[Audio Coding] Replacing HK Logic7 DSP with B&O "Expanded" DSP

[packetpilot]

Coding the following:

HU_NBT or HU_NBT2 > HMI 3000 > HIGH_END_AUDIO_MENUE = volle_insz

..will replace HK Logic7 with B&O DSP. I have this in a newly-included packetpilot.xml cheat code (in my repo, which has pulled in several updates from a few authors of late).

This thread is to discuss others' experience in that regard. I'm pulling quotes in from the general cheat-codes thread into this one, in order for comprehensive info:

Originally Posted by packetpilot

AFAICT, the B&O setting is just giving us the Digital Signal Processing mode in (what I believe to be) either a white-label amp, or simply an amp that's manufactured by Hardon (since they now own B&O), with a mode called "Expanded", replacing the "Logic7" mode.
The Expanded mode (again AFAICT) is a DSP enhancement that, unlike Logic7, does not utilize the front center dash driver, which is just crap and IMO only makes sense for movies. There's what I perceive to be a bit of channel phasing under the "Expanded" mode, but there doesn't seem to be anything close to (what my ears perceive to be) the bites out of the EQ that the Logic7 nonsense involves.

FWIW, I typically hate any DSP whatsoever, but the "Expanded" mode seems to widen the sound stage (through what seems to be simple channel phasing) in a way that seems to make sense for an offset listening position, without tainting the responsiveness curve.

Originally Posted by stealth70mde

Okay, the B&O thing. After a long 2 x 3-hour drives I'm pretty sure there's a big difference from the HK Logic 7 setting (DSP).

I've heard stuff from my music that I've never heard before... My music style is all over the place and goes from classical to heavy metal with electronic and pop..., I know...

At home, I have a more than decent audiophile setup and cannot hear what I'm hearing in the M4 since I did the B&O change I did from packetpilot.

At home, I have a mix of Bel Canto, Bryson, EAD and Acoustic Zen setup, all very good stuff.

I solely was listening to FLAC encoded music transferred to the internal hard drive of the M4.

I moved the fader 2 notches towards the rear and many times I surprised myself turning my head thinking there was something going outside the car only to find that it was part of the music. I don't remember doing that with the Logic 7, ever.

Maybe it's a placebo effect and inside my head but I think not.

Pretty awesome from my first 6 hours of listening at various volumes. More than half volume is where things gets interesting.

If anyone is interested, I can post my EQ settings. They don't sound good when parked but sound good on the highway, ASD disabled.

I think the DSP of B&O is much better than LOGIC 7 from HK. Everything is much crisper and tighter. Yes there's kind of a phase effect but the benefits are much more than the negatives.

[Jockey]

Just did this, very nice!

I set my equalizer settings to the my old Logic 7 settings that I got off this forum, seem to work so far. Anyone audiophiles out there optimized the equalizer for B&O?

One quick question, so if this takes out the center speaker, is that one of the reasons the HK sucked so bad?

[Almaretto]

Originally Posted by Jockey

One quick question, so if this takes out the center speaker, is that one of the reasons the HK sucked so bad?

Coding did not take out the center speaker in my experience on three vehicles.

I am going to write a more thorough first impressions analysis either later today or tomorrow.

[stealth70mde]

Originally Posted by Almaretto

Battery registration DIY

???

[Almaretto]

Originally Posted by stealth70mde

???

I have seen a fair share of accidental double posts, but this is my first random redirect to another thread. Disregard.

[stealth70mde]

Originally Posted by Jockey

Just did this, very nice!

Anyone audiophiles out there optimized the equalizer for B&O?

Okay here is my take on the EQ with the B&O.

I set it up to sound good at highway speed and good close-to and more than half volume.

My music ranges from classical to heavy metal, going through pop...

