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      05-20-2011, 08:58 AM   #133
mkoesel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epiphone3 View Post
The only reason the S63 was lighter than the S54...
I think you must have mean S65 there, yeah? I am pretty sure that the S63 is a lot heavier than an S54 (and by extension, S65) due to all the turbo infrastructure.

Quote:
...the S54 used an iron block to have strong enough mains to take the 8,000 rpm rev-limit with such a long crank.
My understanding was that it is the fact that the bigger bore means less space between the cylinders and an aluminum block was not strong enough to take the massive heat and side wall forces. The mains might have been an issue too, but man, there are some pretty stout motors out there with aluminum blocks and the mains don't seem to an issue. Whatever their reasons for going with the iron block, sure, the lower RPM of the turbo motor might mitigate all of it somewhat. But in the end you are still a slave to the 91mm bore center of the modern BMW I6 engine architecture. So, if you go with the 87mm bore of the S54, you only have 4mm of material between the cylinders. That's really tight. I don't know if aluminum will cut it in that application, but maybe with modern advances they can build an aluminum block to those specs that will meet reliability and longevity requirements.


Quote:
Therefore, 440hp with a lighter engine is possible in my opinion. This would align with the strategy and leave M something cool to do.
I still think they can get 450hp+ with 3L, since there have been 2L I4 engines with 300hp+. Though currently, I believe the most powerful 2L turbocharged motor in the US is 291hp in the Mitsubishi Evo, I am fairly sure there are or were 320hp+ versions elsewhere (400hp if you include the ultra-limited FQ400 in the UK).

Quote:
Originally Posted by phlfly View Post
Why do BMW just take S54 make direct inject and twin turbo.
See above. The iron block is one big disadvantage of that solution.
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      05-20-2011, 09:02 AM   #134
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The v8 is the only way to go.. If you put a v6 in the m3 AND the 3-series, the only difference is a little suspension and a turbo.
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      05-20-2011, 09:14 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carchitect View Post
The v8 is the only way to go.. If you put a v6 in the m3 AND the 3-series,
The 3 series is not getting a V6, at least not in the near future.

Quote:
the only difference is a little suspension and a turbo.
Actually, every 3 series - and, soon, every single car BMW sells, in fact - will be turbocharged.

Still, that hardly leaves "a little suspension" as the only difference between an M3 and a 3 series. The improvements made to the car to go from 3 to M3 are numerous and significant. I'd suggest a little research - it will be enlightening.
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      05-20-2011, 09:18 AM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slicer View Post
At the end of the day I don't care if they put a 4 cyl in the car as long as it's fast and handles well.
Great comment.

I do kind of care because I love seeing ///Motorsport tech in street cars, but in the end, I have to admit that you're right. I would be fine even if the next M3 is a hybrid with a CVT as long at it is fast, light and handles.

You have to ask youself what is most important -- performance or something else.
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      05-20-2011, 09:24 AM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post

See above. The iron block is one big disadvantage of that solution.
Why is that? Weight? But it could even better for sport car, with high temp it's stronger to with stand high temps.
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      05-20-2011, 09:25 AM   #138
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no turbo mambo jumbo

M3 should always be N/A. throttle response of FI cars will always be inferior.

i say go back to I6, 9k rpm and 380hp in lighter, say 3100lb chassis.

all else is garbage.
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      05-20-2011, 09:38 AM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
The 3 series is not getting a V6, at least not in the near future.



Actually, every 3 series - and, soon, every single car BMW sells, in fact - will be turbocharged.

Still, that hardly leaves "a little suspension" as the only difference between an M3 and a 3 series. The improvements made to the car to go from 3 to M3 are numerous and significant. I'd suggest a little research - it will be enlightening.
There are only 20% common parts between 3series and M3!

BUT ... Why are you so sure that the M3 is not getting an V6 and an N54/55 based I6 instead? Have you better inside informations?
Why do you think that the M-GmbH is not able to change their mind ... its 100% clear that in the begining the N54/55 based I6 was the absolut favored engine choise ... but at that time cost reduction is the overall/only thinking that was possible ... but if you take a look at cars like the upcoming M3 EVO and M3 CSL, it looks like the M Spirit is back again ... and an unique engine design was one off the M roots ... and an V6 derivate of the S63 and an S65 BiTurbo are the only engines that could fullfil this sprit.

