BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Forum > BMW M3 (F80) and BMW M4 (F82) General Forum

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      11-24-2017, 01:42 PM   #45
GrussGott
Major General
GrussGott's Avatar
United_States
6297
Rep
7,511
Posts

Drives: Mondstein F83
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Newport Beach

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2011 E93 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by (((myzmak))) View Post

manuals are cool and chicks love 'em.
Because they think, "Now there's a guy who's used to taking care of himself."
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.

Last edited by GrussGott; 11-24-2017 at 02:08 PM.
      11-24-2017, 02:26 PM   #46
zamboni
I want to drive a Zamboni
zamboni's Avatar
United_States
198
Rep
4,137
Posts

Drives: 13 E93 M3 18 F80
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Monte Sereno, CA

iTrader: (5)

Garage List
myzmak was right on prefer the throttle control of a manual, you're in control instead of the car. How many 4 doors sedan out there still offer a 6MT?
__________________
18 F80 M3 Black Sapphire 6MT
16 K71 F800GT Montego Blue
13 E93 M3 Melbourne Red
2006 E90 ( sold ) 09 E82 Space Gray ( sold ) 14 F30 335i ( sold )
My next vehicle would be a Zamboni
Appreciate 0
      11-24-2017, 05:19 PM   #47
captainaudio
World's Foremost Authority
captainaudio's Avatar
United_States
541
Rep
4,218
Posts

Drives: M4 Cab - Cayenne GTS - Jag XK
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Upper East Side Manhattan - Boca Raton FL - Lime Rock CT

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by zamboni View Post
myzmak was right on prefer the throttle control of a manual, you're in control instead of the car. How many 4 doors sedan out there still offer a 6MT?
I'll have to admit that you guys lost me on the throttle control issue.

What does an MT have to do with throttle control?
__________________

Drivers Club at Lime Rock - International Motorsports Research Center - Society of Automotive Historians - Madison Avenue Sports Car Driving and Chowder Society (0nly a VP) - BMWCCA - Porsche Club of America - Simeone Museum - American Mural Project - Saratoga Automobile Museum - Polish Race Drivers of America (PDRA) - Glen Club (Watkins Glen International)
Appreciate 1
      11-24-2017, 05:30 PM   #48
BMWM5NYC
Lieutenant
BMWM5NYC's Avatar
94
Rep
421
Posts

Drives: 2013 F10 Monte Carlo Blue M5
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: NYC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I'll have to admit that you guys lost me on the throttle control issue.

What does an MT have to do with throttle control?
I think they mean "clutch modulation/control" Lol
__________________
Formally known as BMWM3NYC
Appreciate 1
      11-24-2017, 05:35 PM   #49
captainaudio
World's Foremost Authority
captainaudio's Avatar
United_States
541
Rep
4,218
Posts

Drives: M4 Cab - Cayenne GTS - Jag XK
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Upper East Side Manhattan - Boca Raton FL - Lime Rock CT

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWM5NYC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I'll have to admit that you guys lost me on the throttle control issue.

What does an MT have to do with throttle control?

I think they mean "clutch modulation/control" Lol

It seems that at some point mostl MT vs AT threads evolve into instruction manuals for some somewhat unconvertional driving techniques.
__________________

Drivers Club at Lime Rock - International Motorsports Research Center - Society of Automotive Historians - Madison Avenue Sports Car Driving and Chowder Society (0nly a VP) - BMWCCA - Porsche Club of America - Simeone Museum - American Mural Project - Saratoga Automobile Museum - Polish Race Drivers of America (PDRA) - Glen Club (Watkins Glen International)

Last edited by captainaudio; 11-24-2017 at 06:45 PM.
Appreciate 2
      11-24-2017, 07:16 PM   #50
dinonz
Colonel
United_States
774
Rep
2,259
Posts

Drives: 2016 M3 MWM ZCP
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Austin

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
It seems that at some point mostl MT vs AT threads evolve into instruction manuals for some somewhat unconvertional driving techniques.
It's like the Christians vs Gays. Each side has some strange notion that if they keep making their point, the other side will agree and change. They won't
Appreciate 2
      11-24-2017, 07:47 PM   #51
pheerlx
M n00b
pheerlx's Avatar
United_States
720
Rep
1,622
Posts

