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      08-30-2011, 11:48 AM   #199
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Three turbos, if that pans out to be true just seems like alot of complexity. And the more complex you make something they easier it is for something to fail at some point in it's lifecycle.
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      08-30-2011, 07:50 PM   #200
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BMW does a lot of testing before putting a car out. They run the motors through many different conditions.

Only complex if you don't understand it.
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      09-19-2011, 02:29 PM   #201
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A couple of things I want to comment on here...

1) This was said several times, but again people continue to miss the point of the OP, THIS IS NOT REALLY AN M3 SEDAN, IT IS A MULE

2) On the HPFP concerns, frankly I would ignore it. No matter if you have a blown I6, or a NA V8, any car is going to have issues. That is why BMW has many of those things called engineers to figure it out when there are problems and fix it.

3) There is still a lot of speculation about what engine is under the hood. IDK ig the OP has true inside info, or what. If we trust the guys at M division to take a normal 3er and turn it into an absolute beast, why not trust them to take whatever engine they please and do the same thing?

No offense, but I think that alot of us speculating (myself included) forget that the guys working on the motors, turbos, and M3 project in general are professionals. This IS what they do for a living.

[Rant] [/Rant]
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      09-19-2011, 06:26 PM   #202
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^^^ not only is it what they do for a living but oh ya, theyre the best at it
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      09-20-2011, 03:21 AM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mstoner92 View Post
A couple of things I want to comment on here...

1) This was said several times, but again people continue to miss the point of the OP, THIS IS NOT REALLY AN M3 SEDAN, IT IS A MULE
2) On the HPFP concerns, frankly I would ignore it. No matter if you have a blown I6, or a NA V8, any car is going to have issues. That is why BMW has many of those things called engineers to figure it out when there are problems and fix it.

3) There is still a lot of speculation about what engine is under the hood. IDK ig the OP has true inside info, or what. If we trust the guys at M division to take a normal 3er and turn it into an absolute beast, why not trust them to take whatever engine they please and do the same thing?

No offense, but I think that alot of us speculating (myself included) forget that the guys working on the motors, turbos, and M3 project in general are professionals. This IS what they do for a living.

[Rant] [/Rant]
to 1) ... this quote is wrong(!!!) ... THIS CAR IS NO MULE ITS AN REAL M3 PROTOTYPE ... also Scott26 has confirmed the F80 M3 sedan, from which this car is first prototype !

to 2) ... but you couldnīt ignore that the S65 has nearly no known issues and on the other hand the N54 has many...

to 3) ... to the time the OP started this thread, the information were that the M-GmbH had made an descision towards the S55 based on the N55 ... now it seems so that they had changed this descision towards an engine concept they had patented last year ... and it could be that this engine would be an totally new developed one and not based on an existing BMW AG engine!
Also it could be that the M-GmbH drops the costly TriTurbo-Concept and chose an simplier BiTurbo FI system if this also fulfil the performence needs.

Greets Uli_HH
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      09-20-2011, 06:49 AM   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mstoner92 View Post
2) On the HPFP concerns, frankly I would ignore it. No matter if you have a blown I6, or a NA V8, any car is going to have issues. That is why BMW has many of those things called engineers to figure it out when there are problems and fix it.
BMW's HPFP issues with the N54 and N55 are numerous and well documented. This is why people are nervous about an even higher powered I6. It's a very realistic fear.

Oh, and the talent of BMW's engineers is absolutely irrelevant. The financial side of the business decides what issues are real or not, what issues get addressed or not.
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      09-20-2011, 05:44 PM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
to 1) ... this quote is wrong(!!!) ... THIS CAR IS NO MULE ITS AN REAL M3 PROTOTYPE ... also Scott26 has confirmed the F80 M3 sedan, from which this car is first prototype !
Whoa there cowboy ... how exactly do you know that the car in the pic is not a mule, but rather a prototype? Are you a BMW engineer working on the F80 M3? Were you the test driver of the car?

