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      05-20-2011, 01:56 AM   #111
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As far as the X3M goes, I'm not sure if there's a market for it. That's probably the reason why Mercedes never shoehorned the 5.5L BiTurbo or 6.3L into the GLK class (which would have been a poppin SUV). I can see BMW building a test mule and eventually scrapping the project due to the inability to build a business case for it.

Engine wise... A Turbo S65 makes no sense because BMW already has a similar engine in the S63. Why redevelop a whole new engine?

As far as shoehorning the S63, it's ironic that it says it won't fit into the X3. That means the F3x must be HUGE lol. I can't see this as being an option because that brings it dangerously close to the M5. Wouldn't this also throw off weight balance?

I actually see 2 and 4 as the most realistic options.

It makes sense that they would chop 2 cylinders off the S63 engine to make the new engine. Would the two less cylinders affect the Cylinder-Bank Comprehensive Manifold? I think it would because from what I understand the CCM connects the cylinders in opposing pairs. With only 3 pairs, that's not possible. CCM is one of the things that gives the S63 its lack of turbo-lag. I'm no engineer but thats just how I understood it.

Which leaves the N55 / N54... Personally I think this is what will end up happening. However, i think it will be heavily modified and have completely different characteristics.

Whatever BMW comes up with I trust will create a bangin' car that will have all the characteristics that we love. The total package is going to be great. I have faith.
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      05-20-2011, 02:27 AM   #112
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N56 here we come!
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      05-20-2011, 03:24 AM   #113
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It will probably be between the V6 and the N54 I6, because the other engines have more fuel consumption due to higher displacement. Space fitting issues too. I don't think BMW will go over 3.3 liters due to efficiency reasons. The lowest cost of development will be on the current TT V8 and the modified N54. And the TT V8 does not fit the fuel consumption bill.

And BMW couldn't pass up the track record of the N54. The R&D on engine longevity has already been done by the thousands of tuned N54s which hold on incredibly well at 420+ hp, and show no additional unwanted driveability changes (turbo-lag, etc.) compared to stock. How many prototypes could BMW use to test the engine longevity ? They surely can't match the sheer number of tuned N54s If BMW replaces the fueling system with a larger capacity one and upgrades the turbos, and maybe increase the redline to 7500RPMs, this could be a winner.

Also, in my country the taxes go incredibly high on engines over 3 liters of displacement. This is probably the case in other countries too. Maybe BMW should also consider this aspect of the M3 cost of ownership.

Last edited by cstavaru; 05-20-2011 at 03:32 AM.
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      05-20-2011, 05:33 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
With a TT V8 M5, there WILL NOT be a TT V8 M3. Not only due to emissions and weight, but COST. And if it was a TT V8, it definitely wouldn't be the S65, so stop dreaming . It'd take significant changes, adding to the cost, when they already have 2 similarly sized TT V8s.

My money is on a TT V6 derived from the S63 TT V8, just like the S65 was derived from the S85. Yes, it'll be sacrilege, but so was an M truck .

Finally, I personally think that article is pure BS. At this point, they're already testing that engine somewhere. Or close to.
I agree with this.
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      05-20-2011, 06:17 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advevo View Post
For me the only car that has a sporty future is a 1 serie ///M car. Whatever engine they put in the new m3 it will be a smaller M5. If that s youre thing the new M3 will be for you.
Correct....I fully agree with you.
BMW M doesn't speak about the incredible gains of weight over the past years. Maybe they should concentrate their efforts in this direction and continue to use some of their current inline 6 engines.
The advantage of lower weight can be noticed in the new 1M. THis car is compact, relatively light compared to the M3 and has much more agility then an M3. You don't need 400 or more HP to make a car fast and easy to handle. IT's all a question about weight.
So please you people at M, consider first a reduction of weight and use what you have in your stores....and please don't abandon the inline 6 for a V6 la AUDI or MB.....We M addicted will thank you therefore.
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      05-20-2011, 06:28 AM   #116
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The 1M is the only thing from M to get excited about for sure. I would love to see better proportions on the next-gen 1M and lighter weight via a Turbo 4 possibly. If I'm going to consider a turbo, I'm at least going to have a more enjoyable car to go along with it. I have no use for any of the big M turbo barges.
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      05-20-2011, 07:14 AM   #117
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S65 V8 Biturbo Engine suitable for Z4M??

