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      11-25-2017, 01:42 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
You say there is no point in driving DCT in manual mode and you don't like how it behaves in automatic mode. This is a circular argument for self justification.

Like I said, I perfectly understand why people chose a traditional manual. And I see nothing wrong with that. However, people who seek to ridicule progress coming with the evolution of automatics (be it DCT or planetary autos), I don't get. Since this debate is emotional, there is no amount of rational that will be able to sway the outcome.

Sure, if you seek self justification, it does.
No - I didn't. Read it again. I said to avoid what I hate about automatics, I would have to use the DCT in manual mode all the time, and if I'm going to do that, I'll get a real manual. I never said anything remotely close to "here is no point in driving DCT in manual mode" - that was your poor interpretation of what I said.

The rest of what you say is now worthless because you've made incorrect assumptions about what I said...
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      11-25-2017, 02:01 PM   #68
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One of my friends has a DCT M2. We were driving up (M2/M3/M4 drive caravan) Monticello for BMW M Track days. She told us after the event she was going to sell her M2 to get a manual.

After spending the day driving the track, with a DCT M2 (and M3, M4, etc) - she changed her mind. She decided that to better focus on driving technique, she preferred the DCT
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      11-25-2017, 02:17 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
That, you'll have to explain to me ???



That is more a question of gearing. 1st gear on the DCT is so crazy short that it is impossible to put the power down. Which means throttle modulation is evem more important with DCT. I've ranted about this more than once. It is the result of cost savings on BMW's part by giving us a "hand-me-down" transmission from the M5/6.
What does "crazy short" mean I comparison with 6MT?

________DCT________MT
1st____4.806______4.11
2nd____2.593______2.315
3rd____1.701______1.542
4th____1.277______1.179
5th____1__________1
6th____0.844______0.846
7th____0.671

Final
Drive___3.462____3.462
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      11-25-2017, 02:30 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
What does "crazy short" mean I comparison with 6MT?

________DCT________MT
1st____4.806______4.11
2nd____2.593______2.315
3rd____1.701______1.542
4th____1.277______1.179
5th____1__________1
6th____0.844______0.846
7th____0.671

Final
Drive___3.462____3.462
17% shorter is quite significant. It means 17% more torque at the wheels, which is a lot considering the 6MT is already borderline traction wise in 1st gear.
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      11-25-2017, 02:34 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinonz View Post
No - I didn't. Read it again. I said to avoid what I hate about automatics, I would have to use the DCT in manual mode all the time, and if I'm going to do that, I'll get a real manual. I never said anything remotely close to "here is no point in driving DCT in manual mode" - that was your poor interpretation of what I said.

The rest of what you say is now worthless because you've made incorrect assumptions about what I said...
I still read the same thing...

You are clearly a "DCT hater" (I am not intending this in an insulting manner) and you will build any rational argument to justify your emotions. You love rowing your own gears and using your foot to clutch. Nothing wrong with that and I can relate to it. My wife and I are presently in mourning because out last 6MT will be gone soon replaced by another dual clutch.
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Last edited by CanAutM3; 11-25-2017 at 02:40 PM.
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      11-25-2017, 02:39 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I still read the same thing...
Is English your first language?
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      11-25-2017, 02:40 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinonz View Post
Is English your first language?
No, my third.
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      11-25-2017, 02:47 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
No, my third.
Guessed that could be the case, as you really have misinterpreted what I said.
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      11-25-2017, 02:51 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinonz View Post
Guessed that could be the case, as you really have misinterpreted what I said.
I still remain quite fluent in English and do capture the subtleties of the language.

Maybe you should re-read your own post yourself. You clearly insinuate that there is no point of driving a DCT in manual mode (because if you would, you'd rather row your own gears).
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      11-25-2017, 02:53 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I still read the same thing...

