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      11-24-2016, 07:52 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by CaryTheLabelGuy View Post
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Originally Posted by FC4 View Post
Actually, according to BMW, they are 75% identical.
Ehh. BMW marketing, maybe.

Look, the S55 and N55 are very different engines, particularly when it comes to tuning, which is what is stopping the S55 from going single turbo.
According to BMW, the f80 has 425hp at the crank and does 0-60 in over 4 seconds too..

The point is that some hardware may be shared, but the way it's utilized is not. The engines act differently, spool differently, require different signals from many parts of the engine (maf, ewg, etc), and they have different flow rates. Now that the ecu is being exposed with bm3 it may be something that's doable, but will require a lot of work to get a system that is built to work with hardware a certain way, to work another way.

Like everyone has said, hardware is easy..tuning is not. There are over 50,000 pages of coding in the s55 dme..who knows what gets altered and where.
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      11-24-2016, 09:53 AM   #24
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Cary I'm normally lock and step with you and all things tuning. And you're are correct the N55 and S55 are different motors. But they're far more similar tuning wise being they share the same DME than they are mechanically (which is a good thing as the S55 is far more fortified)

Let's be "real" here, the MAIN reason we haven't seen a single turbo kit here is because there wasn't an accessible DME tuning solution for it. Well that has changed, with PTF's BM3 you can make more than enough changes necessary make a properly tuned single turbo. Finding the proper area to changing the EWG mapping within the DME itself or doing a simpler external piggyback solution for that is no hurdle for the tuner whom literally engineered the whole platform of the BM3 lol. We now have an excellent (and cost effective) solution to DME tuning. One would have to be a moron to go full Motec standalone ($10+K with tons more problems beyond that getting it to work with everything else on our cars) over giving the BM3 a crack at it. Which costs peanuts!! (relatively speaking)

We had/have simple direct bolt on turbo options for this brand new platform and it was CHEAP. To build, so good margins for the vendors, and buy* So accessible to many owners.

Things have changed. These direct stock location bolt on turbos, ALL OF THEM, clearly run out of gas up top. Any moron who's ever tuned various turbo platforms can see that just from the dyno charts. Furthermore making 700++RW Torque as low as 4K rpm (when trying to push stock frame turbos) dropping to ~525RWT by redline is garbage. You have extreme cylinder pressures and forces on the rods down in low rpms (where the chassis can't even use it!) and then the small turbines (which ARE limited by the physical size of the stock housing, sorry nothing you can do about this but junk them) start choking off the required CFM's to *maintain* the torque to redline. <--- a proper sized single would allow you to still make your strong torque down low (maybe dail it down to ~650RWTorque) at ~4.5rpms, keeping the stock-block very happy, while maintain 650rwtorque to 7.5rpms! Do the math, that's *well over* 800RWHP while exterting less stressful forces on the bottom end on these motors than 700whp on stock framed baby snail upgrades. If THAT's not more than worth the reason to invest the time to move past these stock framed turbos then I don't know what is lol..
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      11-24-2016, 09:00 PM   #25
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Really hoping to see this development start happening. Proper sized big turbo spun to 7500 would be killer on this car! For boost for external wastegate you can always use a JB4 or any ol' boost controller with everything in the DME dialed in with BM3. Someone will pull this off out there and probably soon I'm sure. I just have no idea what to do for traction at all.
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      11-24-2016, 09:18 PM   #26
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^^Yessir, and albeit you'll have traction problems with ANY RWD platform pushing the kinda power we're talking about, it'll still HELP traction a bit moving the power curve higher in the rpms. Mind you, if you can just hold 600 RWTorque to 7300rpm then you're making 834 RWHP!! ...this would be easy for a modestly sized quick spooling single turbo and would be NO more abusive on the stock motor/internals than any of these stock-framed upgraded ones... it's a no brainer and will be amazing to see what these S55's can REALLY do with one
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      11-26-2016, 04:37 PM   #27
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People are missing the main point here...an S55 with an externally-gated single turbo and equal-length tubular manifold will sound downright amazing. That's the only thing that can save these cars from the horrible noise they currently make. People spend $5-6K on an exhaust system and not bat an eyelash. Think of this as an exhaust mod with significant ancillary benefits.

Price of admission is worth the noise alone if it's anything remotely close to this...

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      11-27-2016, 09:46 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaryTheLabelGuy View Post
The issue is tuning. There are a lot of hurdles to overcome in the F8x's Bosch DME before you'll be able to go single turbo.