Treble: 0 (or +1 or +2)
Bass: +6 (between 4 to 6)

100 Hz: +3
200 Hz: +2
500 Hz: +2
1 kHz: +1
2 kHz: 0
5 kHz: +2
10 kHz: +3

Like I said in my previous comment, I'm not sure if it's a placebo effect for sure, I didn't like the Logic 7 when it was ON. Everything was mushed up with no definition.

With the B&O "Expanded" setting, all seems much clearer and defined.

I didn't test the two back to back as I set my things to sound good at highway speed. My settings will not sound good with the engine OFF in your garage. You need to take the car out for a drive to evaluate it.

Also my ASD is disabled FYI.

Apart from FM radio, I solely listen to FLAC, CD or Spotify "Extreme" quality. No Bluetooth and no Satellite radio.

Let me know what you think.

I consider this to be a Beta setting. I'm sure I (we) can make it sound better.

[Almaretto]

Originally Posted by stealth70mde

Treble: 0
Bass: +6

Fader: +2 (towards the rear)

100 Hz: +3
200 Hz: +2
500 Hz: +2
1 kHz: +1
2 kHz: 0
5 kHz: +2
10 kHz: +3

Try the following:

Treble: +1-2
Base: +2-3.
100 Hz: +2
200 Hz: + 4-5
500 Hz: +3-4
1 Khz: -1-2
2 KHz: +3-4
5 KHz: +4-5
10 Khz: +1-2

[stealth70mde]

Originally Posted by Almaretto

Try the following:

Treble: +1-2
Base: +2-3.
100 Hz: +2
200 Hz: + 4-5
500 Hz: +3-4
1 Khz: -1-2
2 KHz: +3-4
5 KHz: +4-5
10 Khz: +1-2

Will do tomorrow for office drive. Will let you know.
Seems I have a problem with pushed high frequencies, that's why I keep them somewhat on the low side...

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by Almaretto

Try the following:

Treble: +1-2
Base: +2-3.
100 Hz: +2
200 Hz: + 4-5
500 Hz: +3-4
1 Khz: -1-2
2 KHz: +3-4
5 KHz: +4-5
10 Khz: +1-2

Tried those today on my way to work. It sounded better but still pretty tough for me to tell. I don't have sensitive ears as some of you.

[stealth70mde]

Originally Posted by Almaretto

Try the following:

Treble: +1-2
Base: +2-3.
100 Hz: +2
200 Hz: + 4-5
500 Hz: +3-4
1 Khz: -1-2
2 KHz: +3-4
5 KHz: +4-5
10 Khz: +1-2

Okay, I tried and went back to my original posted settings. I found that there was a little too much midrange to my taste also the 200Hz at 4-5 sounded off with some of the songs I know pretty well.

Thanks for the charts you PM'd me. I will play with that when I have time. Since I listen to so many different styles (on random) I have to come with an EQ that is a compromise.

[Almaretto]

Originally Posted by stealth70mde

Okay, I tried and went back to my original posted settings. I found that there was a little too much midrange to my taste also the 200Hz at 4-5 sounded off with some of the songs I know pretty well.

Thanks for the charts you PM'd me. I will play with that when I have time. Since I listen to so many different styles (on random) I have to come with an EQ that is a compromise.

[lemetier]

The current B&O Acoustic Lens ICEPower Amp (Lear) is separate and different than the Harman Amp (500 or 600watts to power the entire HK system or just the B&O subs at 500watts). It is an overly complicated installation and defeated the purpose of B&O Automotive's intent to reduce audio system weight while increasing quality.

Yes both are now Harman International companies (as are almost all the Labels) but the existing B&O system was developed prior to the acquisition (which was done to simplify B&O installation on volume production vehicles with multiple audio options and return to the original intent).

Most of the BMW Premium Audio options share one thing in common now: DIRAC sourced DSP. However, they do not all use the same versions or type. DIRAC offers Dimensions, Live, Unison, Virtual Center, Quantum and Panorama; all of which can be used individually or combined to offer multiple experiences. HK Logic7 can be either Harman or DIRAC Live depending on the build date.