We know that there will likely be a F80 M3 sedan (although companies have been known to kill projects late in their development cycles, so it is still not a certainty that there will be a new M3 sedan). There are likely mules to test the M3 parts. There are also likely prototypes. What is shown in that picture is not known to the general public. Stating with certainty what is or is not shown in that picture necessitates you having a significant amount of insider information, which if you were actually privy to, you would not be able to post on this board (without getting fired and sued).
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      09-20-2011, 05:46 PM   #206
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Oh, and the talent of BMW's engineers is absolutely irrelevant. The financial side of the business decides what issues are real or not, what issues get addressed or not.
Absolutely irrelevant? In that case, BMW would be making Accords and Camrys.
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      09-21-2011, 02:19 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Foodle View Post
Whoa there cowboy ... how exactly do you know that the car in the pic is not a mule, but rather a prototype? Are you a BMW engineer working on the F80 M3? Were you the test driver of the car?

We know that there will likely be a F80 M3 sedan (although companies have been known to kill projects late in their development cycles, so it is still not a certainty that there will be a new M3 sedan). There are likely mules to test the M3 parts. There are also likely prototypes. What is shown in that picture is not known to the general public. Stating with certainty what is or is not shown in that picture necessitates you having a significant amount of insider information, which if you were actually privy to, you would not be able to post on this board (without getting fired and sued).
Its SO simple ... there would be an F80 M3 Sedan for sure and it would hit the market as early as Spring/Summer 2013 (likely first shown late 2012 as M3 Concept) and if would be the only new M3 on the market (if BMW not brings an F34 M3 GT ) ... so in this timeframe there is an high eventuality that this car is the first prototype ... an F30 mule make only sence if there wouldnīt be an M3 sedan(!) and also then it would make very little sence, because the 4er/M4 would be so different that you couldnīt test aerodynamic and dynamic parts on the F30 sedan.
This is the logical answer!
And yes I have some (half) insider information from two different sources and also collect infos in the whole net. I post nothing that was not confirmed from both sides.
But also firm insider infos could be changed by an new descision from BMW or the M-GmbH ... but today I could say the F80 M3 sedan and the timeframe is fixed(!) ... also the engine descision should be done. And the M3/M4 diversion is also highly probable.

Greets Uli_HH
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      09-21-2011, 09:00 AM   #208
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Absolutely irrelevant? In that case, BMW would be making Accords and Camrys.
Hello? Context much?

The talent of BMW's engineers is absolutely irrelevant when it comes to BMW's decision on how to handle their fiscal matters. It all comes down to a cost benefit analysis. The car could be engineered by Jesus and Ghandi for all we care.
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      09-21-2011, 09:01 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Foodle View Post
Stating with certainty what is or is not shown in that picture necessitates you having a significant amount of insider information, which if you were actually privy to, you would not be able to post on this board (without getting fired and sued).
Wrong-o.

Lots of insiders post here, the most notable being SCOTT (who is actually more than likely at least two people).
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      09-21-2011, 01:08 PM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
BMW's HPFP issues with the N54 and N55 are numerous and well documented. This is why people are nervous about an even higher powered I6. It's a very realistic fear.

Oh, and the talent of BMW's engineers is absolutely irrelevant. The financial side of the business decides what issues are real or not, what issues get addressed or not.

Yes, but my point is, that ANY car is going to have mechanical issues. You cant put thousands of pieces together, then subject those pieces to numerous stresses and forces, under many different conditions, and not have something fail a percentage of the time.

As far as the talent of the engineers being irrelevant? Give me a break. The financial side of the business can set the objectives and targets, but I have yet to hear of a bean counter sitting in the workshop designing BMW's. I would put the engineers at BMW up against any other team, and give them the same guidelines. Who do you think would produce the better result? To say that the financial side calls all of the shots is cynical. They know that if the product does not live up to consumer demands, it wont sell. Therefore, it is up to the engineers to build the product the masses want.
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      09-21-2011, 01:10 PM   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
to 1) ... this quote is wrong(!!!) ... THIS CAR IS NO MULE ITS AN REAL M3 PROTOTYPE ... also Scott26 has confirmed the F80 M3 sedan, from which this car is first prototype !

to 2) ... but you couldnīt ignore that the S65 has nearly no known issues and on the other hand the N54 has many...

to 3) ... to the time the OP started this thread, the information were that the M-GmbH had made an descision towards the S55 based on the N55 ... now it seems so that they had changed this descision towards an engine concept they had patented last year ... and it could be that this engine would be an totally new developed one and not based on an existing BMW AG engine!
Also it could be that the M-GmbH drops the costly TriTurbo-Concept and chose an simplier BiTurbo FI system if this also fulfil the performence needs.

