Tuning Fxx series possible (BOSCH ECU) - Diesel & Petrol

[jc05e46m3]

Originally Posted by EndBosS

if you go to the shop with your piggyback, your warranty is voided.
if you go to the shop with your ecu tune, it's invisible. IF they test it and they datalog it, they will notice.
Therefor, we offer a free of charge reset when you have a warranty issue.

They would still be able to see past data.

[apexit]

Originally Posted by jc05e46m3

They would still be able to see past data.

I've heard this from both a dealer tech and someone in BMW corporate. If warranty is a question don't think that being flashed to stock or removing a piggy back will give you the same options as someone who hasn't tuned the car.

[Jorgem2009]

Originally Posted by jc05e46m3

I know someone close to the truth on this and the way it was explained to me is that the encyption is on multiple levels but once the ECU is unlocked (and this can be done with the right hardware), it's unlocked permanantly for future editing.

Jason, I got contacted by a reputable and local tuner for a flash tune, they said it can be edited after

[RingMeister01]

I would say at this point a flash/rewrite is no big deal. A dozen or so tuners (many of them bee reputable) are capable of doing this with proof. The only draw back is the ability to flash the tune by hand held rather sending the ECU out.

I'm at the edge of sending mind out

[ASAP]

According to another site... hand held flashers may be an option soon. Whoever does it first for an F series will be drowning in money.

[EndBosS]

Originally Posted by teamwerx

Well maybe...
Can you prove definitively that a dealer or bmw can't tell the ecu hasn't had a flash?
Since you have access to the ecu, can you elaborate on if a piggyback is detectable after removal?
On a side note just for curiousity, did you guys find a security vulnerability or what to gain access?

I have a video @ the dealer where we test the car.
With the Exx-series, they can see it.
With the Fxx-series, he couldn't see it and he was like... wtf?
We don't make the video public but it can be seen in our Belgian shop.

Most of the the piggyback's are detectable, the only one I know of that isn't is the JB4. We haven't tested this much as we don't use piggybacks in our dealer network.

About the access:


I am not sure if everyone will understand what I am explaining here so I'll try

The logic we used is very simple, but yet hard to find...
EVERY ECU these days has a password.
fe:
BOSCH EDC17C46 VAG
BOSCH-EDC17C64 VAG
BOSCH ME17.5.20 VAG
BOSCH MED17.1.1 TC1797 VAG
BOSCH MED17.5.5 TC1766 VAG
SIMOS 8.4 VAG
BOSCH EDC17C54 VAG
BOSCH EDC17CP44 VAG
BOSCH MED17.1.1 TC1796 VAG
BOSCH MED17.5.21 VAG
BOSCH MED17.5.5 TC1767 VAG
SIMOS 8.5 VAG
BOSCH EDC17C41 1.6L/2.0L TC1797
BOSCH EDC17C41 2.0L TC1797
BOSCH EDC17CP02 TC1766
BOSCH EDC17CP09 TC1796
BOSCH EDC17CP45 4.0L TC1797
BOSCH ME17.2 BMS-X TC1797
BOSCH MEV17.46 TC1796
BOSCH MEVD17.2 N55 TC1797
...

once you connect the ECU on developper level, it will ask you for this PW. (2^64 possibilities: 18446744073709551616)
So no way in hell you will find this by testing them all xD it would take decades and we would be driving hovering BMW's by then

because the ecu knows the PW (it has to compare it once you try entering a pw, it's hidden inside) we have to find the location of the PW and read it, that's what we do.
Once we have this pw it's like BMW itself is flashing the ecu. It's like opening the door with their homekey...



about the HH flashers:

The risk you have with hand held flashers is that you can NEVER put it back in the 'full original' state, something we can do with a boot flash and you risk in blocking your vehicle when it goes wrong


Keep in mind that once we put the ECU back to full original the way we do it, THERE IS NO TRACE @ ALL! Tested on 1, 3 and 5 series!





-

[///Mangler]

Originally Posted by EndBosS

I have a video @ the dealer where we test the car.
With the Exx-series, they can see it.
With the Fxx-series, he couldn't see it and he was like... wtf?
We don't make the video public but it can be seen in our Belgian shop.

Most of the the piggyback's are detectable, the only one I know of that isn't is the JB4. We haven't tested this much as we don't use piggybacks in our dealer network.

About the access:


I am not sure if everyone will understand what I am explaining here so I'll try

The logic we used is very simple, but yet hard to find...
EVERY ECU these days has a password.
fe:
BOSCH EDC17C46 VAG
BOSCH-EDC17C64 VAG
BOSCH ME17.5.20 VAG
BOSCH MED17.1.1 TC1797 VAG
BOSCH MED17.5.5 TC1766 VAG
SIMOS 8.4 VAG
BOSCH EDC17C54 VAG
BOSCH EDC17CP44 VAG
BOSCH MED17.1.1 TC1796 VAG
BOSCH MED17.5.21 VAG
BOSCH MED17.5.5 TC1767 VAG
SIMOS 8.5 VAG
BOSCH EDC17C41 1.6L/2.0L TC1797
BOSCH EDC17C41 2.0L TC1797
BOSCH EDC17CP02 TC1766
BOSCH EDC17CP09 TC1796
BOSCH EDC17CP45 4.0L TC1797
BOSCH ME17.2 BMS-X TC1797
BOSCH MEV17.46 TC1796
BOSCH MEVD17.2 N55 TC1797
...

once you connect the ECU on developper level, it will ask you for this PW. (2^64 possibilities: 18446744073709551616)
So no way in hell you will find this by testing them all xD it would take decades and we would be driving hovering BMW's by then

because the ecu knows the PW (it has to compare it once you try entering a pw, it's hidden inside) we have to find the location of the PW and read it, that's what we do.
Once we have this pw it's like BMW itself is flashing the ecu. It's like opening the door with their homekey...



about the HH flashers:

The risk you have with hand held flashers is that you can NEVER put it back in the 'full original' state, something we can do with a boot flash and you risk in blocking your vehicle when it goes wrong


Keep in mind that once we put the ECU back to full original the way we do it, THERE IS NO TRACE @ ALL! Tested on 1, 3 and 5 series!