You are clearly a "DCT hater" (I am not intending this in an insulting manner) and you will build any rational argument to justify your emotions. You love rowing your own gears and using your foot to clutch. Nothing wrong with that and I can relate to it. My wife and I are presently in mourning because out last 6MT will be gone soon replaced by another dual clutch.
And no - I'm not a DCT hater. Believe it or not, I wanted to design and build something not dissimilar back in the 80s - basically wanted an electrically operated clutch, and solenoids/stepper motors to change gears. Also wanted to implement an electric turbo to reduce lag. Wanted to get an SMG when they came out, but back then I was in the cheaper BMWs and couldn't afford an M.

I do like rowing my own gears, but also like the idea of the paddle shift. However, I don't like the idea of the paddle shift if I know it will annoy me when I use it in auto mode - that's half the point of having it is that you can use it in auto mode when you want to. But if it's going to irritate me when doing so, I don't want one as I do not see the point of using it in manual mode 100% of the time when I could have a real manual. If I could use it in manual mode 50% of the time and in auto mode 50% of the time provided it didn't annoy me, I'd probably be happy with one. I drove one 4 or 5 times before ordering a 6MT - probably because on the last drive it chopped down when it didn't need to.
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      11-25-2017, 02:54 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I still remain quite fluent in English and do capture the subtleties of the language.

Maybe you should re-read your own post yourself. You clearly insinuate that there is no point of driving a DCT *100% of the time* in manual mode (because if you would, you'd rather row your own gears).
No - I absolutely did not insinuate that. You completely misinterpreted what I wrote. You dropped the *100% of the time* which changed what I wrote completely. Read it again.
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      11-25-2017, 10:04 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Refined View Post
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...hout-a-manual/

"There are some cars that are just better without a manual transmission. For one reason or another, having an automatic or dual-clutch suits these cars better, and makes for an overall more positive driving experience over a traditional six-speed.

If there's one car I'd recommend going for the auto, it's the current-generation BMW M3 and M4. While the six-speed manual is good, the cars' optional seven-speed dual-clutch automatic is much better-matched to that 3.0-liter turbocharged straight-six. In the manual, the delay between shifts causes the car to drop out of boost, while in the fast-shifting DCT, that's something you don't have to worry about."

Well I did have a bit of a dilemma when I purchased mine, but today I feel just a little better about my choice.
Agreed, which is why the next M car I own will be an E92 M3. After driving both F80 DCT and owning a 6 speed F83 there's a pretty big difference. Loved the F83 6 speed though don't get me wrong.

Wife may still go F80 DCT individual route though.
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      11-26-2017, 08:35 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
What does "crazy short" mean I comparison with 6MT?

________DCT________MT
1st____4.806______4.11
2nd____2.593______2.315
3rd____1.701______1.542
4th____1.277______1.179
5th____1__________1
6th____0.844______0.846
7th____0.671

Final
Drive___3.462____3.462
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
17% shorter is quite significant. It means 17% more torque at the wheels, which is a lot considering the 6MT is already borderline traction wise in 1st gear.
No kidding. If you wanted to achieve the equivalent 1st gear overall gearing in the 6MT, you would need to swap the 3.462 for a 4.05:1 differential gear!
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      11-26-2017, 02:05 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinonz View Post

I do like rowing my own gears, but also like the idea of the paddle shift. However, I don't like the idea of the paddle shift if I know it will annoy me when I use it in auto mode - that's half the point of having it is that you can use it in auto mode when you want to. But if it's going to irritate me when doing so, I don't want one as I do not see the point of using it in manual mode 100% of the time when I could have a real manual. If I could use it in manual mode 50% of the time and in auto mode 50% of the time provided it didn't annoy me, I'd probably be happy with one. I drove one 4 or 5 times before ordering a 6MT - probably because on the last drive it chopped down when it didn't need to.
Not that preferences have to make sense, but hopeful you realize this makes zero of that sense.

I can't really comment on the behavior of the DCT in auto because I've never driven it that way in 6 years because, like you, I prefer to shift gears myself and I don't like the programming ... but that's not actually true because I've never tried it, I just don't like the car shifting, anyway ...

except for one time about 3 weeks ago ... It was weird scenario where I was hauling some stuff and ended up having to hold it with my shiftin hand so I just bumped it into auto. At first it was horrible and I was suffering mightily, but then I hit all the buttons to max out everything and then it seemed to drive normal.

