and it needs to be addressed one way or the other. Education and better jobs does nothing to resolve this problem.
I am aware of this, but see they got those jobs via education. They trained their people to take over, and what did we do? We kept collecting the income via stocks. And who exactly has the cash to invest in stocks?

.
.
.

Yes, the rich.

And who keeps demanding more profits from companies? The workers? The management? Yup, you got it, the share holders.

And where does the money land? To the pockets of those who had enough already before this all started.

Then we can argue over the new rich such as bill gates but he invented Sampo. In Finnish the Finnish folklore Sampo was a machine that produced gold, food, and salt, it basically means it was inventing the wheel again, which is what Bill did. He did it through education and he has kept a lot of the jobs in his home state. That my dear is responsible ownership and even though I hate his products, I admire his work and his contributions greatly.
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      Today, 03:42 PM   #23732
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I am aware of this, but see they got those jobs via education. They trained their people to take over, and what did we do? We kept collecting the income via stocks. And who exactly has the cash to invest in stocks?

.
.
.

Yes, the rich.

And who keeps demanding more profits from companies? The workers? The management? Yup, you got it, the share holders.

And where does the money land? To the pockets of those who had enough already before this all started.

Then we can argue over the new rich such as bill gates but he invented Sampo. In Finnish the Finnish folklore Sampo was a machine that produced gold, food, and salt, it basically means it was inventing the wheel again, which is what Bill did. He did it through education and he has kept a lot of the jobs in his home state. That my dear is responsible ownership and even though I hate his products, I admire his work and his contributions greatly.
Most companies will do what serves the owners best not what serves the employees best. And the few that want to excercise social responsibility over profits will fail as a company when competitors who seek profits first undercut them every time. High cost countries has not been lazy in terms of keeping educated but they have been late in realizing the level of risks from deregulated trade in the world we live in today enabled by technology and a highly educated global work force. Trade need to be adjusted for this new world until cost of living and worker environment ( benefits, safety etc. ) equalizes. Free trade is an usustainable concept when most jobs can be done cheaper from somewhere else and companies are free to pick with no consequences.

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      Today, 03:57 PM   #23733
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Most companies will do what serves the owners best not what serves the employees best. And the few that want to excercise social responsibility over profits will fail as a company when competitors who seek profits first undercut them every time. High cost countries has not been lazy in terms of keeping educated but they have been late in realizing the level of risks from deregulated trade in the world we live in today enabled by technology and a highly educated global work force. Trade need to be adjusted for this new world until cost of living and worker environment ( benefits, safety etc. ) equalizes. Free trade is an usustainable concept when most jobs can be done cheaper somewhere else and companies are free to pick with no consequences.
Cool. So you agree with my every point.

Fair trade actually works btw, since it relies on educated buyers who don't want their morning coffee produced by child labor. I only buy fair trade products in coffee, fruits, vegetable, in tech i trace components and in clothes I demand them to be stitched up by an adult. I basically buy 40% less just to keep affording it.
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      Today, 04:10 PM   #23734
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Cool. So you agree with my every point.

Fair trade actually works btw, since it relies on educated buyers who don't want their morning coffee produced by child labor. I only buy fair trade products in coffee, fruits, vegetable, in tech i trace components and in clothes I demand them to be stitched up by an adult. I basically buy 40% less just to keep affording it.
Fair trade absolutely. I might include more than you in that concept but as for fair trade over free trade we are in agreement.
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Fair trade absolutely. I might include more than you in that concept but as for fair trade over free trade we are in agreement.
So we again agree. Fair trade works (which means paying more for products), free trade doesn't work since to stop it one needs to pay more, or to accept a fast decline in common wealth. Until all the world has food, someone will snatch your job by doing it cheaper.

The jobs aint coming back. So going for Sampo is the only way. I mean come the fuck on, want to see my kids closet? I hate the intellectual rights bs you have there but Bill might have saved the nation with that one for the long haul.
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      Today, 04:24 PM   #23736
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Originally Posted by Lups View Post
free trade doesn't work since to stop it one needs to pay more, or to accept a fast decline in common wealth.
Sorry Lups but this makes no sense to me. Very contradictive. So I think our agreement ends at that we both believe in fair trade over free trade.
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      Today, 04:37 PM   #23737
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Sorry Lups but this makes no sense to me. Very contradictive. So I think our agreement ends at that we both believe in fair trade over free trade.
No, you want the jobs back to the USA. Fine, pay more and stop buying german cars. You want things manufactured in the USA? Well prepare for the price tag. It's then fair trade, since you feel like paying more to buy the products that you could get cheaper by not caring about the chain of production.

It's the bananas in my supermarket. They cost about 2.5 euros per kilo instead of 1.6. They are still grown somewhere else than in finland, and I doubt any of my kids own a piece of clothing manufactured in finland or in the USA but because at least they are made by adults, I pay a lot more.

You really don't get this? My country and yours have gotten so fat, we believe it's our right to exploit others to keep our current standard of living. We are not willing to come up with innovations to give us an edge, we just want cheaper things so we won't get screwed by the mortgage company. The third world just have turned the tables on us and they are now climbing towards our incomes expectances.

Wes said it. You, him and I are so fucking lucky. We got it by being born.
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