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      10-25-2017, 12:48 PM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestion View Post
During the roundabout turn at the beginning, it is easy to see how much more it rolls when compared to the Merc AMG GT. I am of the opinion that the servo valve tech used in our cars (and presumably the M3 CS) is severely limited when compared to the magnetic dampers most other performance cars use. The center of gravity in our car is also a bit high (around 20in per my estimate). Although the M3 is still the best "sport" sedan by a long shot, a quick drive in a properly sporty car (c7, 1LE SS, 981, 991 etc.) quickly reveals the relatively pedestrian nature of our car.

In other words, if you're hoping for no compromise sports car like thrill from the CS, you will be disappointed. It will still be a wobbly sport sedan at the end of the day. If you don't believe me, just test drive any of the cars I mentioned and you will be a believer.
I get what you mean and you're not wrong but two things: the AMG GT doesn't use magnetic dampers either and I've driven numerous C7s including my coworker's C7 Z06 and I find them to be much, much more wobbly than the F80. The dampers themselves feel great on the Corvette but the overall body control just feels weird, like the frame of the car is flimsy or maybe they're using overly soft bushings or something. It gets better in the sportier driving modes but still never feels like one solid car like a proper M car does (and the Porsches you mentioned are the absolute benchmark in my opinion).

We used to own an AMG GT-S at the shop so I've driven that plenty, that is truly an excellent handling car and one of the most fun cars I have ever driven but of course an M3 that is based on a family sedan is going to struggle if compared to a thoroughbred sports car.
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      10-25-2017, 01:19 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Based on what SickFinga said in Post #88, I am not so sure.

This car is not a separate model like the CS and GTS, but an iteration of the standard F80. That may seem like a minor technicality, and in a general context it is, but I would suggest that it may be important in cases such as the one you bring up.

I remain somewhat skeptical that this car will actually be called "M3 CS". But even if it is, clearly it isn't going to have full feature parity with the M4 CS. Although, it will have the engine tune and share suspension tweaks with the M4 CS too (whatever those are), so that's what matters most I'd think. Pricing remains a big question. Already, the value equation for the M4 CS has been called into question by many, and rightly so. Will this car suffer in the same way? We shall see.
Well, I hope you're right, because if it's not full feature parity with the M4 CS, then there's hope for the 6MT and real door panels.

As for the price, given the OEM CF hood is hell expensive, plus all the other bits, it might still be worth it. But I'd be adding up the cost of a ZCP and buying a hood/lip/spoiler as opposed to just paying more for this model - especially if it comes with everything I want.
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      10-25-2017, 01:46 PM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestion View Post
During the roundabout turn at the beginning, it is easy to see how much more it rolls when compared to the Merc AMG GT. I am of the opinion that the servo valve tech used in our cars (and presumably the M3 CS) is severely limited when compared to the magnetic dampers most other performance cars use. The center of gravity in our car is also a bit high (around 20in per my estimate). Although the M3 is still the best "sport" sedan by a long shot, a quick drive in a properly sporty car (c7, 1LE SS, 981, 991 etc.) quickly reveals the relatively pedestrian nature of our car.

In other words, if you're hoping for no compromise sports car like thrill from the CS, you will be disappointed. It will still be a wobbly sport sedan at the end of the day. If you don't believe me, just test drive any of the cars I mentioned and you will be a believer.
Dampers do not impact how much a car ultimately rolls when cornering but rather impact how fast it rolls.

I agree with your point though. An M3/4 will never be a “pure” sports car, it never was intended to be. For me, the M3/4 are all about balancing daily practicality, reasonable luxury and track ability. Not many cars offer an as well rounded package in that respect in the market. It is one of the main reasons I never really got what the M4 GTS is about.
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      10-25-2017, 02:08 PM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falafel Combo View Post
Coming heavily discounted to a dealership near you soon.

#neverforgetM4GTS

These types of cars generate a lot of fodder and hype, but very few ever buy them. Lots of tire kickers at this price premium for an M3, ultimately resorting to classic excuses such as NO MT, or NO OLED or EXHAUST NOTE SUCKS!

Lets see who ponies $100-120k up for an M3.

