[ZPrime]

I have a few install questions on the Schroth QuickFit harnesses, and I wanted to share something I learned as well.

1. Are the factory belt bolts a standard 6-point bolt, or something funky? (VW/Audi uses triple-square socket-head [female] seatbelt bolts.)
2. Anybody have the proper torque specs for the belt bolts so I can re-tighten properly instead of using the "gutentight" method?
3. Any tips or tricks needed to get to the rear seat bolt? Does the rear bench just lift up and then pull out? Will I need to take out any other trim to get to the belt point?

And now the interesting bit I discovered... the Schroth Quickfit for VW/Audi seems to be identical to the one they sell for E92 BMW (which I believe is the "right" set to use for our car). My Schroth belt set from my 2012 TT clips in securely and fully to the BMW receptacles.

[dvas]

I use these belts in my car. Standard bolts hold on the OEM belts in place. They may be the star pattern rather than hex, I can't recall exactly. The rear seat is just clipped in. Pull up and out.

I'm not sure on the torque specs, maybe someone else can help out with that.

[Tano]

Here you can find the required torque infos. It's 42 Nm.

[ZPrime]

Originally Posted by Tano

Here you can find the required torque infos. It's 42 Nm.

Interesting, the torque specs say "renew screw." Does that mean "reuse," or maybe "re-apply thread-locker compound"? There are other lines that say "replace screw" so I don't think that "renew" means "replace"...

From the picture it looks like it may be a female torx head / male torx driver bit.

[omasou]

1. Yes, torx
2. Tano provided
3. All BMW rear seats, lift up from front middle edge

I reused the bolt and now that you mention it will go back and add some blue loctite.

A lot of BMW procedures recommend replacing bolts, e.g. suspension. Some think it's overkill others just follow the instructions. I replaced some parts on my X5 suspension and ended up replacing all of the bolt b/c my friend insisted that I should and they were parts that are not replaced very often (~80k miles or greater) and only costed me $30 or so extra to do. Though I always replace nylock nuts.

[barbee810]

I spoke with HMS Motorsports and they said it was "not approved" for the M2 because they have not done a sled test to confirm the seat will handle the g-load in an accident. Is this just them cya in case something goes wrong or is this legitimate?

[omasou]

I also spoke w/them and they stated the same and instead recommended the rallye, which are a generic set for "all" cars.

If you compare the installation instruction constraints, I think your question will be answered.

http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1392715

http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1355999

[ZPrime]

I'd say it's a CYA...

[fleetfoot]

One of the concerns I've heard about running the E92 QFP in an F87 is that the angle of the tail straps is different and could lead to spinal compression. I own both an E92 and an F87 so I just measured and compared the angle in both. My approach on the driver's side was to tie a string to the rear female seat buckle and run it to the right side post on the headrest. I put both seats in my "track position". The angle of the string on each was exactly the same: 46 degrees.

The strength of the seatback is still an unknown without a sled test, but at least we can put the angle question to rest.

[TargaM2]

Not sure where you are located or what Motorsport you are competing in but a harness is not a safe option with a 2 piece seat & not allowed in various Motorsport disciplines.
Yes there is a Schroth vehicle specific harness designed for club level track day use, however a harness with a 2 piece seat is generally never a good idea due to the inherent dangers of the backrest collapsing.
A minimum 45+ degrees taper is fine & due to the length the belts should be crossed over between the seat & rear mounting points. (My RS200 tarmac rally car & my M2 road/track car below for reference).

[fleetfoot]

Originally Posted by TargaM2

Not sure where you are located or what Motorsport you are competing in but a harness is not a safe option with a 2 piece seat & not allowed in various Motorsport disciplines.
Yes there is a Schroth vehicle specific harness designed for club level track day use, however a harness with a 2 piece seat is generally never a good idea due to the inherent dangers of the backrest collapsing.
A minimum 45+ degrees taper is fine & due to the length the belts should be crossed over between the seat & rear mounting points. (My RS200 tarmac rally car & my M2 road/track car below for reference).

This thread is discussing the Schroth QuitFit Pro which is tested and approved for 2 piece seats.
https://www.schrothracing.com/item/s...-quickfit-pro/

[TargaM2]

Originally Posted by fleetfoot

This thread is discussing the Schroth QuitFit Pro which is tested and approved for 2 piece seats.
https://www.schrothracing.com/item/s...-quickfit-pro/

I’m aware of that as per my post that there is an approved Schroth vehicle specific harness for that use but it is only approved for a few approved vehicles/seats.
Everything I said still applies, if you want to use a harness on track which is obviously advisable then you should also be using a 1 piece seat.

[David.m]

Originally Posted by TargaM2

I’m aware of that as per my post that there is an approved Schroth vehicle specific harness for that use but it is only approved for a few approved vehicles/seats.
Everything I said still applies, if you want to use a harness on track which is obviously advisable then you should also be using a 1 piece seat.

