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      05-19-2011, 02:23 PM   #23
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S65 Bi Turbo! Do It!!!!!!!!!!!!
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You sound like my buddies who have AMG's - Slam the gas, slam the brakes...
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      05-19-2011, 02:23 PM   #24
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      05-19-2011, 02:26 PM   #25
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good info, very interesting
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      05-19-2011, 02:26 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick berry View Post
I would like to see either the s65 or s63 varients myself. 500-550 horses is would be perfect, with the new M5 @ 600 horses.
E60 M5 had 500 HP and the E92 has ~420HP. Keeping the 70-80HP gap between the M5 and M3, if the F10 M5 weighs in at ~600HP, I can see the F30 M3 putting down ~490-500HP. To get that from a I6 will truly be an marvel of german engineering. More likely it would be a twin turbo V8. In that respect, I hope they keep the current S63 engine and modify it vs lets say shoving the engine from the 550i in an M3 body (hey they did it with the 1M in taking the Z4 N54 engine!)

A twin turbo V6? On paper, it works for Nissan GTR, but we are BMW fans, not Nissan fans. The workhorse I6 is what brought us to this flame. Don't cheat us mid flight!
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      05-19-2011, 02:33 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E60orBust View Post
E60 M5 had 500 HP and the E92 has ~420HP. Keeping the 70-80HP gap between the M5 and M3, if the F10 M5 weighs in at ~600HP, I can see the F30 M3 putting down ~490-500HP. To get that from a I6 will truly be an marvel of german engineering. More likely it would be a twin turbo V8. In that respect, I hope they keep the current S63 engine and modify it vs lets say shoving the engine from the 550i in an M3 body (hey they did it with the 1M in taking the Z4 N54 engine!)

A twin turbo V6? On paper, it works for Nissan GTR, but we are BMW fans, not Nissan fans. The workhorse I6 is what brought us to this flame. Don't cheat us mid flight!
+1 good words.
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      05-19-2011, 02:37 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E60orBust View Post
E60 M5 had 500 HP and the E92 has ~420HP. Keeping the 70-80HP gap between the M5 and M3, if the F10 M5 weighs in at ~600HP, I can see the F30 M3 putting down ~490-500HP. To get that from a I6 will truly be an marvel of german engineering. More likely it would be a twin turbo V8. In that respect, I hope they keep the current S63 engine and modify it vs lets say shoving the engine from the 550i in an M3 body (hey they did it with the 1M in taking the Z4 N54 engine!)

A twin turbo V6? On paper, it works for Nissan GTR, but we are BMW fans, not Nissan fans. The workhorse I6 is what brought us to this flame. Don't cheat us mid flight!
based on a quick calculation i made
turbocharging the S65 while keeping a gap between M3 and M5 (assuming the M5 puts out 575hp)
and what was said in the article about a small jump in hp, but big jump in torque
i'd guess 475 HP
and closer to 400lb/ft
damn nice!!
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      05-19-2011, 02:37 PM   #29
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...And everyone is excited again!

BMW doesn't want to be AMG in terms of engine configurations but they're sure acting like AMG by slapping an M badge across all models which I still think is wrong. As awesome as the specs are, an X5/X6 M is so wrong and by adding a M variant of the X3, I think they're diluting the M brand. I know it's a business and it's about making money but come on now...
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      05-19-2011, 02:38 PM   #30
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How about a twin turbo S54 variant...

A 3.3L turbo could easily put down 450bhp (136bph/L) with some good tuning and a high redline on a good breathing engine.

I would be surprised if the new M3 had 8 turbocharged cylinders. Probably even more surprised by a V6 given BMWs history and gospel of straight 6 perfection.
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      05-19-2011, 02:43 PM   #31
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With so many aftermarket SC S65 options why wouldn't BMW consider this route over turbo charging? Seems to be working with Audi's 3.0T.
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      05-19-2011, 02:44 PM   #32
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Here's my take (whether you want it or not)

Quote:
1. S65 V8 Biturbo Engine
Believability: 10%

Why? We already have two turbo V8s - the S63 and N63 - so I don't how it will make a good business case to build yet another one.

Quote:
2. Modified N54 Engine
Believability: 70%

Why? An "S55" would follow on logically just like the N63->S63 evolution. And I personally think 160hp/L will be very feasibly for M division. Granted, there is still a discrepancy as far as the N55 vs. the N54 forming the basis. When it comes down to it, the primary difference is turbo setup and Valvetronic. But those two will be weighed independently by M either way.

Quote:
3. Modified S63 Engine
Believeability factor: 25%

Why? While this would make a lot more sense than the turbo'd S65 would, I still don't think BMW will go through with it. They need to play up the greener image that people have of engines with lower cylinder count. Make no mistake, they are going to do all they can to tie the Efficient Dynamics story into the M3 as tightly as possible.

Quote:
4. V6 Engine Based on the S63
Believability factor: < 1%

Why? I just don't think it makes any sense. As I see it, fitment issues with the V8 as far as an X3 M or Z4 M are due to the turbos, intercoolers, plumbing etc, most likely. If you are going to have to move them no matter what the cylinder count, then you could just as easily relocate them for the V8, and not spend all the money developing a V6 block, crank, cams, heads, not to mention testing all that. And for less displacement, no need to lose cylinders - just destroke/debore the V8.
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      05-19-2011, 02:44 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
Only downside is (and it's a big one): How does BMW make a credible switch to a V6 engine without upsetting BMW fans and owners for abandoning the inline-6 philosophy. Former M CEO Dr. Segler did say that BMW does not subscribe to dogmas, but we're not sure he had this in mind.
Audi recently did the same thing with the S4. Not only did they go from a V8 to a V6 but they left off the turbos from the classic B5 S4 and bolted a supercharger. Yes, there were moans and groans at first but everyone accepted the present engine and moved on. Especially after seeing that a chip can push it to 400hp.