-

Except for the time stamp hexadecimal that BMW used as a counter. There will be a gap between original counter and 'reload' of original flash when tune is removed.

T

[EndBosS]

we patch this!

[///Mangler]

Originally Posted by EndBosS

we patch this!

I thought the new family got periodic algorithm changes from sat? I believe there are several levels just like layered firewalls in top secret networks to lure you in. Once you get past the first one and you think you are in you are now only making changes to the layer they scan. The actual trail is now on another ghost layer. Don't ask me how I know this.

T

[ASAP]

So how is Cobb able to use a Handheld with no issues? Once the encryption is broken it should all be the same.

[///Mangler]

Originally Posted by ASAP

So how is Cobb able to use a Handheld with no issues? Once the encryption is broken it should all be the same.

That was the old family. The new ones are different.

T

[///Mangler]

The problem is when the dealer compares the 'patched' time stamp with no changes (or minimal changes) to the odometer that has had 15,678 miles since the last scan, it's obvious. Then they go to the other layer(s) they have and get what they are looking for.

T

[RingMeister01]

Sorry if this was answered but how long does this process take once you have the ECU in hand?

Thanks

[teamwerx]

So whose up first?

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by EndBosS

if you go to the shop with your piggyback, your warranty is voided.
if you go to the shop with your ecu tune, it's invisible. IF they test it and they datalog it, they will notice.
Therefor, we offer a free of charge reset when you have a warranty issue.

I get what you are saying here, but isn't this the equivalent to insurance fraud? Warranty fraud in this case...

Sounds like risky business if you get caught... Not to mention the business ethics of this approach...

I much prefer the Dinan and AC Schnitzer approach to tuning. Open and legal, with a separate warranty.

[RingMeister01]

Originally Posted by Boss330

I get what you are saying here, but isn't this the equivalent to insurance fraud? Warranty fraud in this case...

Sounds like risky business if you get caught... Not to mention the business ethics of this approach...

I much prefer the Dinan and AC Schnitzer approach to tuning. Open and legal, with a separate warranty.

Boss, no offense bro but you need to smile once in a while.

[harkes]

Fancy pictures, but has anyone got first hand experience with these guys?

[PeterPure]

Originally Posted by harkes

Fancy pictures, but has anyone got first hand experience with these guys?

My car is done by them. I will pick it up soon.

[Bowser330]

Originally Posted by Boss330

I get what you are saying here, but isn't this the equivalent to insurance fraud? Warranty fraud in this case...

Sounds like risky business if you get caught... Not to mention the business ethics of this approach...

I much prefer the Dinan and AC Schnitzer approach to tuning. Open and legal, with a separate warranty.

Wouldn't it be warranty fraud if you knew 100% the failure/issue was due to the modification and you were purposefully trying to cover it up?

The way I see it 99.9% of tuners on this forum including myself would not know if the failure was due to the modification or not, maybe it was due to an inherent issue with the car and has 0% to do with the modification; the issues with the N54 HPFP for example...or maybe it was partial responsibility, either way, the point is removing mods, ecu tune or otherwise, before taking the car in to examine the issues gives you the best chance at a fair and unbiased assessment of said issue(s)...reducing the fear that the dealership will do a half-ass job on the investigation and just jump to the conclusion that it was your modification and not their quality product.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Bowser330

Wouldn't it be warranty fraud if you knew 100% the failure/issue was due to the modification and you were purposefully trying to cover it up?

The way I see it 99.9% of tuners on this forum including myself would not know if the failure was due to the modification or not, maybe it was due to an inherent issue with the car and has 0% to do with the modification; the issues with the N54 HPFP for example...or maybe it was partial responsibility, either way, the point is removing mods, ecu tune or otherwise, before taking the car in to examine the issues gives you the best chance at a fair and unbiased assessment of said issue(s)...reducing the fear that the dealership will do a half-ass job on the investigation and just jump to the conclusion that it was your modification and not their quality product.

Valid points.

I agree that on many occasions the fault might not be related to, or solely caused by, the tune. However, covering the fact it has been tuned (which I guess would automatically void warranty in some regions) would probably be worse, if discovered, than being open about the car having been tuned... Removing evidence (related to "the crime" or not) implies guilt...

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by RingMeister01

Boss, no offense bro but you need to smile once in a while.

I might come over as a serious dude on the forums, scientific and engineer sort of...

I do smile and make people laugh in real life though... Especially when I do my stand up and toastmaster routine

Who would've thought...

[Bowser330]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Valid points.

I agree that on many occasions the fault might not be related to, or solely caused by, the tune. However, covering the fact it has been tuned (which I guess would automatically void warranty in some regions) would probably be worse, if discovered, than being open about the car having been tuned... Removing evidence (related to "the crime" or not) implies guilt...

I guess different countries different laws but it's not illegal by any means to modify your car in the USA in fact there are laws that do the opposite that protect you from manufacturers voiding warranties without cause. I believe it's called the magnusson-moss act.

But I'd rather just remove the mod because what am I going to do, get into a legal battle with a multibillion dollar corporation?