We'd be reasonable in believing the F22 seat is of equal or better construction/strength to the e82/92 seat that was tested and approved for the
Schroth Quickfit. Fitment in our car is identical to the e series so while Schroth won't 'approve' use in the F87 there is no reason to believe it would perform any differently.

The 2nd point about using it with a 2 piece seat should really be a comparison against the oem 3 point lap/sash belt. If you have a 1 piece seat then safety obviously dictates you should have at minimum a half cage in which case you then have mounting points for a normal harness so no need for a Quickfit.

With ASM tech the Quickfit works/restrains similar to a lap/sash, except for a catastrophic rollover where you may be held more upright than a lap/sash I'm not sure there would be any circumstance where you would be worse off with the Quickfit over a lap/sash? If anyone has seen the video of the F22 crashing on a UK trackday when it rolls over I'd say 5-8 times (hard to see for all the dust) it's surprising how well the roof withstands all the impacts.

[TargaM2]

Originally Posted by David.m

We'd be reasonable in believing the F22 seat is of equal or better construction/strength to the e82/92 seat that was tested and approved for the
Schroth Quickfit. Fitment in our car is identical to the e series so while Schroth won't 'approve' use in the F87 there is no reason to believe it would perform any differently.

The 2nd point about using it with a 2 piece seat should really be a comparison against the oem 3 point lap/sash belt. If you have a 1 piece seat then safety obviously dictates you should have at minimum a half cage in which case you then have mounting points for a normal harness so no need for a Quickfit.

With ASM tech the Quickfit works/restrains similar to a lap/sash, except for a catastrophic rollover where you may be held more upright than a lap/sash I'm not sure there would be any circumstance where you would be worse off with the Quickfit over a lap/sash? If anyone has seen the video of the F22 crashing on a UK trackday when it rolls over I'd say 5-8 times (hard to see for all the dust) it's surprising how well the roof withstands all the impacts.

You can assume all you like about the quickfit/F87 compatibility & i understand the frustration but unfortunately the fact is its not approved for use in the F87.
Your 2nd point about safety “obviously” dictating you require a cage when using a harness is absolute rubbish. A 1 piece seat & correctly fitted harness is the safest/best track option regardless of whether you are using a cage or not (obviously a cage offers an additional benefit & is required when progressing to higher levels of competition).
As a national level scrutineer for the past couple of decades & competition car builder/competitor for even longer I can assure you many cars can be & are fitted with a 6 point harness & 1 piece seat safely/correctly without using a cage, if you don’t know how that’s just ignorance not factual.

[David.m]

Originally Posted by TargaM2

You can assume all you like about the quickfit/F87 compatibility & I understand your frustration but unfortunately the fact is it’s not approved for use in the F87.
Your 2nd point about safety “obviously” dictating you require a cage when using a harness is absolute rubbish. A 1 piece seat & correctly fitted harness is the safest/best track option regardless of whether you are using a cage or not (obviously a cage offers an additional benefit & is required when progressing to higher levels of competition).
As a national level scrutineer for the past couple of decades & competition car builder/competitor for even longer I can assure you many cars can be & are fitted with a 6 point harness & 1 piece seat safely/correctly without using a cage, if you don’t know how that’s just ignorance not factual.

thanks for politely correcting me....no doubt you're more informed on this subject than I am. Of course 'not approved' doesn't preclude it from operating identical to an install in the approved e82/92, my point was it's not unreasonable to conclude so. Wondering, do you know of any testing comparing a 4 point like the Quickfit against a lap/sash?

I'm genuinely curious though about a harness/1 piece seat, are you saying use of these is considered safe without any re-enforced overhead structure in case of roll-over? (ie solely relying on integrity of the oem pillars/roof structure)

[TargaM2]

Originally Posted by David.m

thanks for politely correcting me....no doubt you're more informed on this subject than I am. Of course 'not approved' doesn't preclude it from operating identical to an install in the approved e82/92, my point was it's not unreasonable to conclude so. Wondering, do you know of any testing comparing a 4 point like the Quickfit against a lap/sash?

I'm genuinely curious though about a harness/1 piece seat, are you saying use of these is considered safe without any re-enforced overhead structure in case of roll-over? (ie solely relying on integrity of the oem pillars/roof structure)

Any 4 point harness is no longer approved for track use in Oz, it has been that way for several years now. A minimum 5 point (preferably 6 point) is required (yes I’m aware of ASM tech in the Schroth qikfit). You can update your qikfit pro 4 point to a 6 point quite easily though as the round release buckle is slotted for the extra input & the crotch belt is available separately from Schroth (if you have the old clip in style release buckle rather than the round type then you need a new belt as those are no longer approved & unable to be used with a HANS device either).
No of course I’m not saying any seat/harness combo is safe in a rollover, obviously a cage is required for any form of r-o-p.
Please go to the “Motorsport Australia” website for any safety related information, a forum is not the right place to enquire about such things, especially an international forum as all countries have very different regulations.