B&O uses Virtual Center for Studio Mode and Dimensions in Expanded Mode and are designed to use the Acoustic Lens Speakers.

Coding B&O in lieu of HK will make some change, but to my ears it's not for the better in most instances. Our individual tastes in music and sound preference makes all the difference. I personally listen to all types of music except for gospel and twangy country. There is no single eq or sound mode setting that's correct for every type. One thing that is constant for me is when using iPod/iPhone for audio source and the eq settings. They go to 0 and I prefer to adjust the device eq presets instead. For tight bass punch, studio mode is active. For deep but slight lingering bass, expanded mode with the fader tuned a bit forward. One thing the HK system with the B&O coding won't do is the Sweet Spot enhancement. With B&O, the sound experience is the same regardless of which seat you're in.

[aboulfad]

Originally Posted by Almaretto

Coding did not take out the center speaker in my experience on three vehicles.

I am going to write a more thorough first impressions analysis either later today or tomorrow.

Ditto on my F82, center channel is still working in both B&O modes, which is a no no for stereo listening... IMHO, I didn't bother doing any serious listening tests, because in all honesty and simply put, all BMW sound systems (amp and speakers), HK and not, are just simply disappointing... maybe to my ears B&O sounds a bit different or better but nothing that is worth writing about

Note: to do any serious subjective listening tests requires back and forth listening sessions with the various modes (Logic7 vs B&O) where the delay in switching between the various modes for the same input is within few sec (read ABX audio listening tests...) which is not possible in our setup!

[packetpilot]

Originally Posted by aboulfad

Ditto on my F82, center channel is still working in both B&O modes[...]

Well crap, sorry for the misinformation. I really should get a stethoscope, which I've been meaning to for a while (rattle identification, not unrelated to audio stuff!). Apologies again for my incorrect assumption.

Then again, perhaps it's working differently on MY2016+ cars than those that came before...

[G35POPPEDMYCHERRY]

i wish i understood some of this

[packetpilot]

Originally Posted by G35POPPEDMYCHERRY

i wish i understood some of this

can't really vouch for the quality of the video's contents, but at least it's recent, and the speech is intelligible...

As always, Google is your friend.

[Almaretto]

Originally Posted by packetpilot

Well crap, sorry for the misinformation. I really should get a stethoscope, which I've been meaning to for a while (rattle identification, not unrelated to audio stuff!). Apologies again for my incorrect assumption.

Then again, perhaps it's working differently on MY2016+ cars than those that came before...

I have a half dozen if you need one (All Cardio-thoracic grade).

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by packetpilot

Well crap, sorry for the misinformation. I really should get a stethoscope, which I've been meaning to for a while (rattle identification, not unrelated to audio stuff!). Apologies again for my incorrect assumption.

Then again, perhaps it's working differently on MY2016+ cars than those that came before...

I'm going off memory from various meetings with B&O and Harman reps so I might be a little off...

IIRC with the BMW system, the Central Acoustic Lens Speaker is only a tweeter and serves to provide the Sweet Spot (yes that's actually what they call it) capability and is always active. With HK, there is a tweeter and a mid range in the dash.

The DIRAC DSP on HK branded option started with Jan production I think but cannot find a reference to any change to which speakers are active in either mode compared to Logic7.

I can make B&O sound like utter crap if I really try but it's not easy. HK isn't as difficult and in some cases, hard to make much better than ok. The old Enhanced Premium Sound/M Audio/BMW Individual Audio was far superior to HK.

I just can't see how applying B&O coding serves any purpose given the design of each system.

[packetpilot]

Originally Posted by lemetier

I just can't see how applying B&O coding serves any purpose given the design of each system.

There's certainly a phasing difference when it comes to the B&O "Expanded" DSP and the Logic7 DSP; that's unmistakable.

