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      09-09-2011, 11:30 AM   #45
southlight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by formula M View Post
Any chance we can get a legible schimatic..?
I've added better images, now including the other schematics BMW supplied for this patent.


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      09-09-2011, 12:03 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by formula M View Post
Interesting schematics... any chance this can be in a flat 6 design ..? That is about the only way I can see all this plumbing.
Yea, they can apply this to an inline 6 as well. Can't tell why they didn't add one figure showing such a layout, though.


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      09-09-2011, 03:02 PM   #47
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It is a patent that can be utilised in a number of configurations and as the schematics show that it can be applied in any configuration then it can be developed and tested in any configuration.

Of course the M3 is but one option , but you have to take into consideration the next generation of X5M and X6M and amongst other ideas if everything builds towards M Division's stand alone products then they have to be unique and "stand apart" from the regular M cars especially when it will not be about image but showing that you are the best at doing the best, especially when you are so well advanced further than the competition for the cost effective use of materials.

But as we head into the IAA all focus by German media is currently aimed at the IAA but afterwards the first week and once the press conferences have died down and the execs have gone back to work it will be business as normal.

Autobild will be leading with a 3er special that will not only give you a preview of a closer render of the final appearance (as per usual Autobild before the launch) before the weeks countdown to the World Premiere.
But also that of the Touring , M3 and the 4er Coupe and Cabrio. And then after the 3er towards the end of the year you will see the new M6.
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      09-09-2011, 04:15 PM   #48
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Hey, is that the F31 on your avatar Scott?

Cant wait to order the F31 328i

Last edited by Touring; 09-09-2011 at 05:18 PM.
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      09-09-2011, 09:11 PM   #49
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this makes the most sense in terms of cost, reliability and being able to deliver. S63 engine with 2 cylinders cut off... 3.3l V6 TT
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      09-10-2011, 09:18 AM   #50
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I think next and next M3(M4) will be quad turbo with 4 cylinders
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      09-10-2011, 09:21 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Touring View Post
Hey, is that the F31 on your avatar Scott?

Cant wait to order the F31 328i
Yes well an up to date render. As I said after the IAA dies down the media will get back to normal and will have their last minute reports on the 3er. And then we are just weeks away from the premiere of the new 3er Sedan.
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      09-10-2011, 03:01 PM   #52
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V6!!!!!
this has to be a typo.. V6 is blasphemy in BMW's religion.
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      09-10-2011, 08:02 PM   #53
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I will be definitely disappointed if the M3/4 goes to the vag config

but I will welcome the V if they can keep whp at 450 and wtq at ≥ 450 w/ 7 second overboost to 500 and allow increased compression and higher boost w/ cooling capacity of V
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      09-10-2011, 10:45 PM   #54
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I haven't even finished reading the first page and I feel like I have to go back to school to understand any of this.
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      09-11-2011, 10:28 AM   #55
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This design is very similar to Borg Warner's R2S technology already in production. To meet MPG and CO2 reg's these sequential turbo designs with smaller engines will become increasingly popular.

http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/products/r2s.aspx
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      09-11-2011, 05:06 PM   #56
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TOO TECHNICAL FOR ME

I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE DETAILS AS LONG AS ITS GONNA BE VRRRRROOM FAST!

OH, and kick AUDI's & MERCEDES's A$$
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      09-11-2011, 07:40 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT View Post
Looks to me that they're describing a system in which all cylinders of each bank feed a single turbo. This turbo then feeds either A) output or B) a second turbo, depending on a (probably) ECU-actuated valve. So, hypothetically, you have a small turbo quickly spooling at the low-end. Then, at near-max spool, feeding a larger turbo. So rather than always feeding one turbo into the other, you bypass one for low-end torque and avoid lag.

Ref leaders 6, 7, 8, 9 - bypass the secondary turbo and 19, 20 - input from primary turbo into secondary turbo.