[David.m]

Originally Posted by TargaM2

Any 4 point harness is no longer approved for track use in Oz, it has been that way for several years now. A minimum 5 point (preferably 6 point) is required (yes I’m aware of ASM tech in the Schroth qikfit). You can update your qikfit 4 point to a 6 point quite easily.
No of course I’m not saying any seat/harness combo is safe in a rollover, obviously a cage is required for any form of r-o-p.
Please go to the “Motorsport Australia” website for any safety related information, a forum is not the right place to enquire about such things.

You'll understand the apparent inconsistency with saying on one hand the Schroth Quickfit (correctly installed) is not safe but replace it with a fixed seat/harness & all is good?
The MA website will only say what's required/approved, won't help with explanatory notes/supporting docs.
Why isn't a Forum a place to discuss safety? Some informed comment accompanied by supporting evidence would surely be of benefit to all

[fleetfoot]

TargaM2 I have a hypothetical situation that might help us draw on the wealth of knowledge and experience you have: if I were (hypothetically) to hire you as a driving coach, and you had the choice of instructing me in my E92 with 4-point QFP harnesses and no roll cage OR my F87 with the OEM 3-points, which car would you prefer to ride in for your own personal safety? For simplicity, let's assume you're wearing a Simpson Hybrid-S and the cars will be limited to the same max speeds.

[David.m]

Originally Posted by TargaM2

Any 4 point harness is no longer approved for track use in Oz, it has been that way for several years now. A minimum 5 point (preferably 6 point) is required (yes I’m aware of ASM tech in the Schroth qikfit).

You sure about that?, Technical Appendix Schedule I - Safety Harnesses & Window Nets, Table I-2 indicates you are correct for Circuit Race, Rally, Off Road or Speed (only where FHR required) events but 3 & 4 point harnesses (Type B) are specifically approved for certain events/vehicle types eg Speed events (when no FHR required) using road registered vehicles to name one.

Plse correct me if I'm reading this wrong

https://www.motorsport.org.au/docs/d...sn=4e2f976e_14

[PackPride85]

Here are the facts: the Quickfit harness is not approved for the F87 because they have not tested the F87 seats. If you want to assume they are equal or stronger than e82 seats go for it, but there is zero test evidence of that. Also, none of Schroth testing for ASM or their quick fit harness setup is to any kind of approved industry standard. They made up the test parameters themselves.

That being said, it’s really more of a personal risk decision.

[David.m]

Originally Posted by PackPride85

Here are the facts: the Quickfit harness is not approved for the F87 because they have not tested the F87 seats. If you want to assume they are equal or stronger than e82 seats go for it, but there is zero test evidence of that. Also, none of Schroth testing for ASM or their quick fit harness setup is to any kind of approved industry standard. They made up the test parameters themselves.

That being said, it’s really more of a personal risk decision.

correct that I don't have evidence of the F87, e82/92 seat testing but to say there is no evidence is overlooking the rigorous crash/safety testing all vehicles undergo during R&D and later by various regulatory bodies that result in a vehicle/model safety rating.

Of course it's possible BMW went to a weaker seat back structure in the F series but without evidence of that it surely is reasonable and the most likely case that the F seat is equal or better.

Schroth's testing I imagine is consistent with the type of testing accepted in the industry otherwise imagine the financial risk (ie litigation) they are exposed to in 'approving' the Quickfit/Pro for fitment as they prescribe.

Ultimately as you say it's personal choice, for a road registered car without a cage & using a 3/4 point harness I'd much rather have the Schroth with ASM & oem seat.

[fleetfoot]

It looks like I'm not going to get a response to my hypothetical question above, so I decided to take ChatGPT for a spin (no pun intended). Obviously I have zero trust in ChatGPT as a safety expert, but I thought the response was well thought out and interesting, so I'll share here:

Given the hypothetical safety situation and the choice between the two cars, as a safety-conscious driving coach with extensive experience, I would prefer to ride in the 2013 E92 BMW 328i with 4-point Schroth QuickFit Pro harnesses.

The reason for this choice is that the 4-point harness provides a superior level of occupant restraint compared to the OEM 3-point seatbelts in the 2017 F87 BMW M2. The 4-point harness will help keep you securely in place during high-speed maneuvers and in the event of sudden braking or cornering forces. This added restraint minimizes the risk of injury and increases the chances of staying properly positioned in the seat, which is crucial for maintaining control of the vehicle.

The 2017 BMW M2 may be a more powerful and performance-oriented car, but without a roll cage, the 4-point harness in the 2013 BMW 328i offers better safety features for track driving. A roll cage can significantly enhance the safety of a vehicle by providing additional protection in case of a rollover, but since neither car has a roll cage, the choice remains between the seatbelt systems.

To maximize personal safety, a combination of a 4-point harness and a Simpson Hybrid-S device would be the preferred setup for a driving coach like myself. The Hybrid-S provides additional head and neck protection, reducing the risk of injury in the event of sudden deceleration or impact.

Remember, safety should always be the top priority when engaging in motorsport activities. The equipment and restraints used can make a significant difference in potential outcomes in case of an accident.