Anyway, my point is, I prefer to drive manually but there is an occasional scenario where I'd like the option of auto, so with the DCT I have that.

All of that said, I still think the MT and DCT are different worlds and you really can't compare, and we shouldn't try, as much as I enjoy these threads. It just annoys me when people claiming to be purists argue the DCT is "a few milliseconds faster" thus invalidating their opinion of anything performance car related.

That's like saying Bella Thorn is just "a tiny teensy bit" hotter than Lena Dunham.

NOTE: For visualization purposes only - for safety, do not attempt comparison at home

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Last edited by GrussGott; 11-26-2017 at 02:26 PM.
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      11-26-2017, 03:39 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Not that preferences have to make sense, but hopeful you realize this makes zero of that sense.
"this makes zero of that sense" to you.

Makes perfect sense to me. You don't have to understand.
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      11-26-2017, 05:08 PM   #82
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Love these DCT vs 6MT threads.

I drove a 6MT M3 a mere few weeks ago and absolutely loved it. Unlike the F1X M5/M6, the 6MT did NOT feel like an after thought. The F8X is amazing in both guises. DCT is faster, 6MT is arguably more fun.

My next M car will be a manual.
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      11-26-2017, 07:22 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AhsanU View Post
Love these DCT vs 6MT threads.

I drove a 6MT M3 a mere few weeks ago and absolutely loved it. Unlike the F1X M5/M6, the 6MT did NOT feel like an after thought. The F8X is amazing in both guises. DCT is faster, 6MT is arguably more fun.

My next M car will be a manual.
I am a witness who can verify that this really did happen, and he's right 6MT is a blast to drive, and to those who enjoy manual, the F80 6MT feels like it fits the car perfectly. To me it adds another dimension to driving fun and is easily one of my favorite features. That doesn't mean others can't prefer DCT, which is why it's nice that we have both options, for now
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      11-26-2017, 07:51 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bringbacklsb View Post
I am a witness who can verify that this really did happen, and he's right 6MT is a blast to drive, and to those who enjoy manual, the F80 6MT feels like it fits the car perfectly. To me it adds another dimension to driving fun and is easily one of my favorite features. That doesn't mean others can't prefer DCT, which is why it's nice that we have both options, for now
On some of my cars the transmission choice seemed very obvious even it there was no choice. The Miata is a car that IMO should have an MT. The Jag and the 750Lix were not available with MTs and even if they were the AT would have been my choice. I am perfectly happy with the AT in the Porsche Cayenne GTS and it seems well matched to that vehicle.

The M4 strikes me as a car that is well matched to either the DCT or the MT and neither seem out of place to me in that car. I'll have to admit that I would prefer that the M4 MT allowed you to defeat rev matching in all modes but all in all I think it is a good transmission and well suite to the car. I opted for the DCT in my M4 and don't regret that decision. Perhaps if I did not own and have access to cars with MT I would feel differently.

We buy these cars because we want them, not because we need them. They go far beyond being basic transportation to get us where we need (or want) to go. If you are buying a car for the enjoyment of driving then you obviously you should get one you enjoy driving. Just don't assume that everyone would, or should, make the same choice that you did or that you are more knowledgeable or a more skilled driver than those who did not make the same choice.
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Last edited by captainaudio; 11-26-2017 at 07:56 PM.
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      11-26-2017, 10:11 PM   #85
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Quote:
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...I would prefer that the M4 MT allowed you to defeat rev matching in all modes...
Just FYI that can be done via coding - disables it in all modes.
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      11-26-2017, 10:34 PM   #86
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lol these threads are sooo funny
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      11-26-2017, 11:43 PM   #87
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I can contribute this wisdom:

If I had gotten my F80 in 6MT, there is some slight chance I would get rid of it to go into a DCT. Instead I got it with the DCT and presently there's a 75% chance I'll be getting out of it in the spring largely due to the need to have a 6MT.
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      11-26-2017, 11:57 PM   #88
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