The S55 has two Electronic Wastegates and two MAF sensors. You'd have to figure out a way to force the DME to run in Speed/Density mode full-time so you could eliminate the MAF sensors and once you've figured this out, you still have TWO EWGs to deal with.

The other option (and probably the better one, tuning-wise), would be a standalone DME/ECU, but this is a long-shot for most street cars as you'd have to compromise on most non-essential items to make it work. This is OK for a race car, but a serious deal-breaker for most of us.

There are several other hurdles as well, but I digress.
So then I am assuming taking out one EWG and one MAF and tuning the DME so that it reads one of each is way more difficult that I think?
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      11-27-2016, 12:44 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FC4 View Post
People are missing the main point here...an S55 with an externally-gated single turbo and equal-length tubular manifold will sound downright amazing. That's the only thing that can save these cars from the horrible noise they currently make. People spend $5-6K on an exhaust system and not bat an eyelash. Think of this as an exhaust mod with significant ancillary benefits.

Price of admission is worth the noise alone if it's anything remotely close to this...

Indeed! A "YUUGE" (trump) power increase on the stock motor reliably with a 1000% better exhaust tone bc of the new exhaust manifold as the silver lining
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      11-27-2016, 02:45 PM   #30
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The main point is to make it sound better? Lol
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      11-27-2016, 03:30 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by CaryTheLabelGuy View Post
Ehh. BMW marketing, maybe.

Look, the S55 and N55 are very different engines, particularly when it comes to tuning, which is what is stopping the S55 from going single turbo.
As already stated, the actual hardware differences going from the N to the S55 aren't that great. The block is closed deck, the rotational assembly is beefier, there are two turbos, and an AWIC, but in essence it's very similar to the N55...which is exactly what BMW has said. The days of a completely unique engine to the M cars has come and gone...BMW specifically mentioned this when the F8X was being released.

As far as tuning goes, they are nearly identical, lol. There's a reason that Terry had the JB4 integration along with the in-dash control system up and running in nearly no time once the F8X was release, and it's because the ECU, from a manipulation standpoint, is the same. The tuning (accounting for differences in hardware, etc) is very similar. Heck, it uses the same CAN commands as any other N55 3 series.
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      11-27-2016, 03:44 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by TurboSid View Post
The main point is to make it sound better? Lol
No. I ment a huge power increase over ANY of the "stock-frame'd turbo upgrade offerings available" WHILE having a 1000% improvement in exhaust sound as a silver lining..
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      11-27-2016, 06:23 PM   #33
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A lot of single turbo Supras have two EWG's....why not keep the two MAFs as well?
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      11-30-2016, 05:44 PM   #34
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With stock turbo F8X's doing 10's now at over 130mph trap speeds, and the best times out of upgraded stock framed turbos only doing marginally better (with poor exhaust pulse sounds to boot) it's clear we need someone to design and jig up an aftermarket exhaust manifold asap and be the *first* player to the market to make for the big jump into the 9's at 140mph+...
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      11-30-2016, 07:37 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A418t81 View Post
As already stated, the actual hardware differences going from the N to the S55 aren't that great. The block is closed deck, the rotational assembly is beefier, there are two turbos, and an AWIC, but in essence it's very similar to the N55...which is exactly what BMW has said. The days of a completely unique engine to the M cars has come and gone...BMW specifically mentioned this when the F8X was being released.

As far as tuning goes, they are nearly identical, lol. There's a reason that Terry had the JB4 integration along with the in-dash control system up and running in nearly no time once the F8X was release, and it's because the ECU, from a manipulation standpoint, is the same. The tuning (accounting for differences in hardware, etc) is very similar. Heck, it uses the same CAN commands as any other N55 3 series.
Again, the things you mention (which is hardly a complete/accurate list of differences), I'm my book, make the S55 a significantly different engine than the N55. There are other considerations as well that must be taken into account; you guys need to look at the big picture.

And no, they are not nearly identical tuning-wise. Just because they share a similar DME/ECU (newer N55's) doesn't mean the tuning is the same.

Also, the JB4 is a glorified boost controller, it has no control over the actual tuning beyond MAP, TMAP, Fuel Pressure Sensor and Electronic Wastgates signal manipulation. The N55 and S55 engines share the same general DME architecture and therefore the JB4 can be adapted for use on both platforms with a different harness and firmware - this doesn't signify that they're "nearly identical" tuning-wise.

The N55 and S55 of course share a lot of the same features, nobody is denying that. But when you drill-down and take everything into consideration, it's hard to deny how different they really are.

Last edited by CaryTheLabelGuy; 11-30-2016 at 07:48 PM..
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      11-30-2016, 07:48 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshab356 View Post
So then I am assuming taking out one EWG and one MAF and tuning the DME so that it reads one of each is way more difficult that I think?
The S55's DME code would need to be edited/re-written so that it only needed one MAF sensor and could control one EWG or; delete both EWG (employing an external wastegate) and run one MAF sensor or; delete both and run the DME in Speed/Density mode - the latter being the most ideal.

Some of this code may be able to be adapted from the N55 DME's code. It's hard to say at this point.

Last edited by CaryTheLabelGuy; 11-30-2016 at 07:53 PM..
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      11-30-2016, 07:50 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW M4 PWR View Post
Cary I'm normally lock and step with you and all things tuning. And you're are correct the N55 and S55 are different motors. But they're far more similar tuning wise being they share the same DME than they are mechanically (which is a good thing as the S55 is far more fortified)

Let's be "real" here, the MAIN reason we haven't seen a single turbo kit here is because there wasn't an accessible DME tuning solution for it. Well that has changed, with PTF's BM3 you can make more than enough changes necessary make a properly tuned single turbo. Finding the proper area to changing the EWG mapping within the DME itself or doing a simpler external piggyback solution for that is no hurdle for the tuner whom literally engineered the whole platform of the BM3 lol. We now have an excellent (and cost effective) solution to DME tuning. One would have to be a moron to go full Motec standalone ($10+K with tons more problems beyond that getting it to work with everything else on our cars) over giving the BM3 a crack at it. Which costs peanuts!! (relatively speaking)

We had/have simple direct bolt on turbo options for this brand new platform and it was CHEAP. To build, so good margins for the vendors, and buy* So accessible to many owners.

Things have changed. These direct stock location bolt on turbos, ALL OF THEM, clearly run out of gas up top. Any moron who's ever tuned various turbo platforms can see that just from the dyno charts. Furthermore making 700++RW Torque as low as 4K rpm (when trying to push stock frame turbos) dropping to ~525RWT by redline is garbage. You have extreme cylinder pressures and forces on the rods down in low rpms (where the chassis can't even use it!) and then the small turbines (which ARE limited by the physical size of the stock housing, sorry nothing you can do about this but junk them) start choking off the required CFM's to *maintain* the torque to redline. <--- a proper sized single would allow you to still make your strong torque down low (maybe dail it down to ~650RWTorque) at ~4.5rpms, keeping the stock-block very happy, while maintain 650rwtorque to 7.5rpms! Do the math, that's *well over* 800RWHP while exterting less stressful forces on the bottom end on these motors than 700whp on stock framed baby snail upgrades. If THAT's not more than worth the reason to invest the time to move past these stock framed turbos then I don't know what is lol..
Honest question: What exactly are you disagreeeig with?

If I need to clarify my position on something, I will.
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      11-30-2016, 09:18 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by CaryTheLabelGuy View Post
Honest question: What exactly are you disagreeeig with?

If I need to clarify my position on something, I will.
I have no idea. I think we agree too much so I'm trying to change that so people don't think we're in bed together.
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      11-30-2016, 09:59 PM   #39
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Thinking it's as easy as changing a few numbers is sadly mistaken. Also something no one has mentioned or talked about , transmission flashing. Until someone can flash the transmission they single turbo kit becomes an even larger hurdle and certainly not something anyone would want for racing.
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      12-04-2016, 02:04 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by CaryTheLabelGuy View Post
Again, the things you mention (which is hardly a complete/accurate list of differences), I'm my book, make the S55 a significantly different engine than the N55. There are other considerations as well that must be taken into account; you guys need to look at the big picture.

And no, they are not nearly identical tuning-wise. Just because they share a similar DME/ECU (newer N55's) doesn't mean the tuning is the same.

Also, the JB4 is a glorified boost controller, it has no control over the actual tuning beyond MAP, TMAP, Fuel Pressure Sensor and Electronic Wastgates signal manipulation. The N55 and S55 engines share the same general DME architecture and therefore the JB4 can be adapted for use on both platforms with a different harness and firmware - this doesn't signify that they're "nearly identical" tuning-wise.