What the hell? That is complete nonsence. It was reiterated million times that even non turbo S65 will not fit into Z4 engine bay.. (unless it was a complete lie from the beginning)

I fear the article is wrong in other areas too.
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      05-20-2011, 07:20 AM   #118
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I honestly think that nearly everyone's opinions about V8, V6, Inline 6 etc. will go out the window as long as BMW puts together an engine that performs. At the end of the day I don't care if they put a 4 cyl in the car as long as it's fast and handles well.
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      05-20-2011, 07:27 AM   #119
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Whatever it has I'm ordering one as soon as they are available in Dakar Yellow. From Jimmy and Ryan.
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      05-20-2011, 07:27 AM   #120
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I knowthe S65 TT would be the one that I would love to see,but I am pretty sure whatever BMW decides it will be something pretty special.I will wait till the final information is known and then decide if my next car is another M3.
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      05-20-2011, 07:47 AM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jozsika View Post
39 - 2006 330i sport with heated seats to warm my old bones : )
I know this is off topic (both my post and the one I reply to here), but MAN there have been so many posts lately that end up in the wrong thread. I have even done it myself once, but I caught it and fixed it. Anyway, I have noticed this phenomenon all over bimmerpost.

Now, here is my threory - IE9. I know we don't all use IE, but a lot of us do. And IE9 was recently released, and people are still getting used to it. The thing is, I have to say that IE9, in conjunction with the Windows 7 Areo interface, may have the worst tabbed UI I have ever seen as far as indicating which tab is the active one. Honest. If you are using IE9 now, just look at the row of tabs in your browser. Its just that little lightly shaded area that shows which is active. Really, Microsoft? That's the best you can do? Anyway, this has thrown me a few times. It is very easy to look at that row and think that you are replying in one thread, but in reality it is another.

Ok, end rant, and back to your regularly scheduled thread.
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      05-20-2011, 07:54 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I know this is off topic (both my post and the one I reply to here), but MAN there have been so many posts lately that end up in the wrong thread. I have even done it myself once, but I caught it and fixed it. Anyway, I have noticed this phenomenon all over bimmerpost.

Now, here is my threory - IE9. I know we don't all use IE, but a lot of us do. And IE9 was recently released, and people are still getting used to it. The thing is, I have to say that IE9, in conjunction with the Windows 7 Areo interface, may have the worst tabbed UI I have ever seen as far as indicating which tab is the active one. Honest. If you are using IE9 now, just look at the row of tabs in your browser. Its just that little lightly shaded area that shows which is active. Really, Microsoft? That's the best you can do? Anyway, this has thrown me a few times. It is very easy to look at that row and think that you are replying in one thread, but in reality it is another.

Ok, end rant, and back to your regularly scheduled thread.
It's not IE9 but the iphone app. We're tracking it down, so whoever happens to see their posts ending up in the wrong thread, please shoot me a PM.


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      05-20-2011, 07:55 AM   #123
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Nice thread South!
Thank you!


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      05-20-2011, 07:57 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Metak View Post
Ok, lets talk then. A 3.2l FI M3 would have to have about 400hp and weight needs to be no more than 3400lbs for me to really get excited about the next M3.
400hp? The next version of the non-M I6 turbo will likely be hitting that sometime later in this decade. M is going to get closer to 500hp than 400hp, just watch. And they will do this even if they don't go with an I6 in an M3. Because they are going to have an I6 in some car M, whether that's a 1M or Z2 M or whatever.
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      05-20-2011, 07:57 AM   #125
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Thank you south. My rant about IE+Aero+tabs still stands though!

Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
It's not IE9 but the iphone app. We're tracking it down, so whoever happens to see their posts ending up in the wrong thread, please shoot me a PM.


Best regards,
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      05-20-2011, 08:05 AM   #126
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Thank you south. My rant about IE+Aero+tabs still stands though!
Hah, and I agree.


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      05-20-2011, 08:13 AM   #127
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I don't agree with your opinion about the small performance SUV market, but you make two other excellent points I hadn't seen mentioned (at least not in this thread).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jblack4083 View Post
As far as shoehorning the S63, it's ironic that it says it won't fit into the X3. That means the F3x must be HUGE lol.
That's a great catch, actually. My head was mostly going toward the Z4 and its lower sleek hood that might not accomodate the tall BMW V8 TT S63. However, you are right: how is the X3 going to be less able to hold an engine - any engine - than the 3 series? That makes no sense. And from what we've seen of the F30 mules, there is nothing to suggest these are bigger than an X3 (quite the oppposite, in fact), and thus I don't understand how the reasoning that the engin won't fit in an X3 even makes sense. Now, I still could potentially see this being an issue as far as Z4 goes. But like I said - it is about height as far as can tell, not length. After all, why does a V8 really need to be any longer than an I4? Or for that matter, a friggin I6 which any current BMW chassis will accomodate easily. So, then how is it cheaper to build an entire V6 to get a lower profile engine, than it is to just redesign the turbo configuration on the V8 to accomplish the same thing? Makes no sense.