Drives: F80
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: San Diego

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinonz View Post
It's like the Christians vs Gays. Each side has some strange notion that if they keep making their point, the other side will agree and change. They won't
We all know which side drives MT
__________________
2018 M3 SSII/Cloth Delete/DCT Delete/Moonroof Delete/Civic Package Delete
Appreciate 0
      11-24-2017, 07:54 PM   #52
captainaudio
World's Foremost Authority
captainaudio's Avatar
United_States
541
Rep
4,218
Posts

Drives: M4 Cab - Cayenne GTS - Jag XK
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Upper East Side Manhattan - Boca Raton FL - Lime Rock CT

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinonz View Post
It's like the Christians vs Gays. Each side has some strange notion that if they keep making their point, the other side will agree and change. They won't
I don't want or expect to change anyone's mind but some of the info posted in these threads is simply erroneous. What these threads sometimes reveal is that not only are there those who don't understand MT driving techniques there are also those who don't appear to understand the operation of a modern AT or DCT.

The ZF 8 Speed and the DCT are as far removed (and probably farther removed) from the two speed GM Powergilde and Ford Fordomatic dual range ATs of 50 years ago as a modern fully syncromesh, hill holding, auto rev matching MT is from the three on the tree with no synchomesh in 1st MTs of the same era.
__________________

Drivers Club at Lime Rock - International Motorsports Research Center - Society of Automotive Historians - Madison Avenue Sports Car Driving and Chowder Society (0nly a VP) - BMWCCA - Porsche Club of America - Simeone Museum - American Mural Project - Saratoga Automobile Museum - Polish Race Drivers of America (PDRA) - Glen Club (Watkins Glen International)
Appreciate 2
      11-24-2017, 09:06 PM   #53
KevinM
Colonel
KevinM's Avatar
766
Rep
2,014
Posts

Drives: 2002 M5; 2007 M Coupe; 2016 M3
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Tucson

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2016 BMW M3  [0.00]
2007 E86 M coupe  [4.50]
2002 E39 M5  [5.00]
So...when the manuals are truly dead and gone on the M3/4, what do you think we'll use to convince other forum members that our choices are better than theirs?

a) AWD vs. RWD (if AWD is offered as an option)
b) 19" vs. 20" wheels
c) Hybrid M cars vs. traditional (assuming both are offered on the same M car)
d) My color is better than your color

If a and c are not available on the same car, it's going to get pretty dull around here...
__________________
Kevin
2016 F80 M3 ZCP MG/Golden Brown/6MT - ED 6/3/16
European Delivery thread: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1291837
2002 E39 M5 Sterling Gray/Caramel
2007 E86 Z4M Coupe Silver Gray/Black
Appreciate 1
      11-24-2017, 10:17 PM   #54
dinonz
Colonel
United_States
774
Rep
2,259
Posts

Drives: 2016 M3 MWM ZCP
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Austin

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I don't want or expect to change anyone's mind but some of the info posted in these threads is simply erroneous. What these threads sometimes reveal is that not only are there those who don't understand MT driving techniques there are also those who don't appear to understand the operation of a modern AT or DCT.

The ZF 8 Speed and the DCT are as far removed (and probably farther removed) from the two speed GM Powergilde and Ford Fordomatic dual range ATs of 50 years ago as a modern fully syncromesh, hill holding, auto rev matching MT is from the three on the tree with no synchomesh in 1st MTs of the same era.
Actually, I would probably prefer a 2 speed powerglide

Here is what I HATE about automatics, especially in high torque cars like the M3 - they have a tendency to change down when they don't need to. Sometimes on a highway you just want to squeeze the throttle and use the torque to gradually gain speed - but many autos once you squeeze slightly too much, they chop down a gear or two, and I hate that. 6MT, I can guarantee it won't change down no matter how much throttle I apply...

And when I test drove the M4 with DCT, it did the same thing. In 7th I applied a little (maybe 10% gas) and it changed down when I felt it didn't need to. I hate that with a passion. First world problems I know.

Yes - I could drive in manual and the DCT wouldn't do that. But if I'm going to drive in manual 100% of the time, I'm going to drive in *real* manual 100% of the time, and get a manual gearbox.