The N55 and S55 of course share a lot of the same features, nobody is denying that. But when you drill-down and take everything into consideration, it's hard to deny how different they really are.
First you said they are totally different engines. BMW says they are 75% the same. Then you drop to semantics to argue the differences. I listed some of the high points. Nothing I listed is inaccurate. Want a whole list? Look it up yourself. I don't see why this is a big deal, it just allows more interchangeability between N55 and S55 engines when building some aftermarket parts.

Next you stated that the ECU and tuning were totally different. Again, they aren't. Of COURSE the actual tables in the ECU aren't identical as compared to an N55, nobody ever said it was. It does appear to be the same ECU with a few extra inputs and outputs being used. The sensors and logic are the same. The same wastegate manipulation on the EWG N55s is just duplicated with the S55. Again, this is awesome in my book. It's a much larger cross section of cars that utilize the ECU with likely mostly the same map addresses, etc which will make ECU development more interesting and widespread to those who are looking for monetary gain from doing such a thing.

Finally, I'm intimately familiar with the JB4. I've been playing with turbo 6 cylinder BMWs since my first 335 (I've had 3) in 07. I was the first person with a juicebox other than Terry himself back in the day and helped a lot with it's development. Technically, the JB4 is not doing any kind of boost control at all on the S55 unless the EWG plugs are installed. It's simply biasing the MAP sensor data and relying on the ECU to do all of the work. This is in contrast with the the N54 JB4 in ISO mode for instance, which directly drives the WG solenoids itself, while routing the ECU signal voltages into resistors on the board to keep it happy while being completely out of the loop on actual boost control.
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      12-04-2016, 02:14 PM   #41
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X 2^^ ...Again, with PTF's BM3, the JB4 and PI integration that's all readily available now for the first time for the S55's. We SHOULD be seeing multiple single turbo kits!! Who's going to be the *first* to make a name for themselves!?
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      12-04-2016, 02:44 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A418t81 View Post
First you said they are totally different engines. BMW says they are 75% the same. Then you drop to semantics to argue the differences. I listed some of the high points. Nothing I listed is inaccurate. Want a whole list? Look it up yourself. I don't see why this is a big deal, it just allows more interchangeability between N55 and S55 engines when building some aftermarket parts.

Next you stated that the ECU and tuning were totally different. Again, they aren't. Of COURSE the actual tables in the ECU aren't identical as compared to an N55, nobody ever said it was. It does appear to be the same ECU with a few extra inputs and outputs being used. The sensors and logic are the same. The same wastegate manipulation on the EWG N55s is just duplicated with the S55. Again, this is awesome in my book. It's a much larger cross section of cars that utilize the ECU with likely mostly the same map addresses, etc which will make ECU development more interesting and widespread to those who are looking for monetary gain from doing such a thing.

Finally, I'm intimately familiar with the JB4. I've been playing with turbo 6 cylinder BMWs since my first 335 (I've had 3) in 07. I was the first person with a juicebox other than Terry himself back in the day and helped a lot with it's development. Technically, the JB4 is not doing any kind of boost control at all on the S55 unless the EWG plugs are installed. It's simply biasing the MAP sensor data and relying on the ECU to do all of the work. This is in contrast with the the N54 JB4 in ISO mode for instance, which directly drives the WG solenoids itself, while routing the ECU signal voltages into resistors on the board to keep it happy while being completely out of the loop on actual boost control.
Honestly, trying to debate with you is a waste of my time.

I've said what I needed to say, go back and re-read what I said if you want to totally understand what exactly I'm saying. My message is very clear and consistent.
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      12-05-2016, 10:10 AM   #43
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Look, all of us are recycling the same points and making similar statements about the natural/normal hurdles of tuning a new single turbo setup. Point is, it can definitely be done and the S55 isn't something revolutionary to the point it can't lol Let's focus on getting the "able and willing" owners or vendors on here to take the initiative to get something done on this sooner rather than later I'm saying. We want this option NOW while the car and bodystyle is relevant. Not old and outdated by the time 50 single turbo kits come out for it (a la E46 M3's)...
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      12-31-2016, 09:52 AM   #44
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2017 New Years resolution "should be's" ...that a vendor or someone out there designs and successfully tunes a single turbo setup for the S55 F8X's!

PTF. Can your BM3 be used to overcome the inherent tuning challenges going to a single turbo setup bring? Any insight on your software and more importantly, tuning experience on this, would be highly appreciated.. thanks.
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