Quote:
It makes sense that they would chop 2 cylinders off the S63 engine to make the new engine. Would the two less cylinders affect the Cylinder-Bank Comprehensive Manifold? I think it would because from what I understand the CCM connects the cylinders in opposing pairs. With only 3 pairs, that's not possible. CCM is one of the things that gives the S63 its lack of turbo-lag. I'm no engineer but thats just how I understood it.
Another excellent point. Indeed CCM is integral part of the S63, and is the main piece of technology that distinguishes it from the N63. Now, of course, even with an I6 design you obviously don't get CCM, so the argument could simply be that CCM is not going to be there regardless of what layout you use for a 6 cylinder motor, so all configurations should be on the table. Still I don't know why you throw out the baby with the bath water. You've got a great turbo 6 platform to build on - no need to start from scratch.

Quote:
Which leaves the N55 / N54... Personally I think this is what will end up happening. However, i think it will be heavily modified and have completely different characteristics.
Absolutely. Like I said in another post - think of a modern day RB26DETT with a heaping dose of BMW M special sauce for good measure. This is not going to be some N54 with a $2500 chip tune.
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      05-20-2011, 08:22 AM   #128
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It's a pity that there is no chance for the modified S65 Naturally aspirated engine
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      05-20-2011, 08:24 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
400hp? The next version of the non-M I6 turbo will likely be hitting that sometime later in this decade. M is going to get closer to 500hp than 400hp, just watch. And they will do this even if they don't go with an I6 in an M3. Because they are going to have an I6 in some car M, whether that's a 1M or Z2 M or whatever.
seems to me that an M-specific 3.2 liter turbocharged I-6 engine would easily output 440 hp given the expected output of the F10 M5. The only reason the S63 was lighter than the S54 was because the S54 used an iron block to have strong enough mains to take the 8,000 rpm rev-limit with such a long crank. Technological development should easily allow for an aluminum block to be used now and to only require a small (less than 1,000 rpm) reduction in rev limit.

Therefore, 440hp with a lighter engine is possible in my opinion. This would align with the strategy and leave M something cool to do.

Also, it seems to me like this would be the ideal area to get into some sort of sequential turbo arrangement like the 335d to get the thing to feel more naturally aspirated and to get the volumetric efficiency to allow higher revs, no?
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      05-20-2011, 08:26 AM   #130
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This is how I see it now:

1. they bolt two turbos on the current M3's engine, wow nothing a current M3 owner can't do in the aftermarket, and with warantees nearing the end by release of next gen that will be an attractive option. Boring to just keep the same engine no matter how epic the V8 is

2. n54/n55 - after all M3 owners scoffed at the 1M getting this engine now it is a candidate for the next gen M3? again dissapointing regardless of the HP and torque they get out of it.

3. detuning the M5's engine. suddenly the M3 sounds like the cayman/911 story.

4. v6 TT- honestly sounds like the only exciting option. I know it is not I6, but it could be balanced, lightweight, torque friendly, and if BMW keeps the size and weight of the next M3 in check (which means going backwards in weight) this could be a stellar car.


I also think 2 and 4 are likely because SCOTT said 4-cyl turbo in 1M and 6-cyl turbo in M3. The only reason BMW would opt for an 8-cyl is because audi Merc are doing it, or because they can't get the M3 weight down to allow a 6-cyl to make it fly.
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      05-20-2011, 08:31 AM   #131
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Quote:
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S56 here we come!
Fixed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cstavaru View Post
And the TT V8 does not fit the fuel consumption bill.
Generally speaking cylinder count will not be a factor in fuel consumption - rather displacement will. Theoretically, a 3L V8 should have roughly the same fuel economy as 3L I6 or 3L V6 if all are tuned with that goal in mind (while each delivering equivalent performance, obviously). The V8 would probably weigh the most, however, and that is something that is probably being taken heavily into consideration also.

But yes, of those three, the V8 will definitely have the least green image.
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      05-20-2011, 08:56 AM   #132
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Why do BMW just take S54 make direct inject and twin turbo.
This engine has a best noise, as engine, it's most close noise to F1. I'm absolutly loved it. In other hand V8 has just a lot power, but noise is like any other V8. It's already has 333 hp with direct inject will bring up to 50 hp and twin turbo is about 70-100 hp, so it could potentially be around 500 hp with amazing noise at 8000 rpm.
But it's just me.
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