Bear in mind though that we're *not* changing any amp coding values (separate "AMP" ECU), but simply the presence of a new option called B&O Expanded. What that option actually maps to, on the HK 'brandedhifi' amp, is up for debate. Keep in that, within the HU_NBT2 ECU, there are still other fields where the HK Logic7 system is referenced (and parameters unchanged), so there's a high likelihood that what we're dealing with isn't truly B&O's DSP, but just something that's representing itself as such on the iDrive display next to the checkbox. So, this could be some entirely non-B&O, non-HK 'mutant' DSP that bears no resemblance (functionally, aurally) to the actual B&O functionality.

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by packetpilot

There's certainly a phasing difference when it comes to the B&O "Expanded" DSP and the Logic7 DSP; that's unmistakable.

Bear in mind though that we're *not* changing any amp coding values (separate "AMP" ECU), but simply the presence of a new option called B&O Expanded. What that option actually maps to, on the HK 'brandedhifi' amp, is up for debate. Keep in that, within the HU_NBT2 ECU, there are still other fields where the HK Logic7 system is referenced (and parameters unchanged), so there's a high likelihood that what we're dealing with isn't truly B&O's DSP, but just something that's representing itself as such on the iDrive display next to the checkbox. So, this could be some entirely non-B&O, non-HK 'mutant' DSP that bears no resemblance (functionally, aurally) to the actual B&O functionality.

I'd definitely expect a phasing difference. Just looking at the diagrams between a F3x LCI and F06 LCI, the signaling for DSP is different (speed dependent only with HK, Integrated active microphones on B&O). HU sends the signal back to AMPT which then adjusts accordingly. Both are 16 Speaker systems but HK amp is 9 channel and B&O 16 channel which would have a significant impact.

[Almaretto]

Originally Posted by packetpilot

There's certainly a phasing difference when it comes to the B&O "Expanded" DSP and the Logic7 DSP; that's unmistakable.

Bear in mind though that we're *not* changing any amp coding values (separate "AMP" ECU), but simply the presence of a new option called B&O Expanded. What that option actually maps to, on the HK 'brandedhifi' amp, is up for debate. Keep in that, within the HU_NBT2 ECU, there are still other fields where the HK Logic7 system is referenced (and parameters unchanged), so there's a high likelihood that what we're dealing with isn't truly B&O's DSP, but just something that's representing itself as such on the iDrive display next to the checkbox. So, this could be some entirely non-B&O, non-HK 'mutant' DSP that bears no resemblance (functionally, aurally) to the actual B&O functionality.

I have not had time to put together a more in depth review, but the following are some preliminary notes.

My vehicle are both different chassis as well as factory build at the end of last year before the January change.

2016 (11/15 Prod) F10 528i with Hifi (676)

• I forgot how bad the system was as I never considered the base system as an option. It was actually painful to listen to anything, no matter the source. Everything was so dull and limited treble / bass adjustments practically did nothing good. That system is barely 2.1 almost mono.
• With B&O high_end_audio_menu adjustment (volle_insz), it was not great but a relative and definite improvement over factory settings. In fact I would be more inclined to recommend someone try this with a Hifi system over HK. Flac audio had a definite improvement; there was more of a 3.1 stereo sound with center. For HD radio and satellite, there was a marginal improvement at lower volume. Anything higher than second "n" in "Entertainment," the system had lots and increased amount of unfortunate popping and distortion; it was almost like the new setting highlighted the negative elements of the base system. It was kind of slow to switch between standard and expanded. There was not a real advantage or big difference between the two.
• For fun, I switched AUDIO_SYSTEM to HK. There was a random speaker pulse during the power cycle, but no distortion afterwards. There was a negligible difference in sound quality.

2016 F10 with HK

• System sounded worse than HK with flat EQ after B&O changes were applied.
• On first listen, there was clearly a difference in sound processing between HK and B&O volle_insz. Though, I would not say it was better or worse than factory. The biggest gains in HK or B&O are definitely in the EQ, leaving treble and bass relatively flat with a slight rear fade. There is also no question there is a difference between "Studio" and "Expanded;" on this system the toggle response was quicker. And, marginal change between standard and expanded while stationary. I left car thinking I needed more time both stationary and moving along with different genres to observe whether the change was positive.
• On listening a bit more, I quickly found myself staying away from "Expanded." It sounds better than "Surround" in logic7, but found it to be an equally fake "Hall" sound with less of a track separation between speakers; I thought the "Studio" designation made sense, but might relabel expanded to "Live" as different tracks bled or blended together as if recorded from the same mic.
• Further listening a day later left me no more impressed. I will likely switch back to HK, but I am going to continue to explore.

I also tested in a F15 with HK, but impressions were rather similar.

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by Almaretto

I have not had time to put together a more in depth review, but the following are some preliminary notes.

My vehicle are both different chassis as well as factory build at the end of last year before the January change.

2016 (11/15 Prod) F10 528i with Hifi (676)

• I forgot how bad the system was as I never considered the base system as an option. It was actually painful to listen to anything, no matter the source. Everything was so dull and limited treble / bass adjustments practically did nothing good. That system is barely 2.1 almost mono.
• With B&O high_end_audio_menu adjustment (volle_insz), it was not great but a relative and definite improvement over factory settings. In fact I would be more inclined to recommend someone try this with a Hifi system over HK. Flac audio had a definite improvement; there was more of a 3.1 stereo sound with center. For HD radio and satellite, there was a marginal improvement at lower volume. Anything higher than second "n" in "Entertainment," the system had lots and increased amount of unfortunate popping and distortion; it was almost like the new setting highlighted the negative elements of the base system. It was kind of slow to switch between standard and expanded. There was not a real advantage or big difference between the two.
• For fun, I switched AUDIO_SYSTEM to HK. There was a random speaker pulse during the power cycle, but no distortion afterwards. There was a negligible difference in sound quality.

2016 F10 with HK

• System sounded worse than HK with flat EQ after B&O changes were applied.
• On first listen, there was clearly a difference in sound processing between HK and B&O volle_insz. Though, I would not say it was better or worse than factory. The biggest gains in HK or B&O are definitely in the EQ, leaving treble and bass relatively flat with a slight rear fade. There is also no question there is a difference between "Studio" and "Expanded;" on this system the toggle response was quicker. And, marginal change between standard and expanded while stationary. I left car thinking I needed more time both stationary and moving along with different genres to observe whether the change was positive.
• On listening a bit more, I quickly found myself staying away from "Expanded." It sounds better than "Surround" in logic7, but found it to be an equally fake "Hall" sound with less of a track separation between speakers; I thought the "Studio" designation made sense, but might relabel expanded to "Live" as different tracks bled or blended together as if recorded from the same mic.
• Further listening a day later left me no more impressed. I will likely switch back to HK, but I am going to continue to explore.

I also tested in a F15 with HK, but impressions were rather similar.

I dug a little deeper and went back through some old notes.

HU_NBT and newer have an additional integrated DSP processor for HD Radio, WLAN Streaming Audio (BMW Connected Radio and BT), and compressed digital formats.

For all Fxx 5/6/7 X5/6 with Enhanced Premium Audio (BMW Individual Audio) or HK, DIRAC Live DSP is used. The DIRAC Dimensions for B&O Expanded Mode is designed to give the sense of the sound coming from outside the car (like an open air concert) rather than a surround effect.

Fxx 3/4 have no reference to DIRAC DSP anywhere. The only change is for the Top HiFi Amp on 11.15.15 (the same day Harman and DIRAC announced their new partnership). New production cars would begin seeing these from Jan 2016 and on. Even odder, is its combined with a change to the amp bracket to accommodate Bowers & Wilkins Premium Audio Option in addition to Professional HiFi and HK. The ASD module also changed.

I have a hunch if it isn't in the most recent update, one will soon follow for a 3D Sound Setting that will work with the existing layout better than the B&O menu with 7 fewer channels available.

There was a DIRAC Space Analysis program that's used to fine tune the EQ settings. If I can find it again, will make it available.