I think BMW should do what's right for the car and not worry about the critics. Just make the thing fly and embarrass the competition and it will be a hit. I have no doubt that it will be fantastic.
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      05-19-2011, 02:48 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by My E90 View Post
Audi recently did the same thing with the S4. Not only did they go from a V8 to a V6 but they left off the turbos from the classic B5 S4 and bolted a supercharger. Yes, there were moans and groans at first but everyone accepted the present engine and moved on. Especially after seeing that a chip can push it to 400hp.

I think BMW should do what's right for the car and not worry about the critics. Just make the thing fly and embarrass the competition and it will be a hit. I have no doubt that it will be fantastic.
In fact, the latest rumor in the Audi world has it that the supercharger will be replaced by a turbocharger in the next generation of that engine.
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      05-19-2011, 02:51 PM   #35
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+1 for keeping a v8 (even if it has to be turbo)

Just leave the M5/M6 with the bigger v8 in it and all in the world will be right.
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      05-19-2011, 02:51 PM   #36
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I'm holding out for the octo-tubro S65.... one turbo per cylinder please!
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      05-19-2011, 02:52 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
With Audi and MB going V8 biturbo, could BMW really counter with a V6? That's all they can come up with ? There's only ONE right answer of the 4 choices.

.
I would argue that BMW has always taken an approach of doing more with less in the M cars. A good example is comparing the current 4.0L V8 in the M3 to the 6.2L V8 in the C63. Previous to that, the M3 ran the 3.2L inline-6 while Mercedes and Audi ran 4.2L and 5.5L V8s.

I think it is very possible for BMW to do a 6-cylinder M3 in the next generation without worrying about it competing with the V8s. History shows that they compete anyway and generally win.
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      05-19-2011, 02:52 PM   #38
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All those options sound to me. It would not surprise me if they went to a v6. Why worry about heritage when all you care about is money?
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      05-19-2011, 02:57 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advevo View Post
For me the only car that has a sporty future is a 1 serie ///M car. Whatever engine they put in the new m3 it will be a smaller M5. If that s youre thing the new M3 will be for you.
I more or less agree. The 1M is going to pick up the torch as far as the entry level M vehicle, and the next one will almost surely trounce the current M3 in performance (the current one is close as it is). So even moving to the 1M from an E9x M3 is going to be an upgrade in straight line performance and acceleration, and handling will probably be much better as well.

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BTW, GREAT THREAD SOUTH
Yes. A little excitement for the board is a good thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug007 View Post
How about a twin turbo S54 variant...

A 3.3L turbo could easily put down 450bhp (136bph/L) with some good tuning and a high redline on a good breathing engine.
The big-bore I6 requires the iron block though. You end up killing the weight up front, and you need more power to compensate for that weight to boot. I'd rather just see them detune the 3L aluminum I6 if they had to. But as I said, I don't think they do have to - I think they know exactly how to get big power from this engine. BMW's gonna build themselves their modern day RB26DETT or 2JZ-GTE. You will see.
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      05-19-2011, 03:00 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E60orBust View Post

A twin turbo V6? On paper, it works for Nissan GTR, but we are BMW fans, not Nissan fans. The workhorse I6 is what brought us to this flame. Don't cheat us mid flight!
I don't think they care about BMW fans. If they did, we would have NA engines with KERS. For a six figure car, that is totally doable. Marketing just cares about money.
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      05-19-2011, 03:03 PM   #41
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MB is definitely (well almost definitely - remember when the C55 went to C32? Who knows - it could happen again) going V8 turbo for the next C AMG, I am not convinced at all that is where Audi is headed with the RS4/RS5. You could very easily see a SC or turbo 6 in the next version (B9+) of those cars, IMHO. Even the B8 RS4 Avant may get such an engine (if/when it arrives) though I think the RS5 N/A V8 is probably more likely for now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
With Audi and MB going V8 biturbo, could BMW really counter with a V6? That's all they can come up with ? There's only ONE right answer of the 4 choices.

.
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      05-19-2011, 03:13 PM   #42
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N54/N55 just doesn't make that much sense to me, especially since the N54 design will be almost 10 years old by the time the F3x M3 comes out. If they keep that engine throughout the F3x M3 lifecycle (typical), you'd be looking at a 15 year old engine by the end of the F3x. Way too old!
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      05-19-2011, 03:15 PM   #43
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Sorry but I am for an 8.500 RPM Tri-Turbo 90 V6 and 1550 kg (DIN). Best solution IMHO.
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      05-19-2011, 03:24 PM   #44
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If mitsu can get 300hp from 2.0 turbo, BMW should be able to extract 400+ from N54. I like the idea of a lighter 6-cylinder car. The M3 engine is also light, the M5 engine is too heavy for this applicaiton.

What AMG does is irrelevant, M3 and any AMG car are in a different segment.
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