But that's just a bored engineer's lunch-break guess, don't sue me
this is how i see it as well.

as we speculate they are likely patenting the bypass/transition system rather than the sequential layout, which leads me to believe they may be on to something more radical that'll be harder for others to implement without the potential patented bypass/transition system.

its a stretch but couldn't they implement the rumored tri-turbo set up this way if they have a very efficient bypass/transition system? like CT said above, but instead of one primary turbo they use tiny twin turbos? it would be set up in the v like the s63 with the bigger turbo just behind them. i'm not an engineer so i dont know how practical it is vs a dual sequential.

but im not going to be surprised one bit if bmw moves to v6's for applications requiring higher power output.

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      09-12-2011, 01:28 AM   #58
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So, basically BMW is doing their version of the Audi B5 S4's TT V6?
And all this time....no wonder the tagline is "No dogmas".
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      09-12-2011, 01:15 PM   #59
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BMW Turbo V6? Watch out 1986 Grand National Owners...
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      09-12-2011, 01:30 PM   #60
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As everyone has commented, sequential turbos have been done in many configurations, possibly most notably the Supra TT.

However, I think the patent here is on the bypass system. This has a lot of advantages that a regular sequential TT doesn't have. On a regular sequential TT, IIRC the turbos were basically bolted to each other inline, one after another. The varying sizes provided a good combination of low-end torque and high-end power.

For example (smaller turbo on left with wastegate and larger secondary turbo on right):

and

You can see it's basically easy/easier to do this on an inline engine since there's only one exhaust manifold.

This system that BMW is talking about separates the turbos and allows bypass, so the small turbo is used 24/7 (under boost load) and provides great lowend torque and drive-ability to where most drivers probably don't even know it's a turbo. However, when the pedal hits the floor, the presumably larger secondary turbo can provide massive power gains, and as it's sequential it can come on without a sudden rush that makes control an issue.

Furthermore, it provides the ability to use different turbo sizes on a V engine, something that previously wasn't really done. V twin turbos like the 300ZX TT were bi-turbo with equal sized turbos on each exhaust bank.


Here is a TT (biturbo) engine. You can see the independent exhaust manifolds and requirement for two equal turbos.

At the end of the day you have a well balanced engine that can get far greater fuel economy than a traditional sequential turbo.

DISCLAIMER: This is my opinion, I didn't read the article, just the summary and some posts here. I just wanted to clarify the new part of this is the separation and bypass between turbos as well as sequential on a V engine.

Last edited by U235; 09-12-2011 at 01:39 PM.
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      09-12-2011, 01:34 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IS3andME View Post
So, basically BMW is doing their version of the Audi B5 S4's TT V6?
And all this time....no wonder the tagline is "No dogmas".
B5 was a biturbo, equal sized turbos on each exhaust manifold, and no ability to bypass one or the other.
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      09-19-2011, 11:15 PM   #62
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So what is the purpose of the 3rd electric turbo?

If it is running on electricity rather than exhaust, then is the purpose so that you are generating a little boost before you even stomp on the gas?
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      09-20-2011, 09:06 AM   #63
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Funny how people get crazy about heritage and tradition when it comes to engine architecture.

BMW may be proposing a V6, but rest assured if it actually goes to production, it will be THE BEST V6 EVER DESIGNED
and will probably win a string of awards along the way.
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      09-20-2011, 09:08 AM   #64
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BMW is a business, therefore I'm not surprised that it is discarding its individuality and uniqueness in the name of conformity and profit.
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      09-20-2011, 09:09 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elsabor67 View Post
i wonder if they will be top mounted like the M5/X5-X6 M?
I hope not hopefully it would be a front mount
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      09-20-2011, 09:14 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James T. Kirk View Post
Captain's Log: Stardate 43125.8, Funny how people get crazy about heritage and tradition when it comes to engine architecture.

BMW may be proposing a V6, but rest assured if it actually goes to production, it will be THE BEST V6 EVER DESIGNED
and will probably win a string of awards along the way.
Sorry, couldn't help myself! LOL.
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