Maybe just maybe the DCT would "learn" my driving over time, but I doubt it. To me, unless I give it 50% or more throttle, don't change down. Just pull away. If only they would, I might consider a DCT. But as they are now, they "behave the same as an auto" in the one area I hate the most about autos...
Appreciate 2
      11-24-2017, 10:50 PM   #55
dinonz
Colonel
United_States
774
Rep
2,259
Posts

Drives: 2016 M3 MWM ZCP
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Austin

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pheerlx View Post
We all know which side drives MT
Sure do
Appreciate 0
      11-24-2017, 11:44 PM   #56
bmrwrld
First Lieutenant
bmrwrld's Avatar
United_States
67
Rep
337
Posts

Drives: M4
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: NEVADA

iTrader: (0)

Yes the DCT is great but there is no feeling in the world like the raw power in your hands and feet. Regardless of the type of car I will always have a stick.
Appreciate 0
      11-25-2017, 01:40 AM   #57
WW435
Major
WW435's Avatar
85
Rep
1,163
Posts

Drives: '15 435 xDrive & '12 M3
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: PA

iTrader: (8)

The 6MT option is one big reason why many enthusiasts prefer a BMW. No matter your preference, it's disappointing to read an enthusiast magazine state that this car is better without the manual when it is the only car in its class that continues to offer one. A forceful argument for the continued availability of a 6MT would help those who want to save the manual IMO.
__________________
Past: 1999 M3 2003 M5 2006 330i 2007 335i 2009 M3
Appreciate 1
      11-25-2017, 02:01 AM   #58
GrussGott
Major General
GrussGott's Avatar
United_States
6297
Rep
7,511
Posts

Drives: Mondstein F83
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Newport Beach

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2011 E93 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinonz View Post
It's like the Christians vs Gays. Each side has some strange notion that if they keep making their point, the other side will agree and change. They won't
Is this your way of telling us something?
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.
Appreciate 0
      11-25-2017, 08:24 AM   #59
CanAutM3
Lieutenant General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
4491
Rep
13,396
Posts

Drives: 2015 M4 DCT
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2015 BMW M4  [4.29]
2006 Audi S4  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by (((myzmak))) View Post
- but I prefer the throttle control of a manual;
- with DCT it is too easy to treat throttle as on/off switch - manual forces you to modulate that better.
That, you'll have to explain to me ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by (((myzmak))) View Post
- ever notice how 99% of the people who have complained about traction issues have been driving DCT?
That is more a question of gearing. 1st gear on the DCT is so crazy short that it is impossible to put the power down. Which means throttle modulation is evem more important with DCT. I've ranted about this more than once. It is the result of cost savings on BMW's part by giving us a "hand-me-down" transmission from the M5/6.
__________________
2015 F82 M4
Silverstone / Silverstone / DCT / EDC
MPE / CF Diffuser / CF Mirror caps / CF spoiler / GC Camber plates / Eibach springs
Appreciate 1
      11-25-2017, 08:29 AM   #60
CanAutM3
Lieutenant General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
4491
Rep
13,396
Posts

Drives: 2015 M4 DCT
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2015 BMW M4  [4.29]
2006 Audi S4  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinonz View Post
Actually, I would probably prefer a 2 speed powerglide

Here is what I HATE about automatics, especially in high torque cars like the M3 - they have a tendency to change down when they don't need to. Sometimes on a highway you just want to squeeze the throttle and use the torque to gradually gain speed - but many autos once you squeeze slightly too much, they chop down a gear or two, and I hate that. 6MT, I can guarantee it won't change down no matter how much throttle I apply...

And when I test drove the M4 with DCT, it did the same thing. In 7th I applied a little (maybe 10% gas) and it changed down when I felt it didn't need to. I hate that with a passion. First world problems I know.

Yes - I could drive in manual and the DCT wouldn't do that. But if I'm going to drive in manual 100% of the time, I'm going to drive in *real* manual 100% of the time, and get a manual gearbox.

Maybe just maybe the DCT would "learn" my driving over time, but I doubt it. To me, unless I give it 50% or more throttle, don't change down. Just pull away. If only they would, I might consider a DCT. But as they are now, they "behave the same as an auto" in the one area I hate the most about autos...
You are just making circular arguments to justify your point.

You enjoy traditional manuals. I fully respect that. It is an emotional choice.