Greets Uli_HH

In reply to your first point, I direct you to Paragraph 3, line 1 of the original post.
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      09-21-2011, 01:56 PM   #212
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Yes, but my point is, that ANY car is going to have mechanical issues. You cant put thousands of pieces together, then subject those pieces to numerous stresses and forces, under many different conditions, and not have something fail a percentage of the time.
You're correct but that generality is completely overshadowed by the realities surrounding BMW's turbocharged inline six engines and their terrible reliablility as compared to their naturally aspirated V8s for example.

Quote:
As far as the talent of the engineers being irrelevant? Give me a break. The financial side of the business can set the objectives and targets...
I stopped reading because like the other guy you are not getting the point at all. The best engineers in the world cannot do squat unless they are given the resources to do so. If you don't give your team of world class engineers the money to design a reliable product, then the product will indeed suck ass every single time. Truth.
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      09-21-2011, 01:58 PM   #213
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In reply to your first point, I direct you to Paragraph 3, line 1 of the original post.
That original post was first made more than a month ago.

We've since confirmed the green light for the F80 M3 sedan. Which is also corroborated by Scott26.

See http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=580641 and http://www.f30post.com/forums/showth...2#post10353132
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      09-21-2011, 07:14 PM   #214
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I like to think that everybody involved with a new BMW be it the designer, engineer and the marketeer are very much a team effort.

Everybody is allowed their opinion. Basically what you begin with is a jigsaw and you are trying to fit all the pieces and like you do with a jigsaw you evaluate each piece to determine whether it fits.

That is exactly what we do on a Monday morning. Because we have several options or pieces some that fit and some that don't. So we evaluate each piece whether involving engineering , powertrain or even design to submit the proposal to the BMW board. But each evaluation involves protototyping so they design and build prototype engines , suspensions etc to see what is possible and entirely suitable for the car.

Every solution is developed and tested and the results published and the engineers present their case. Every car prototype presented is not the final version , each idea goes under a stage of progression on the results of feedback , BMW like to challenge their designers , engineers , marketeers , associates etc... And that is why BMW is top of their game.
And when you think across in Ingolstadt they just want to beat the BMW.

A final sign off could be a "Frankenstein" prototype - using multiple solutions from each stage of testing but the finished result always speaks for itself.
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      09-22-2011, 01:56 AM   #215
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Given MB now sell their HP upgrade kit for C63, making it faster than current M3/E90, do you guys think that 450hp will do it for next gen M3? Unless they have some serious diet, I fear that it will still be an M3, but it's not going to be able to fend off C63/RS5+/IS-F II/CTS-V. It will be hard to make it competitive with the other, while keeping it slower than the M5 F10 ...
450hp/3500lb seems to be the magical limit (7.75hp/lb). If it's over 3700lb (F10 is 200lb more than E60 ... if same happen with M3 ... yikes).

Am I the only one concerned that BMW will rest on the success of the M3, and then lose customers due to unwillingness to compete/beat the M5 in performance?

I guess the option (outside going with the C63/RS5 is ... pop an ESS VT-500+ in the E9x ...).
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      09-22-2011, 06:47 AM   #216
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I like to think that everybody involved with a new BMW be it the designer, engineer and the marketeer are very much a team effort.
Absolutely, SCOTT.

I wasn't trying to start a big debate or derail the thread. Nor do I want to discuss the issues (very real issues, issues that BMW eventually acknowledged, though whether they have been satisfactorily addressed is still a matter of heated debate) with BMW's turbocharged I6 engines.

My point is simply that with a business, everything must come down to money. And obviously the turbo I6-powered BMW's are selling like hotcakes, regardless of any problems they may or may not have today. Thus, my point is that the incentive to put any more money into them - at least the ones on the market today - is very low. So then, no amount of input of technical nature from an engineer or anyone else on the team for that matter is relevant. What is relevant is that the products are making BMW loads of cash, and will continue to for the forseeable future, irrespective of what lingering reliability concerns may exist in the minds of current or past customers.

All IMHO, of course.
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