$120 for an M3 at the end of it's life cycle that will surely get killed by next generation's base model. Nope.
Sounds cool to throw numbers around, and BMW seems to be throwing every variation available at the masses. I think we've hit the tip of the spear with a ZCP with Mperf coils and an aftermarket exhaust. The rest is just cannon fodder for all the fanboys.
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      10-25-2017, 02:23 PM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blksnowflake View Post

$120 for an M3 at the end of it's life cycle that will surely get killed by next generation's base model. Nope.
Sounds cool to throw numbers around, and BMW seems to be throwing every variation available at the masses. I think we've hit the tip of the spear with a ZCP with Mperf coils and an aftermarket exhaust. The rest is just cannon fodder for all the fanboys.
No shot an M3 CS is anywhere close to $120k. I would say, at most, $90k.
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      10-25-2017, 02:46 PM   #182
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9 pages later.... the Comp 6sp is still the smarter bet. Still don't see the point of the CS
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      10-25-2017, 02:47 PM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thescout13 View Post
No shot an M3 CS is anywhere close to $120k. I would say, at most, $90k.
I am willing to bet it will be north of $115K CAN, which should put it close to $100K USD.
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      10-25-2017, 02:55 PM   #184
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Now they just need to release the M2CS
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      10-25-2017, 03:09 PM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thescout13 View Post
No shot an M3 CS is anywhere close to $120k. I would say, at most, $90k.
Don't think so ... a full loaded F80 ZCP is close to that number already.
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      10-25-2017, 03:13 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Figurka View Post
Don't think so ... a full loaded F80 ZCP is close to that number already.
With CCB though, right? CCB are optional on the M4 CS and will likewise be optional on this M3 CS too.

Whether that means a $90k starting price for the M3 CS is possible remains to be seen. But, the M4 CS is probably going to be about $100k in the US, and something has to give with the omission of OLED tail lights (which are a ~$9000 part, give or take).
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      10-25-2017, 03:22 PM   #187
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Not sure if this was posted in this tread yet but the M4 CS failed to beat a M4 CP recently on same set of tires.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/b...me-121168.html

If that's the case the M3 CS will be lacking the one thing that set the M4 CS apart which is the rear OLED lights.

This M3 CS better be at the most 3-5k difference on top of the CP simply for the carbon pieces and wheels/tires.
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      10-25-2017, 03:23 PM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Figurka View Post
Don't think so ... a full loaded F80 ZCP is close to that number already.
Fully loaded? You mean with the $10k brake option and the waste of money $4k exec package. Sure. But even then you are only in the $80k range and this is a CS not a car that needs Exec package etc (nor would I get one with it). So $90k is not so far-fetched at all. Remember no OLED taillights which are themselves $9k roughly.
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      10-25-2017, 03:34 PM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thescout13 View Post
Fully loaded? You mean with the $10k brake option and the waste of money $4k exec package. Sure. But even then you are only in the $80k range and this is a CS not a car that needs Exec package etc (nor would I get one with it). So $90k is not so far-fetched at all. Remember no OLED taillights which are themselves $9k roughly.
9K if you buy them true the dealer, not if they coming with the car
With CCB it's gonna be over 100.000$

I would never buy an M3/M4 without exec package and glad mine has this option.
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      10-25-2017, 03:51 PM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ali820 View Post
9 pages later.... the Comp 6sp is still the smarter bet. Still don't see the point of the CS
I'm hoping for an M3 CR - "California Roll". Rice on the outside, and all the good bits in the middle.

I like the CF lip, hood and CF spoiler being on their as "factory" rather than add-ons later. And the lighter-weight wheels.

But not if the sum of the parts is less than the sticker price...
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      10-25-2017, 04:02 PM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Figurka View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thescout13 View Post
Fully loaded? You mean with the $10k brake option and the waste of money $4k exec package. Sure. But even then you are only in the $80k range and this is a CS not a car that needs Exec package etc (nor would I get one with it). So $90k is not so far-fetched at all. Remember no OLED taillights which are themselves $9k roughly.
9K if you buy them true the dealer, not if they coming with the car
With CCB it's gonna be over 100.000$

I would never buy an M3/M4 without exec package and glad mine has this option.
To each there own as they say
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      10-25-2017, 04:10 PM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exo-shell View Post
Today's your lucky day because they already have that! It's called the M3.
I already have a F80 M3..

You missed my point of BMW keeping the excessive options... options..

The Carbons and the OLEDs....

OLEDs don't provide any improvement in performance... An the CC are debatable.

Charge 75 for a base CS, then add in options. Then if a fully load m4/m3 CS is 100K so be it.

Question is how expensive this will be vs the GTS as the CS is supposed to be a semi normal production.

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      10-25-2017, 04:21 PM   #193
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The content that is unique to the M4 CS is standard equipment. That means that the OLED tail lights will be standard. Similarly, the unique interior is standard. Obviously the hood, spoiler, splitter, and lightweight wheels are all standard too.

You have to have to be aware that, with the M4 CS, BMW is not trying to build a car that offers the best performance bang for the buck. So, its not about offering performance upgrades at a good value. They are trying to up-sell customers by throwing in exclusive content - content that is mostly eye candy or at the very least is of dubious importance from a performance standpoint.