But the argument made in this post does not make sense...
__________________
2015 F82 M4
Silverstone / Silverstone / DCT / EDC
MPE / CF Diffuser / CF Mirror caps / CF spoiler / GC Camber plates / Eibach springs
Appreciate 1
      11-25-2017, 09:55 AM   #61
MFore
Private First Class
United_States
41
Rep
113
Posts

Drives: 2015 M4
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: McLean VA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by (((myzmak))) View Post
FAKE NEWS!

To repeat for the millionth time:

- I have no doubt the DCT is able to work very well with the engine;
- but I prefer the throttle control of a manual;
- ever notice how 99% of the people who have complained about traction issues have been driving DCT?
- with DCT it is too easy to treat throttle as on/off switch - manual forces you to modulate that better.

Plus manuals are cool and chicks love 'em.
Wait, if you have not had traction control issues with a manual you are doing something wrong. Tach it up past 6grand slam it into second and mash the gas. You Will have a traction issue. Wait. Maybe I’m doing something wrong?
Still waiting on validation of the “chicks dig it “ part.
__________________
F82 M4 (ED 5/26/15-PCD 7/24/15) | MG/SO | 6SP | CF | 19" BLK | ADAPT M SUSPENSION | LED | HARMON KARDON
Our ED http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...ighlight=dyers
Appreciate 0
      11-25-2017, 10:30 AM   #62
(((myzmak)))
Advocatus Douchebagus. Sex Marxist.
(((myzmak)))'s Avatar
Canada
3967
Rep
6,754
Posts

Drives: Lucy.
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Canada

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2015 F80 M3  [5.00]
2013 MB E350 Wagon  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Because they think, "Now there's a guy who's used to taking care of himself."
....as opposed to a dude who needs someone else to take care of his needs? yeah, i think chicks would prefer a guy who can take care of his own bidniss (ifyouknowwhati'msayin'...... )

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
That, you'll have to explain to me ???

That is more a question of gearing. 1st gear on the DCT is so crazy short that it is impossible to put the power down. Which means throttle modulation is evem more important with DCT. I've ranted about this more than once. It is the result of cost savings on BMW's part by giving us a "hand-me-down" transmission from the M5/6.
yeah, so my point is not from a point of perfect driving technique or track mastery or anything like that, more just about spirited daily driving.

From my 100% unscientific poll based on random threads that i happened to read on here (so you know this is statistically sound as all fuck), a lot of the 'it breaks traction too easily' complaints tend to come from guys who just mash the pedal down hard when doing their stop light hero racing and expect the car to grip like 'no problem, mon' (the ole' on-off switch)

with a manual, while i appreciate you can do that, as MFore notes here

Quote:
Originally Posted by MFore View Post
Wait, if you have not had traction control issues with a manual you are doing something wrong. Tach it up past 6grand slam it into second and mash the gas. You Will have a traction issue. Wait. Maybe I’m doing something wrong?
Still waiting on validation of the “chicks dig it “ part.
....the fact is, to get the same 'full throttle instantly' requires coordination with the left foot. And, sure, some guy who cares more about how to describe this will inevitably say 'but doesn't he mean clutch control?'

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWM5NYC View Post
I think they mean "clutch modulation/control" Lol
...yeah, like that...

but all i'm saying is that the act of applying throttle from a standing start in a manual just requires more coordination, and thus a little more deliberation rather than 'push right toes to floor'. That act of coordination will, most times, result in a bit more modulation - the few milliseconds most of us take to depress and release clutch in coordination with depressing throttle will result in a slight modulation of putting down the throttle and result in fewer traction issues.

can we just time it and mash it? sure. But to do that in an MT one has to try harder to mash it and break traction - it is easier and requires less effort in a DCT

so, with an MT most of us dont most mash it most of the time.

so, most of the time, MT drivers don't hit the traction issues that DCT drivers can hit in daily driving.

that's it.

not saying MT is better or worse (know what i prefer, but YMMV).

~myz out


(oh, yeah, plus chicks dig the manual. if you havent realized that, you must be doing something or most things wrong )
__________________
Drivin' Lucy
Appreciate 3
      11-25-2017, 10:41 AM   #63
captainaudio
World's Foremost Authority
captainaudio's Avatar
United_States
541
Rep
4,218
Posts

Drives: M4 Cab - Cayenne GTS - Jag XK
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Upper East Side Manhattan - Boca Raton FL - Lime Rock CT

iTrader: (0)

Some quotes from the late racer and journalist Denise McCluggage that seem appropriate.