Greets Uli_HH
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      05-20-2011, 09:41 AM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pyrat View Post
This is how I see it now:

1. they bolt two turbos on the current M3's engine, wow nothing a current M3 owner can't do in the aftermarket, and with warantees nearing the end by release of next gen that will be an attractive option. Boring to just keep the same engine no matter how epic the V8 is

I think you may be a bit mistaken on the magnitude of changes they would make if this would happen. See every owner can add FI, but not necessarily properly. ///M would not just slap turbos on her and call it a day. Everything would change: internals, ECU, in take, drive shaft, etc, etc.....why would they do that when aftermarket tuners don't do it for the S65? Because BMW likes to build reliable engines that don't blow up, not hold their breathe and say "please work, please work, please work......" Though someone adding FI to the car may not be thinking about reliability, BMW HAS TO, they financially can't afford not to

2. n54/n55 - after all M3 owners scoffed at the 1M getting this engine now it is a candidate for the next gen M3? again dissapointing regardless of the HP and torque they get out of it.

I scoffed at that engine in an ///M......but having owned it, if done right, this might be a very, very, athletic ///M engine.....

3. detuning the M5's engine. suddenly the M3 sounds like the cayman/911 story.

Not really: the Cayman and 911 are both smaller 2 door types.......the ///M5 and ///M3 are aimed at totally different car buyers, and the difference in their purposes seems to be growing....

4. v6 TT- honestly sounds like the only exciting option. I know it is not I6, but it could be balanced, lightweight, torque friendly, and if BMW keeps the size and weight of the next M3 in check (which means going backwards in weight) this could be a stellar car.

I disagree, but this is an opinion thing, so no one can be right or wrong

I also think 2 and 4 are likely because SCOTT said 4-cyl turbo in 1M and 6-cyl turbo in M3. The only reason BMW would opt for an 8-cyl is because audi Merc are doing it, or because they can't get the M3 weight down to allow a 6-cyl to make it fly.
Good points.....but I think considering an 8 cylinder is rooted in a bunch of factors, including a bunch we may not have even thought of. Who knows which factors weigh heaviest in the minds of BMW.....but I think you hit some of those reasons right on the head.

Cheers,
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      05-20-2011, 09:46 AM   #141
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Get ready for tri-turbo V6.

These news, and yesterday's track day makes me feel so good about my M3.
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      05-20-2011, 10:42 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antzcrashing View Post
1. Do it

2. Don't even think about it. N54 is old news, and don't talk to me about the "potential of it"

3. Do it

4. Don't even think about it. I don't care how many turbos or its output torque.
+1

Jesus. If they bi-turbo the S65, as it's already a very efficient engine... If they are replacing the internals, I'd guess somewhere ~425hp/400tq.
I'm not getting my hopes up, though.
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      05-20-2011, 10:54 AM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I think you must have mean S65 there, yeah? I am pretty sure that the S63 is a lot heavier than an S54 (and by extension, S65) due to all the turbo infrastructure.
The S65 is actually lighter than the S54.
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      05-20-2011, 10:58 AM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jblack4083 View Post
The S65 is actually lighter than the S54.
That's no surprise though, because S54 is very heavy. And this is kind of a tricky marketing on BMW side. Without mentioning that S54 was very heavy for it's size, they make it sound like they made a very light V8.
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      05-20-2011, 11:02 AM   #145
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M3 I6

I'd have to go with a twin turbo version of the next gen turbo I6. Put this in a lighter chassis, which they will since the CFRP will be more readily available for body panel switches going from F3x to the M3. I can't even imagine a V6- absolute BMW sacrilege.

Luxury goodies won't be going anywhere since so many want them. Ad long as the brunt of them are optional, what's the issue? Weight has creeped upwards for safety and features and size. I believe we are witnessing the plateau and next the reduction as lightweight technologies improve and costs associated with them decrease.

Also, for an M-specific engine, they could bore it out a bit for more displacement. We know the mass produced engines will be in 0.5L cylinders, but M could and should be able to modify that for their purposes.

Let's just hope the feeling full hydraulic steering rack makes it into the next M3....
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      05-20-2011, 11:08 AM   #146
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i dont mind turbos, just keep a high enough redline and great throttle response
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      05-20-2011, 11:11 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Metak View Post
Ok, lets talk then. A 3.2l FI M3 would have to have about 400hp and weight needs to be no more than 3400lbs for me to really get excited about the next M3.

400hp? The next version of the non-M I6 turbo will likely be hitting that sometime later in this decade. M is going to get closer to 500hp than 400hp, just watch. And they will do this even if they don't go with an I6 in an M3. Because they are going to have an I6 in some car M, whether that's a 1M or Z2 M or whatever.
Well, I'm sure BMW is more likely to go with bigger HP numbers, but I was just replying to the question of why no on was talking about a FI 3.0-3.2l I6. If BMW decided to go lighter(at or below 3400), with 400hp the power to weight would be better than the current M3. Like I said this approach is more appealing than shoe horning a bigger engine with more power in a heavier car.
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      05-20-2011, 11:16 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
BUT ... Why are you so sure that the M3 is not getting an V6 and an N54/55 based I6 instead? Have you better inside informations?
I don't have any inside information - it is just some basic deduction on my part.

For me, it does not stand to reason that BMW will develop a brand new engine configuration for an M3/X3M/M4/X4M/Z4M when they did not go that route for the M5/X5M/M6/X6M. I acknowledge that sometimes things don't fall into place nicely and you have to invest more money to get results. The S65 and S85 were born from that type of need.

But in the end, they've made the N63 work as the basis for an engine to power the latest generation of large M vehicles, and I have not heard a single compelling piece of information that leads me to believe that they cannot make the N54/N55 work as the basis for an engine to power the upcoming medium-sized M vehicles.

"Whenever possible, substitute constructions out of known entities for inferences to unknown entities" - Bertrand Russell

(Ok, so someone with a philosophy degree can go ahead and call me out for misuing that quote if I have - I can take it. )
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      05-20-2011, 11:18 AM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jblack4083 View Post
The S65 is actually lighter than the S54.
Yep. If you carefully read what I wrote, you will see that my answer actually supports that fact.
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      05-20-2011, 11:33 AM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlfly View Post
Why is that? Weight? But it could even better for sport car, with high temp it's stronger to with stand high temps.
When there are 500hp+ engines out there in cars that cost the same or less than an M3 and that have aluminum blocks, its clear that iron is not the answer. The only thing the iron block buys you is extra weight. And it is extra weight in one of the worst places - right over the front wheels (or, at least, in the front of the car).

The S63 or S65-turbo solutions have this same disadvantage. Either one will mean gaining engine weight vs. the current setup. An N54 or N55, on the other hand, weighs less than an S65.
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      05-20-2011, 12:08 PM   #151
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Turboed S54
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      05-20-2011, 01:10 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Yep. If you carefully read what I wrote, you will see that my answer actually supports that fact.
You're saying the S63 is heavier than both the S65 and S54? I get it now.

You wrote it in an obscure way
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      05-20-2011, 02:36 PM   #153
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Rumor: BMW Testing Four Engine Configurations for Next F30/F32 M3

How is everyone? The F3X M3 is going to be a V6 turbo motor! Not only because BMW have themselves announced this but by comparing how the S65 was previously engineered to be very much alike the V10 which has now been discontinued…. V8/V10 engines that have high revving natural aspiration.

The new F10 M5 engine has a reverse port flow bi-turbo engine. It has taken time to engineer this because a twin-power turbo X5M/X6M engine cannot be attached by motor mounts to a coupe without cutting a hole in the hood. The F10 M5's engine not only has less width and length: dropping 2 cylinders and direct injection. The height has also decreased dramatically compared to two snails sticking out of the top via revised bi-turbo engine.





Inside the new engine compartment expect to see a lot more plumbing, two functional front bumper intakes to feed more air into the Bi-turbo V6. I wouldn’t count on having a hood air inlet towards the windscreen. Speculation about hood intakes only being advantageous above 110km/h. Expect the same power…. 375 rwhp available with a true M-power button with 100hp on tap.


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      05-20-2011, 02:47 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harry sanghera View Post
How is everyone?
Terrific! Thanks for asking, Harry.

Oh, and as an aside: <hagrid voice>You're a wizard, Harry!</hagrid voice>

Quote:
The F3X M3 is going to be a V6 turbo motor! Not only because BMW have themselves announced this...
LOL, come now, Harry, this is not true at all. I'll tell you what, if you can show me any official (or even non-official) information from a BMW source or employee that confirms this, well, then I'll change my screen name to Hermione Granger. Sounds good, yes?
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