The "M3 CS" should be positioned similarly, except that it won't have the OLEDs. We don't even know what the interior will be either, as far as I know. So it should come in at a cheaper price than the M4 CS. But that doesn't mean it will be a good value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocWeatherington View Post
I already have a F80 M3..

You missed my point of BMW keeping the excessive options... options..

The Carbons and the OLEDs....

OLEDs don't provide any improvement in performance... An the CC are debatable.

Charge 75 for a base CS, then add in options. Then if a fully load m4/m3 CS is 100K so be it.

Question is how expensive this will be vs the GTS as the CS is supposed to be a semi normal production.

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      10-25-2017, 04:39 PM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Based on what SickFinga said in Post #88, I am not so sure.

This car is not a separate model like the CS and GTS, but an iteration of the standard F80. That may seem like a minor technicality, and in a general context it is, but I would suggest that it may be important in cases such as the one you bring up.
That doesn't really mean anything. Let me remind you, E92 M3 GTS was also built on top of the regular M3 while M3 CRT got it's own model code. There were also other cases, like E36 M3 GTR Street and E46 M3 GTR Street. However, I wouldn't really call those production cars since none of them were really sold to the public after completion. Still, E92 M3 GTS example clearly shows that you can expect anything out of this "M3 CS", not just the usual paint + stitching on the leather + M performance parts. The 9MR option code signifies something very special.
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      10-25-2017, 04:47 PM   #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SickFinga View Post
That doesn't really mean anything. Let me remind you...
Very reasonable points you make.

But at the same time, I think it is pretty safe to assume that there is a reason why the M4 CS is being treated as a separate model, while this M3 "CS" is not. The fact that they weren't presented or at least announced at the same time also suggests some sort of separation between the two.

There's got to be more to this story. Hopefully we know the rest soon.
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      10-25-2017, 05:22 PM   #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
But if the next M3 doesn't have an electrified drivetrain, which is quite likely, then the chances become much better for one more generation of the MT. Even if the S58 is 48V like the M256 and has integrated mild hybrid tech such as flywheel starter/generator or some form of electric turbo charging, the MT should still be easy to integrate.
As of right now, a MT for the next generation of M cars is not likely except for the M2. If you really want an MT BMW which is not an M2, you better start buying them now.

It might change that but as of right now, a MT is not being considered for the next generation of M3/M4 despite all the logical reasons that we might consider.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Based on what SickFinga said in Post #88, I am not so sure.

This car is not a separate model like the CS and GTS, but an iteration of the standard F80. That may seem like a minor technicality, and in a general context it is, but I would suggest that it may be important in cases such as the one you bring up.

I remain somewhat skeptical that this car will actually be called "M3 CS".
I am not sure if I can change your mind but there is another car (little more updated) in a different color that has a trunk badge which says M3 CS. This is the M3 CS.

Edit: As I mentioned earlier, we will know officially what this car will be called "much" sooner than expected.

Last edited by Gatte; 10-25-2017 at 05:30 PM.
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      10-25-2017, 05:31 PM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatte View Post
As of right now, a MT for the next generation of M cars is not likely except for the M2.

...

It might change that but as of right now, a MT is not being considered for the next generation of M3/M4 despite all the logical reasons that we might consider.
I remember the same thing was said prior to the F10 M5, too. It ended up happening anyway, but only for the US. With the F90, its now gone completely. We are definitely in the twilight years of the MT in the M3 and M4, no doubt. We'll see whether there is one more round left or if the current generation is really it for good.

Quote:
I am not sure if I can change your mind but there is another car (little more updated) in a different color that has a trunk badge which says M3 CS. This is the M3 CS.
Like I said in a post above, even if its called that, there's something going on here. I have my doubts that BMW is going to leave themselves in a place where they have to either expose the OLED tail lights as a multi-thousand dollar surcharge for the M4 CS, or try to inflate the M3 CS MSRP to near the M4 CS despite it lacking those as a selling point.
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      10-25-2017, 05:39 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Very reasonable points you make.

But at the same time, I think it is pretty safe to assume that there is a reason why the M4 CS is being treated as a separate model, while this M3 "CS" is not. The fact that they weren't presented or at least announced at the same time also suggests some sort of separation between the two.

There's got to be more to this story. Hopefully we know the rest soon.
Again, see E90 M3 CRT vs E93 M3 GTS. They weren't presented or announced at the same time and have the exact same weird thing with the model codes. And sure they are not exactly the carbon copy of each other, but GTS has even more modifications done to it and it didn't get a unique model code.


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