"Drive what you're in"

"If what you are doing isn't working try something else"

"If you don't like something, change it. If you can't change it, change your attitude."

"Change is the only constant. Hanging on is the only sin."
__________________

Drivers Club at Lime Rock - International Motorsports Research Center - Society of Automotive Historians - Madison Avenue Sports Car Driving and Chowder Society (0nly a VP) - BMWCCA - Porsche Club of America - Simeone Museum - American Mural Project - Saratoga Automobile Museum - Polish Race Drivers of America (PDRA) - Glen Club (Watkins Glen International)

Last edited by captainaudio; 11-25-2017 at 12:25 PM.
Appreciate 0
      11-25-2017, 01:09 PM   #64
Biorin
Lieutenant
Biorin's Avatar
2664
Rep
440
Posts

Drives: to get cheeseburgers
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Sweatervests & Range Rovers

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by (((myzmak))) View Post
....as opposed to a dude who needs someone else to take care of his needs? yeah, i think chicks would prefer a guy who can take care of his own bidniss (ifyouknowwhati'msayin'...... )



yeah, so my point is not from a point of perfect driving technique or track mastery or anything like that, more just about spirited daily driving.

From my 100% unscientific poll based on random threads that i happened to read on here (so you know this is statistically sound as all fuck), a lot of the 'it breaks traction too easily' complaints tend to come from guys who just mash the pedal down hard when doing their stop light hero racing and expect the car to grip like 'no problem, mon' (the ole' on-off switch)

with a manual, while i appreciate you can do that, as MFore notes here



....the fact is, to get the same 'full throttle instantly' requires coordination with the left foot. And, sure, some guy who cares more about how to describe this will inevitably say 'but doesn't he mean clutch control?'



...yeah, like that...

but all i'm saying is that the act of applying throttle from a standing start in a manual just requires more coordination, and thus a little more deliberation rather than 'push right toes to floor'. That act of coordination will, most times, result in a bit more modulation - the few milliseconds most of us take to depress and release clutch in coordination with depressing throttle will result in a slight modulation of putting down the throttle and result in fewer traction issues.

can we just time it and mash it? sure. But to do that in an MT one has to try harder to mash it and break traction - it is easier and requires less effort in a DCT

so, with an MT most of us dont most mash it most of the time.

so, most of the time, MT drivers don't hit the traction issues that DCT drivers can hit in daily driving.

that's it.

not saying MT is better or worse (know what i prefer, but YMMV).

~myz out


(oh, yeah, plus chicks did the manual. if you havent realized that, you must be doing something or most things wrong )
Am chick. Have the manual. Can confirm
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verbiage View Post
you're like, the cocaine godmother of BP.
Appreciate 1
      11-25-2017, 01:27 PM   #65
dinonz
Colonel
United_States
774
Rep
2,259
Posts

Drives: 2016 M3 MWM ZCP
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Austin

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
You are just making circular arguments to justify your point.

You enjoy traditional manuals. I fully respect that. It is an emotional choice.

But the argument made in this post does not make sense...
No - I'm not.

And yes - it makes perfect sense to me. Making sense to you isn't my primary concern.
Appreciate 0
      11-25-2017, 01:35 PM   #66
CanAutM3
Lieutenant General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
4491
Rep
13,396
Posts

Drives: 2015 M4 DCT
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2015 BMW M4  [4.29]
2006 Audi S4  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinonz View Post
No - I'm not.
You say there is no point in driving DCT in manual mode and you don't like how it behaves in automatic mode. This is a circular argument for self justification.

Like I said, I perfectly understand why people chose a traditional manual. And I see nothing wrong with that. However, people who seek to ridicule progress coming with the evolution of automatics (be it DCT or planetary autos), I don't get. Since this debate is emotional, there is no amount of rational that will be able to sway the outcome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinonz View Post
And yes - it makes perfect sense to me. Making sense to you isn't my primary concern.
Sure, if you seek self justification, it does.
__________________
2015 F82 M4
Silverstone / Silverstone / DCT / EDC
MPE / CF Diffuser / CF Mirror caps / CF spoiler / GC Camber plates / Eibach springs
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:39 PM.




f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST